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LinkedFinance - new website

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  • #842
    at9qu5vp0wcix7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 738 ✭✭✭at9qu5vp0wcix7


    A 36 month Grade Y loan is up now, 15% interest rate. Interesting...


  • #843
    scheister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭scheister


    Mila Calm Ax wrote: »
    A 36 month Grade Y loan is up now, 15% interest rate. Interesting...

    funded in 2 hours 8 minutes


  • #844
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    scheister wrote: »
    funded in 2 hours 8 minutes
    People see 15% and goes ooh shiny; no major surprised I guess but it's depressing esp. with what will come in a proper crash :/


  • #845
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    Nody wrote: »
    no major surprised I guess but it's depressing esp. with what will come in a proper crash :/

    I don't really understand this, what is depressing and what will come in a proper crash


  • #846
    Strettie11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Strettie11


    A couple of things on Be Sweet Company ..

    Funded by 101 lenders
    Average bid Size €198
    5 bidders funded 38.7% of loan
    1 bidder funded 21.15% of loan
    Autobids appear to have been 20.9% of loan

    Maybe this is what Nody is depressed about

    There are a few worrying items about this loan that came to light in a 10 minute google search . These 15% loans worry me, the rate suck people in without an opportunity to do research or ask questions.

    A director of this company gave an interview in August 2015 to the Irish Times

    She says in that article the company turnover was €1 million but these accounts are only showing €118k ???

    also she says they got start up finance of €50000 from Ulster bank only €26000 listed on Aug 2015 balance sheet was more loans received during 2016

    Also no wages in accounts but opening office in Hong Kong

    Wish all lenders the best time will tell


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  • #847
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    I don't really understand this, what is depressing and what will come in a proper crash
    There has been no crash in P2P lending in Ireland but taking USA as example the return dropped to 1% average for a site wide portfolio of loans. Now here's the depressing part; because people clearly have no idea what they are doing.

    First of all the loan is for 3 years at 15% to
    The Be Sweet Company is looking to invest in packaging stock for the upcoming Christmas season.
    So the company people trust money with is loaning money for 3 years to pay for one Christmas season; will they loan more for next season (and it's not exactly unknown that Christmas season is a big thing or that it had a sudden date change to account for). This is before we start talking about this type of spend is normal yearly spend, invoices with longer duration etc. is the normal route but yet TBSC wants to have third party funding for this at 15%? That alone should raise eyebrows and make people run screaming for the hills in panic.

    However beyond the issues what the cause of the need of funding they are also to late (Tesco would start stocking Christmas stock in September in their Warehouse as an example on retail dates, production would start in July) and how they would get it to Asia in time it's also the fact it's a grade Y or the worst possible investment grade from a financial perspective. 15% return over 3 years is very poor ROI for the riskiest investment they offer; esp. with relatively risk free company bonds sit in the 6 to 8% range from major companies and even smaller stock such as DHT which has a physical asset with real value offers 18% yearly AND at least has a secondary market (and DHT is a high risk option don't get me wrong but I'd say it's lower risk than this loan while offering more money; secondary market and actual physical assets to secure some value against it).

    So what does that add up to? Well when the crash comes (and it always comes) and the people who saw this as a brilliant investment will see huge losses showing up and swear of investing in general. The problem with that is then reflected on in people not bothering to follow up on how their pensions are doing ("they are with someone somewhere") or how much they pay for the it all (feeding useless pension funds doing nothing to earn the money). This being driven by the fact they took out high risk loans which banks would never consider even at twice the rate without understanding the financial costs or risks from it all. That's what depress me; people will be burned (to bad, so sad) but the knock on effect of that burn has most likely much bigger repercussions which will impact people's life that much more in my opinion :(


  • #848
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    Nody wrote: »
    There has been no crash in P2P lending in Ireland but taking USA as example the return dropped to 1% average for a site wide portfolio of loans. Now here's the depressing part; because people clearly have no idea what they are doing.

    First of all the loan is for 3 years at 15% to
    So the company people trust money with is loaning money for 3 years to pay for one Christmas season; will they loan more for next season (and it's not exactly unknown that Christmas season is a big thing or that it had a sudden date change to account for). This is before we start talking about this type of spend is normal yearly spend, invoices with longer duration etc. is the normal route but yet TBSC wants to have third party funding for this at 15%? That alone should raise eyebrows and make people run screaming for the hills in panic.

    However beyond the issues what the cause of the need of funding they are also to late (Tesco would start stocking Christmas stock in September in their Warehouse as an example on retail dates, production would start in July) and how they would get it to Asia in time it's also the fact it's a grade Y or the worst possible investment grade from a financial perspective. 15% return over 3 years is very poor ROI for the riskiest investment they offer; esp. with relatively risk free company bonds sit in the 6 to 8% range from major companies and even smaller stock such as DHT which has a physical asset with real value offers 18% yearly AND at least has a secondary market (and DHT is a high risk option don't get me wrong but I'd say it's lower risk than this loan while offering more money; secondary market and actual physical assets to secure some value against it).

    So what does that add up to? Well when the crash comes (and it always comes) and the people who saw this as a brilliant investment will see huge losses showing up and swear of investing in general. The problem with that is then reflected on in people not bothering to follow up on how their pensions are doing ("they are with someone somewhere") or how much they pay for the it all (feeding useless pension funds doing nothing to earn the money). This being driven by the fact they took out high risk loans which banks would never consider even at twice the rate without understanding the financial costs or risks from it all. That's what depress me; people will be burned (to bad, so sad) but the knock on effect of that burn has most likely much bigger repercussions which will impact people's life that much more in my opinion :(

    I think I am with you on this particular loan, particularly people doing an 'autobid' on this, or indeed any loan, how is one supposed to do any type of due diligence on a potential loan before investing if you have an 'autobid' on, madness imo. Now some people may know the principals involved in this business, have the utmost faith in them, or may just want to give them a digout anyway, which is fair enough if you are doing it after making a genuine call yourself. I has a look at this this morning, after I saw the post here and after it was filled, and was somewhat surprised that it had filled so comfortably, it wouldn't be for me though. I'm pretty much pulling out at this stage anyway.

    I don't know what you mean by 'the crash', a worldwide financial crash, a Linked Finance crash, or a Be Sweet crash, funnily enough if it's a financial crash there is every possibility that Be Sweet might survive it as indeed they might survive a Linked Finance crash, they mighn't of course as well.

    I have no idea how this could follow on to somebody's pension!!


  • #849
    BrokenArrows
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,531 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    Cute Hoor wrote: »

    I have no idea how this could follow on to somebody's pension!!

    I think he was just referencing that most people blindly invest in a pension fund that they know nothing about. In this case people are blindly investing because they see 15%.


  • #850
    Dream123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 ✭Dream123


    Sceach ....

    You asked in the q&a about artisan gourmet food in relation to their previous loans ..... I posted a 'question' over the weekend to provide the relevant info as I had lent to both of their previous loans .... But LF appear to have since deleted it!! It was viewable on the site yesterday, gone today

    For info the 2 loans were:
    Loan 1: 15k at average rate of 10.11% with 12 payments to go, loan up to date
    Loan 2: 30k at average rate of 12.75% with 22 payments to go, loan up to date

    I am really surprised that LF deleted by question from the thread but I guess its in line with recent trend towards avoiding questions / incomplete answers

    Personally I'm taking it as a sign to get my money out


  • #851
    tomwaits48
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tomwaits48


    tomwaits48 wrote: »
    also waiting over 24 hours to withdraw funds

    cash eventually recieved, 15th August. Sending it over to Mintos.


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  • #852
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    I don't know what you mean by 'the crash', a worldwide financial crash, a Linked Finance crash, or a Be Sweet crash, funnily enough if it's a financial crash there is every possibility that Be Sweet might survive it as indeed they might survive a Linked Finance crash, they mighn't of course as well.
    A general financial crash or simply decline (i.e. not necessary a 2008 Lehman crisis) would be enough to tip many businesses into the red inc. those that borrow for normal spend over three years. Be Sweet would also be hit even harder due to selling low premium goods (i.e. they ask a premium but they are not Gucci or a big globally recognized brand) which is one of the first thing people tend to cut.
    I have no idea how this could follow on to somebody's pension!!
    Apologies for being to vague but investment in shares/P2P/bonds/funds/apartments etc. tends to go in waves in the general population. Most people only start investing when it's almost at the peak, make a profit (which proves they are experts of course) and invest even more. When the crash comes and they start taking losses they will stick with it to not sell "until the price recovers" until they finally give up and sell anyway at a lower rate (due to not being to afford, giving up etc.). With that boom/crash swing the interest of investing tends to go with it as well; when things are going up people are more interested in their shares/pension and tend to take a lot more risk; when things crash they simply walk away from it all not caring anymore being burned out on the whole idea of investments and learning more.

    That's the connection between a P2P crash and people's pensions; as their personal investments fail they tend to ignore the pensions (or listen to the salesmen, sorry advisers) which has a far more significant impact. Losing 25k on P2P lending now and ignoring your pension means you'll lose probably 4x the value by retirement between fees and poor value creation but people don't see the impact of the 20 to 30 years of their pension growing from today. The difference of 2% (between fees and poor growth) over 30 years based on 20k invested and saving 500 a month with 10% average growth is the difference between getting 968k and 1.536k or about 50% final value. However because they got personally burned on the 25k P2P lending they don't care to educate themselves anymore and don't want to have anything to do with investments, funds etc.

    That's been my personal experience from blogs/twitter accounts to friends and colleagues. Everyone love investments as long as things go up but once things go south they suddenly don't care anymore in any area...


  • #853
    Strettie11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Strettie11


    Very worrying to see questions being deleted from Q&A's


  • #854
    tadcan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭tadcan


    I am so glad to be on Boards where there is independent analysis of the loans, since I frankly don't know what to look for. Thanks Strettie11, Nody, Cute Hoor, etc.


  • #855
    spudwould
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭spudwould


    Strettie11 wrote: »
    Very worrying to see questions being deleted from Q&A's

    After they deleted the Q's another 7 questions have been directed to the LF team .. and have been ignored, which is even more worrying, as this shows their contempt for the lenders!
    "Just pay up and shut up" :cool:


  • #856
    Strettie11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Strettie11


    Little Strettie arrived a week early so as I struggle with some of the night feeds I can only use an excuse of sleep deprivation that resulted in me clicking to read the new LF terms & conditions when the message came up to accept them :D

    Anyway there are a few strange clauses in there


    10.0 The role of Linked Finance
    10.1 Our role is to facilitate prospective Borrowers and Lenders in negotiating, concluding and completing Loans via Linked Finance in accordance with the terms of this Agreement. We are not a party to any Loan Contracts or Loan Parts (save where we act as a Lender in our own right, in which case we are only a party to the Loan Contracts or Loan Parts we enter into as a Lender in accordance with Section 4).

    So LF can invest in their own loans but they have no clause in there that they must notify other lenders under what lender name they are investing or that lenders must be made aware they are investing in a loan

    Also unlike other T&C's for UK P2P's they have no clauses relating to LF employees investing in loans, that they are indentified to other lenders if they do.

    The other strange one is they outline 14 criteria that must be met by a Borrower to be approved for a loan. But 2 clauses later they state


    Linked Finance at its sole discretion reserves the right to publish loan requests that do not meet all of the above criteria.

    Basically LF can ignore all the borower criteria clauses so lenders have no idea which or how many of the criteria the borrower has passed, loans that did not meet these 14 criteria should be highlighted by LF so we are fully aware.

    I checked a couple of UK P2P T&C's and they detail the strict circumstances under which loans that do not meet the main borrower criteria will be accepted so as a lender you know exactly where you stand.

    Anyway back to sterlising bottles!!


  • #857
    Dream123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 ✭Dream123


    Congrats strettie!!


    To update on my deleted question ....

    I got a mail from LF looking to speak by phone, I think this was prompted by me posting on the boards thread here. I responded by email that I had lost confidence in LF and if they wanted to explain the 'confusion' as they described it then I'd prefer it in writing. This was their response ....



    Thanks for getting back to me, happy to converse over email, no problem at all.

    In terms of feedback, the Q&A is designed for direct communication between lenders and borrowers. To give you some insight, a borrower is emailed every time a question is posted on the Q&A. As you can imagine, we are trying to ensure a smooth process for both borrowers and lenders, hence why we are currently exploring other options to improve communication.

    While we encourage feedback from all lenders, it is preferable that this is done directly with Linked Finance as opposed to the Q&A forum. In this instance, your comment was deemed as not a direct query for the borrower and so was removed.

    As mentioned, I understand that the move to the fixed rates has caused some queries. We are keen to answer as many lender queries as possible but as you can appreciate, it is difficult for us to engage with every query in a manner that is deemed appropriate by the lenders.

    The fixed rate loans have been funding very quickly and this has meant that processing of funds, finalising of contracts, scheduling new loans and managing payouts have become a priority as our timeline to complete these tasks is much shorter.

    We certainly do want to engage with lenders as often as possible and would encourage you, and other lenders to reach out to us directly with any feedback our thoughts. As you can probably tell from the time of this email being sent, we are working very hard to improve our service for all parties involved and appreciate your patience.

    As per your comment, I am aware of lender communication on boards.ie and am happy for you to share this response if necessary.


  • #858
    Squall Leonhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭Squall Leonhart


    Strettie11 wrote:
    Little Strettie arrived a week early so as I struggle with some of the night feeds I can only use an excuse of sleep deprivation that resulted in me clicking to read the new LF terms & conditions when the message came up to accept them


    Congratulations Strettie :)


  • #859
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    Strettie11 wrote: »
    Little Strettie arrived a week early so as I struggle with some of the night feeds I can only use an excuse of sleep deprivation

    Plenty of sleep deprivation to come!!
    Heartiest congrats!


  • #860
    Strettie11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Strettie11


    There a couple of things about that LF response

    - we the lenders are the lifeblood of LF, no lender money, no loans, no LF business
    - Dream123 your "Q" on the Q&A was providing information Sceach16 had requested so you were essentially lessening their workload
    - lender communications has been highlighted as an issue for a long time and it is remiss of LF not to have solved it. LF are the ones that have decided that prefered communication will be by email instead of an online forum where you could answer many similar queries with one effort instead of multiple times via email.
    in fact LF if there was not the committed core on this forum you would have many many more queries to deal with.

    Anyway I know I mentioned before about us as a group getting organised I hope to have something pulled together early next week


  • #861
    tadcan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭tadcan


    Congrats to you and the other half. Take it easy, you have more important things on your plate.


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  • #862
    manafana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,487 ✭✭✭manafana


    The new process has rendered questions pointless anyway, loans go up and only then can you question, surely makes sense to have 24hr period for questions to be raised before Loan can go live.


  • #863
    Squall Leonhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭Squall Leonhart


    manafana wrote: »
    The new process has rendered questions pointless anyway, loans go up and only then can you question, surely makes sense to have 24hr period for questions to be raised before Loan can go live.

    That actually sounds like a fair and decent suggestion. A lot won't bother reading up as they'll let their autobid do it's thing, but it'd be good for those who may be interested in a manual bid to have the facts before bidding.


  • #864
    at9qu5vp0wcix7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 738 ✭✭✭at9qu5vp0wcix7


    LF bidding anonymously on their own loans sounds so dodgy, especially given that several bidders alone have been making up a significant fraction of the money raised in recent loans - something Strettie highlighted on Monday. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100683955&postcount=846

    It is possible for them to completely manipulate the 'grading' system - if they like the look of a loan, they could potentially just give it a bad grade and reap the reward of increased interest. Nonetheless, they have access to far more information on every single loan in order to help them make their decision. The only way to even the playing field is if they disclose every piece of information they have on the business, or to publicly disclose which loans they bid on.

    I wonder do borrowers when LF are bidding on their own loans?


  • #865
    PanAC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 ✭PanAC


    manafana wrote: »
    The new process has rendered questions pointless anyway, loans go up and only then can you question, surely makes sense to have 24hr period for questions to be raised before Loan can go live.

    I made the suggestion to LF :-

    "Is it possible, with your new autobid system, to make even the most rudimentary investment decision, by first sighting the financial and organisational details of prospective borrowers? This could easily be achieved by publishing the details before bidding/fulfilling commenced."

    "thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be feasible to operate an automated bidding tool like Autobid and link it to individual financials or organisational details for each loan request."

    I have never used Autobid, I like to be responsible for my own stupid decisions.

    Blinkered Finance seem to believe that their lowest form of marketing waffle is good enough for the Lenders. They could do a lot better!


  • #866
    Strettie11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Strettie11


    Nice to see LF staff had to time to start hiding the loan offers and Q&A's on fully funded bids again . :) Amazing how quick LF can respond when loan analysis started appearing . You win this one LF as I shake fist in the air

    I think Manafana suggestion is excellent that bid information is published pre bidding opening so analysis and questions can be asked.

    But will not happen


  • #867
    Strettie11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Strettie11


    Mila Calm Ax wrote: »
    LF bidding anonymously on their own loans sounds so dodgy, especially given that several bidders alone have been making up a significant fraction of the money raised in recent loans - something Strettie highlighted on Monday. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100683955&postcount=846

    It is possible for them to completely manipulate the 'grading' system - if they like the look of a loan, they could potentially just give it a bad grade and reap the reward of increased interest. Nonetheless, they have access to far more information on every single loan in order to help them make their decision. The only way to even the playing field is if they disclose every piece of information they have on the business, or to publicly disclose which loans they bid on.

    I wonder do borrowers when LF are bidding on their own loans?


    LF could easily say we do not bid on any platform loans but they need to build confidence with lenders that there is full disclosure.
    the T&C's allow it with no requirement in their T&C's that they should notify lenders if they are bidding on loans. This needs to be amended on T&C's


  • #868
    Strettie11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Strettie11


    In LF T&C's they indicate that third party is in place to collect repayments from borrowers and repay lenders if LF should stop operating or if platform should cease.

    Does anyone know or is it detailed on the website the name of this 3rd party


  • #869
    spudwould
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭spudwould


    Strettie11 wrote: »
    There a couple of things about that LF response

    - we the lenders are the lifeblood of LF, no lender money, no loans, no LF business
    - Dream123 your "Q" on the Q&A was providing information Sceach16 had requested so you were essentially lessening their workload
    - lender communications has been highlighted as an issue for a long time and it is remiss of LF not to have solved it. LF are the ones that have decided that prefered communication will be by email instead of an online forum where you could answer many similar queries with one effort instead of multiple times via email.
    in fact LF if there was not the committed core on this forum you would have many many more queries to deal with.

    Anyway I know I mentioned before about us as a group getting organised I hope to have something pulled together early next week

    I asked a question to LF on a loan Q&A and all Q's are now moderated as the status shows as "Waiting for moderation". LOL .. now I know how a convict or a North Korean resident feels .. back to the cold war days :p:D:P


  • #870
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    spudwould wrote: »
    I asked a question to LF on a loan Q&A and all Q's are now moderated as the status shows as "Waiting for moderation". LOL .. now I know how a convict or a North Korean resident feels .. back to the cold war days :p:D:P

    I think the solution to that is to post the questions asked here with the name of the loan. Slowly more investors are finding this thread and it's a vital source of information. LF are well aware of this thread. They should be ashamed of the the flaws and faults that are highlighted here. Making people aware is vital in improving LF for all investors.


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  • #871
    Underground
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,569 ✭✭✭Underground


    On the face of it, these new fixed rate loans seem to be getting funded at some pace. Scary that people seem to have actually complied with the CEO's orders in that farcical email and switched their autobid settings on. Why would you be so loose with your money like that?


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