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Landlord Locks Out Tenant

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  • 15-09-2016 10:58pm
    #1
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭


    Background here. But this is purely hypothetical but for the purposes of the discussion let's assume a measure of practicality might <<Mod deletion>>chime in and perhaps disabuse me of my misconceptions about how this would be handled.

    Basically Tenant (T) returns home to find the property they rent has had the locks changed. Landlord (L) has locked the tenant out for no reason other than he has.

    Obviously each party may go their separate ways but assuming T refuses and simply calls the guards what steps can and would be taken?

    Assuming the tenant breaks in what steps could be taken by either party?

    Mod
    reference to possible identities of parties deleted

    Assuming a locksmith is called and gains entry what steps would be taken?

    Edit: Feel free to reframe this if needed, especially 4ensic if he wants to continue this as I may not be framing it properly.


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    #2
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Ask this guy.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1165306.ece


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    #3
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Kings Inns or bust


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Ask this guy.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1165306.ece

    Rule 1: No paywalls press sites! :pac:

    Also I would say that the for the purposes of this discussion the parties have to be face to face. Now I can't read all that article but I'd assume if the tenant in this case had let themselves in no one would have bothered and the bank would have simply started legal proceedings. Again can;t read the full article so apologies if that's fully covered.


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    #4
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Kings Inns or bust


    Mod
    reference to possible identities of parties deleted

    Not having a good night, tonight. Sorry Nuac.


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    #5
    audi12
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 890 ✭✭✭audi12


    Kings Inns or bust wrote: »
    Background here. But this is purely hypothetical but for the purposes of the discussion let's assume a measure of practicality might <<Mod deletion>>chime in and perhaps disabuse me of my misconceptions about how this would be handled.

    Basically Tenant (T) returns home to find the property they rent has had the locks changed. Landlord (L) has locked the tenant out for no reason other than he has.

    Obviously each party may go their separate ways but assuming T refuses and simply calls the guards what steps can and would be taken?

    Assuming the tenant breaks in what steps could be taken by either party?

    Mod
    reference to possible identities of parties deleted

    Assuming a locksmith is called and gains entry what steps would be taken?

    Edit: Feel free to reframe this if needed, especially 4ensic if he wants to continue this as I may not be framing it properly.

    was the tenant not paying his rent by any chance


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    #6
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Kings Inns or bust


    audi12 wrote: »
    was the tenant not paying his rent by any chance

    I made a comment about the identities of certain members of this forum which was, rightly, deleted. The mods have been kind enough to leave the link to the background thread in place although this thread is a hypothetical.

    The assumption is rent and all other matters are in the tenant's favour.


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    #7
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The Gardai can do nothing if the tenant is out and doors are locked. If the tenant broke in and fixed the window or door they got in through then they are in and the Gardai can not remove them as it is their home which they are renting. If the LL does anything to threaten or harass the tenant the Gardai can take action.

    If the tenant wants to they can book into a bed & breakfast or guesthouse and immediately contact the RTB for further instructions. They will contact the LL and let them know the costly consequences of an illegal eviction which would include payment of the guesthouse or B&B bill as well as compensation for the stress and worry and upheaval and other associated costs to the tenant.

    The RTB will then at the tenants request open a case for the illegal eviction and that will take its course. The LL would possible lose tens of thousands of Euros.


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    #8
    audi12
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 890 ✭✭✭audi12


    Kings Inns or bust wrote: »
    I made a comment about the identities of certain members of this forum which was, rightly, deleted. The mods have been kind enough to leave the link to the background thread in place although this thread is a hypothetical.

    The assumption is rent and all other matters are in the tenant's favour.
    If the thread is hypothetical what is the point of it


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    #9
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    audi12 wrote: »
    If the thread is hypothetical what is the point of it

    The legal discussion i.e. whats this part of boards is for...hypothetically of course 😉


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    #10
    Call me Al
    Registered Users Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    Was there not a case at the weekend where a landlord changed the locks on a property and forcibly removed it's tenants? These tenants called the gardai who told the landlord to give a copy of the key to these tenants.

    I don't know what the consequences for not giving the key over would have been though..


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    #11
    cursai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    Call me Al wrote: »
    Was there not a case at the weekend where a landlord changed the locks on a property and forcibly removed it's tenants? These tenants called the gardai who told the landlord to give a copy of the key to these tenants.

    I don't know what the consequences for not giving the key over would have been though..

    They have no power or right to.


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    #12
    Call me Al
    Registered Users Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    cursai wrote: »
    They have no power or right to.

    Who is "they"? The gardai to tell the ll to hand over the keys? Or the ll to lock out tenants?


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    #13
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Call me Al wrote: »
    Was there not a case at the weekend where a landlord changed the locks on a property and forcibly removed it's tenants? These tenants called the gardai who told the landlord to give a copy of the key to these tenants.

    I don't know what the consequences for not giving the key over would have been though..

    Afaik in that situation the tenants were still in the property and the landlord changed the lock so had to provide a key for their tenants otherwise they could have been charged with criminal damage for changing the lock as the house was under the control of the tenants. The landlord can't lock tenants into the property and the tenants are entitled to a key when locks are changed.

    The landlord was probably hoping that turning up with a few lads from the gym would frighten the tenants off.


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    #14
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Call me Al wrote: »
    Was there not a case at the weekend where a landlord changed the locks on a property and forcibly removed it's tenants? These tenants called the gardai who told the landlord to give a copy of the key to these tenants.

    I don't know what the consequences for not giving the key over would have been though..

    The guards were a disgrace on that occasion. They should have arrested the tenants for assault. They have no business telling a landlord to handover a key to anybody. they couldn't have charged the landlord if he did not handover the key.


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    #15
    cursai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    Call me Al wrote: »
    Who is "they"? The gardai to tell the ll to hand over the keys? Or the ll to lock out tenants?

    the people that the post was purposely and intentionally referring to obviously.


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    #16
    degsie
    Registered Users Posts: 8,746 ✭✭✭degsie


    Hypothetical discussions are a mess. Scenario can change at op's will. What's the point.


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    #17
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    degsie wrote: »
    Hypothetical discussions are a mess. Scenario can change at op's will. What's the point.

    So talking through the varying possibilities isn't worthwhile?

    As these incidents typically happen outside of office hours it can be hard to get advice from official sources


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    #18
    cursai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    i think some people just like to discuss the lectures that they received during their law lectures the previous day....


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    #19
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Kings Inns or bust


    degsie wrote: »
    Hypothetical discussions are a mess. Scenario can change at op's will. What's the point.

    Whats the point in commenting on a thread with no point, seems there is no point?

    In linking this across I've obviosuly intorduced some new people to the forum, welcome, please stay a while, have a read and reserve judgement until you've had a chance to see how threads work in this forum. It's not to everyone's taste but while you'll find a number of places to discuss things on almost every other aspect on boards this forum is rather unique. As are many of it denizens :pac:

    To the others thanks for engaging in the discussion. Now for me to diagree with yous :D

    I don't see why a LL changing the locks is any different from me rocking up and parking my car across your front door. A person, who is not the occupier of the property is preventing access. The occiper and lawful tenant is being prevented from entering their dwelling - one of the most jellously guarded constitutional protections.

    I fail to see how the guards could not be compelled to keep the peace while the OP gains entry.

    I'm open to being corrected/convinced here.


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    #20
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Kings Inns or bust


    cursai wrote: »
    i think some people just like to discuss the lectures that they received during their law lectures the previous day....

    I admire your aspirational position that law students do anything with lectures or the resulting 'notes' until approximately five minutes before the exam.

    Also following up on some of your 'smart' comments in the other thread. They're grand if you are that smart but I suspect you'll fail to enage here for, well lets just say - implied reasons. I'll argue all day long with someone like 4ensic whos backing up his points, it might even get heated, I've no doubt some jibes will be thrown. If all you have though are smart comments that'll become apparent rather quickly I'd imagine.


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    #21
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Kings Inns or bust wrote: »
    ...I fail to see how the guards could not be compelled to keep the peace while the OP gains entry.

    I'm open to being corrected/convinced here.

    How do you "compel" a guard.

    I would expect they won't do anything or attend unless some else happens.


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    #22
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Kings Inns or bust


    beauf wrote: »
    How do you "compel" a guard.

    I would expect they won't do anything or attend unless some else happens.

    Guards are compeled by law to carry out their duties. One might disagree with the law here, especially as asserted by me, but they are compelled to enforce it.

    I must go and dig up the source on that...


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    #23
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    What breach of the law has happened to require them to attend.


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    #24
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Kings Inns or bust


    beauf wrote: »
    What breach of the law has happened to require them to attend.

    Please read through OP, feel free to reframe it. If your reframing of it is; there is no crime here they won't attend then thank you for your contribution.


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    #25
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Kings Inns or bust wrote: »
    Guards are compeled by law to carry out their duties. One might disagree with the law here, especially as asserted by me, but they are compelled to enforce it.

    I must go and dig up the source on that...

    I'm open to correction, but I'm not sure you'll find a source for that.

    I had a similar conversation with my brother about this in the past and he told me nothing compells them to actually use their powers, if so then Garda discretion would be illegal. Statute gives them powers, not obligations.


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    #26
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Kings Inns or bust


    GM228 wrote: »
    I'm open to correction, but I'm not sure you'll find a source for that.

    I had a similar conversation with my brother about this in the past and he told me nothing compells them to actually use their powers, if so then Garda discretion would be illegal. Statute gives them powers, not obligations.

    As long as it's not too far away from the pretty pictures on the front of the manual I'll find it :P


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    #27
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Afaik in that situation the tenants were still in the property and the landlord changed the lock so had to provide a key for their tenants otherwise they could have been charged with criminal damage for changing the lock as the house was under the control of the tenants. The landlord can't lock tenants into the property and the tenants are entitled to a key when locks are changed.

    The landlord was probably hoping that turning up with a few lads from the gym would frighten the tenants off.
    Would this not be false imprisonment?


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    #28
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Would this not be false imprisonment?
    Only if the LL locked the tenants into the property.


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    #29
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Only if the LL locked the tenants into the property.
    Ah, that's how I interpreted your post. I am not familiar with the actual story


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    #30
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Would this not be false imprisonment?

    Changing a lock is not the same as locking them in, they could probably exit the property without restriction, but once out could not regain entry.


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    #31
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Kings Inns or bust wrote: »
    As long as it's not too far away from the pretty pictures on the front of the manual I'll find it :P

    You may be looking for a while :)

    I'm curious is there any Irish case law regarding a duty of care owed compelling Gardaí go act? I don't believe so?

    Case law in the US and the UK have shown that is not the case in those jurisdictions, and they were just about an onligation to act in general, they dealth with threats to life.


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