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Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    ?? I heard her say the case is "ongoing".
    Why would that prevent a cold case review, though?

    It's ongoing since 2011.

    Depending on who you believe.


    "This week it was confirmed that the Serious Crime Review Team, known as the Cold Case Unit, was to review all aspects of the investigation.

    However, there has already been a separate review investigation ongoing since 2011 - the Northern Regional Review Team - headed up by an assistant commissioner."



    http://m.rte.ie/news/2016/0715/802652-mary-boyle/




    "Gardaí have confirmed that cold case detectives are reviewing the Mary Boyle disappearance case.

    This evening gardai dismissed reports that a new investigation is underway, saying the case has never been closed."



    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/garda-confirm-mary-boyle-cold-case-review-34878309.html


    The coppers don't seem to know what they're supposed to be saying about this case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭Laika123


    Just saw this on the Irish Mirror site, Mary's sister saying the "cold case" is a sham, I agree with her.

    Twin sister of missing Mary Boyle brands Garda review of cold case as 'a sham'

    The twin sister of missing schoolgirl Mary Boyle has claimed the Garda cold case review into her sister’s disappearance is “a sham”.

    Ann Doherty recently led two marches in the hope of new witnesses coming forward with information into her sibling’s disappearance.

    Little Mary vanished from near her grandparents’ home in Cashelard outside Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, in 1977.

    Gardai recently said they were launching a new investigation into the case and took part in a search on land near the family’s farm. However, nothing was found.

    Ann claimed the move was designed “to mislead the public and give an impression the gardai are taking the case seriously – it is my belief they are not”.

    She said: “I believe it is nothing more than a sham to delay justice further and an outrageous waste of public money.”

    In her statement, Ann added she does not think detectives want to get to the bottom of her sister’s disappearance.

    irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/twin-sister-missing-mary-boyle-8591273


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Laika123 wrote: »
    Just saw this on the Irish Mirror site, Mary's sister saying the "cold case" is a sham, I agree with her.

    Twin sister of missing Mary Boyle brands Garda review of cold case as 'a sham'

    The twin sister of missing schoolgirl Mary Boyle has claimed the Garda cold case review into her sister’s disappearance is “a sham”.

    Ann Doherty recently led two marches in the hope of new witnesses coming forward with information into her sibling’s disappearance.

    Little Mary vanished from near her grandparents’ home in Cashelard outside Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, in 1977.

    Gardai recently said they were launching a new investigation into the case and took part in a search on land near the family’s farm. However, nothing was found.

    Ann claimed the move was designed “to mislead the public and give an impression the gardai are taking the case seriously – it is my belief they are not”.

    She said: “I believe it is nothing more than a sham to delay justice further and an outrageous waste of public money.”

    In her statement, Ann added she does not think detectives want to get to the bottom of her sister’s disappearance.

    irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/twin-sister-missing-mary-boyle-8591273



    I might've missed it but are the Mainstream media totally ignoring her statement about her mother from Sunday night?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    I might've missed it but are the Mainstream media totally ignoring her statement about her mother from Sunday night?
    Are you sure they're even aware of it?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Just reading today's Irish Times over lunch. Article on page 6 on this (same article as this: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/twin-sister-of-mary-boyle-says-garda-review-of-donegal-girl-s-case-is-a-sham-1.2749642)

    No mention of the mother but given the potential for libel, can't say I'm surprised!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,289 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    kbannon wrote: »
    Just reading today's Irish Times over lunch. Article on page 6 on this (same article as this: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/twin-sister-of-mary-boyle-says-garda-review-of-donegal-girl-s-case-is-a-sham-1.2749642)

    No mention of the mother but given the potential for libel, can't say I'm surprised!

    An awful lot of what Anne has said, if the article is accurate, seems to be nothing but supposition. Very little evidence in fairness. Maybe she is prone to this type of accusation and her mother realises this.
    I am still of the opinion myself that the investigation was poor but if she has evidence of what happened then why not produce it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,289 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    I might've missed it but are the Mainstream media totally ignoring her statement about her mother from Sunday night?

    Just saw this. I was away for a few days so anyone care to enlighten me on what the statement contained please?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Just saw this. I was away for a few days so anyone care to enlighten me on what the statement contained please?

    13882587_513648388824078_6240281941902678129_n.jpg?oh=29bb035cbd5af9336ac315759ec20571&oe=58139297


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,289 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    kbannon wrote: »
    13882587_513648388824078_6240281941902678129_n.jpg?oh=29bb035cbd5af9336ac315759ec20571&oe=58139297

    Very little new in it and it seems to lack evidence.
    How does she know for a fact that her sister was sexually abused?
    If I were her i'd name names and take the consequences if i felt i was right


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Can I ask what cause they had to question him? Genuinely interested to know.

    They do not release such information.
    So no one apparently knows (except whoever was involved at the time I suppose).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Do you think believe there is sufficient grounds for them to arrest anyone else?
    It does not matter one whit what I think. They obviously do not believe they have sufficient evidence to do so.
    Were they at fault for too readily accepting original explanations?
    I do not know they did 'readily accept' the original explanations ..... do you? Your question seems to be based on something I di not know to be a fact.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭PaddyWilliams


    They do not release such information.
    So no one apparently knows (except whoever was involved at the time I suppose).

    Oh, I know that much. But you said 'I believe the Gardai had sufficient cause to question McMahon under caution.' I was more interested what lead you to believe that?
    Seeing as none of us actually have any indication whatsoever that McMahon had any connection to this case, I can't myself see what would lead the Gardaí to have any cause at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    But given to whom?

    The NYPD said they'd solved the case in 5 minutes but I didn't see any convictions.
    I think you will find that the only thing said was they believed they knew ...... just like a lot of people posting here. That is not evidence nor sufficient cause for charging someone. I feel sure that the majority of the gardai involved in the case over the years also had a belief they knew.
    This case is an example of how not to investigate a missing persons case though, that I accept.
    Nearly 40 years ago the family's privacy and feelings were more taken into account than these days, so it is hard to judge and looking back and applying the norms of today to that time just does not work well.
    Family members are often the first suspects these days; back then they were more likely to be the last.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    can we not agree though that if the mother suspected it was a certain person

    & That person's own family member reported days later their belief that he was the suspect

    & the fact the 2 cops on the case believe he was the suspect but the very dodgy policing going on at the time stopped them from arresting him, or indeed getting a confession out of him.

    can we not agree that this man be taking in for questioning?? ( preferably imo by impartial non - Ballyshannon gardai)

    they seemed to arrest McMahon on the fact that he was a child molester (against boys) who once lived in Cashelard as a kid


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 568 ✭✭✭mikeymouse


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    can we not agree though that if the mother suspected it was a certain person

    & That person's own family member reported days later their belief that he was the suspect

    & the fact the 2 cops on the case believe he was the suspect but the very dodgy policing going on at the time stopped them from arresting him, or indeed getting a confession out of him.

    can we not agree that this man be taking in for questioning?? ( preferably imo by impartial non - Ballyshannon gardai)

    they seemed to arrest McMahon on the fact that he was a child molester (against boys) who once lived in Cashelard as a kid

    McMahon is on this database so it's hardly surprising they brought him in
    Also did the family member who reported his suspicions say this person had "history"?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    I think you will find that the only thing said was they believed they knew ...... just like a lot of people posting here. That is not evidence nor sufficient cause for charging someone. I feel sure that the majority of the gardai involved in the case over the years also had a belief they knew.

    Nearly 40 years ago the family's privacy and feelings were more taken into account than these days, so it is hard to judge and looking back and applying the norms of today to that time just does not work well.
    Family members are often the first suspects these days; back then they were more likely to be the last.

    I completely agree, but it is evident that those norms are still being applied.

    The difference here is that our own police force have no suspect.

    No suspect.

    You might say they do.

    I'll tell you they don't and they dont want one.

    If they did they'd have said it.

    If they had ever wanted to they could have called someone's bluff, but no, they won't even do that.

    There is a natural reluctance to criticise possible failings in any original investigations.

    No one's past work on the case is going to come under scrutiny in this either.

    We also know that there's an unfounded allegation about political interference.

    There are other allegations of impropriety regarding policing in south Donegal in that era.

    We also know that proven policing impropriety in Donegal in general has earned a special place in history.

    This active excusing of mistakes being made in the original investigation needs to stop.

    The norms of today should be applied today.

    They are not being applied.

    They have no suspect.

    They have been accused of doctoring statements by someone who now claims they reported seeing a car in the area.

    They still have no idea how to approach the case, in 2016.

    That may have been excused in 1977, today it is ridiculous.

    It is a missing persons' case in which they publish age progressed images of the child.

    For fear of stepping on someone's toes, or some other reason that I cannot fathom.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    mikeymouse wrote: »
    McMahon is on this database so it's hardly surprising they brought him in
    Also did the family member who reported his suspicions say this person had "history"?

    That's not a database it's a wordpress website.

    This isn't a database either but there's another few on it that they'll have to eliminate if they want to go down that road:


    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/10/22/a-corner-of-ireland/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    found out something else which may be nothing or may be a very dark twist on this whole thing

    A member of one of the families who spoke out in the 1985 documentary- leaked online a few nights ago- about corruption in Ballyshannon/Bundoran has been missing since 2003
    http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=3695&Lang=1 He was a geologist. He had expertise in something called the Ballyshannon Unconformity. It's an anomaly, a very unusual site, 1.6 billion years old. He wanted it declared a World Heritage Site.
    Developers had plans for the site..375 houses in total I believe he objected.
    He disappeared. The last place he was seen was at Mass. His car was found on cliffs. His body wasn't found


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,770 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Seems like from Anns recent statement that she might be getting ready to name the suspect in public. I wonder what the consequences are here. He would have a case against her for defamation but I severely doubt he would take it as that would mean him being cross examined in court about the murder.

    What about prejudicing a trial? I remember Charlie Haughey got off scot free on the basis that he couldnt get a fair trial in Ireland. That was back then though, more recently Seanie Fitzpatrick tried to claim the same because of all the media coverage on the banking crises but the courts told him to take a hike. Im not sure how it would pan out in the Boyle case though as the circumstance are different.

    Would naming the suspect actually force the Gardai hand into doing something? I would like to think so but Im not sure it would. No media organisation would report it because the suspect could then sue them for defamation rather than Ann Docherty. She could use Facebook to name him and the mainstream media would report on that but they wouldnt name him themselves. So it would become a kind of online thing where everyone knows the name but it never appears in the papers/on radio.

    In fact the only way the suspect could be named and reported on by the media is if a TD did it in the Dail under privledge. Im sure there are TDs who have an interest in the case but its a whole other matter to be naming people as murderers in the Dail. It would however get the name out on a national scale as the media cant be sued for words uttered in the Dail. A long shot perhaps but lets face it this 5 year long cold case review is a con, the Gardai are stalling here. Sometimes extraordinary circumstances need extraordinary actions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 568 ✭✭✭mikeymouse


    That's not a database it's a wordpress website.

    This isn't a database either but there's another few on it that they'll have to eliminate if they want to go down that road:


    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/10/22/a-corner-of-ireland/

    maybe not a database as such, but a list nonetheless, which contains most ,if not all of the few names on the Broadsheet(wordpress?) article.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Seems like from Anns recent statement that she might be getting ready to name the suspect in public. I wonder what the consequences are here. He would have a case against her for defamation but I severely doubt he would take it as that would mean him being cross examined in court about the murder.

    What about prejudicing a trial? I remember Charlie Haughey got off scot free on the basis that he couldnt get a fair trial in Ireland. That was back then though, more recently Seanie Fitzpatrick tried to claim the same because of all the media coverage on the banking crises but the courts told him to take a hike. Im not sure how it would pan out in the Boyle case though as the circumstance are different.

    Would naming the suspect actually force the Gardai hand into doing something? I would like to think so but Im not sure it would. No media organisation would report it because the suspect could then sue them for defamation rather than Ann Docherty. She could use Facebook to name him and the mainstream media would report on that but they wouldnt name him themselves. So it would become a kind of online thing where everyone knows the name but it never appears in the papers/on radio.

    In fact the only way the suspect could be named and reported on by the media is if a TD did it in the Dail under privledge. Im sure there are TDs who have an interest in the case but its a whole other matter to be naming people as murderers in the Dail. It would however get the name out on a national scale as the media cant be sued for words uttered in the Dail. A long shot perhaps but lets face it this 5 year long cold case review is a con, the Gardai are stalling here. Sometimes extraordinary circumstances need extraordinary actions.


    From what I am told by people who were at a screening of the Documentary tonight in Belfast & Q&A session after it, he might be named sooner rather than later

    I think this would be a wrong move but then it's getting desperate it seems like no one with any clout is listening .

    I know of one TD who I spoke to who said he would be willing to use parliamentary privilege to name him should he have to , whether he would or not is a different matter


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,770 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    From what I am told by people who were at a screening of the Documentary tonight in Belfast & Q&A session after it, he might be named sooner rather than later

    I think this would be a wrong move but then it's getting desperate it seems like no one with any clout is listening .

    I know of one TD who I spoke to who said he would be willing to use parliamentary privilege to name him should he have to , whether he would or not is a different matter

    I agree that naming him is less than preferable and could mess things up further. But if it comes down to a straight choice between Garda inaction letting a child murderer evade justice then Ann might eventually feel she has no other choice. I wouldnt blame her either, if it were me I would feel like shouting this mans name from the rooftops. It must be incredibily frustrating for her.

    Tactically the best thing to try to do is get a time line from the Gardai about when this latest cold case review is supposed to be completed. If it is any longer than six months Id say naming him would better than depending on the Gardai, they have after all been reviewing the case since 2011 which is complete baloney in anyones book- it doesnt take 5 years to review a case with limited possibilities.

    If the TD is willing to name in the Dail that would be the best outcome. Not only would it get national attention it would finally force the Gardas hand into actually questioning him as a suspect which is something right now they are not prepared to do.

    Its a sad day for our justice system if it had to come to that but sometimes you can chip and chip away at a stone wall of secrecy and it will never fall down. Sometimes a grenade is far more effective to bring it down and IMO its been almost 40 years now, the time of waiting for the Gardai to actually do their job has long since passed.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    From what I am told by people who were at a screening of the Documentary tonight in Belfast & Q&A session after it, he might be named sooner rather than later

    I think this would be a wrong move but then it's getting desperate it seems like no one with any clout is listening .

    I know of one TD who I spoke to who said he would be willing to use parliamentary privilege to name him should he have to , whether he would or not is a different matter
    Playing Devils advocate here but what will naming an individual do? There's still no evidence against them.
    Furthermore, people making assumptions on someone being guilty of abducting and killing a child and then publicly shaming them has been done in error before. What if this individual did not do it?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2 msbruree


    I believe the Garda were given instructions from the powers above not to investigate missing child Mary Doyle!!!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    mikeymouse wrote: »
    maybe not a database as such, but a list nonetheless, which contains most ,if not all of the few names on the Broadsheet(wordpress?) article.

    Point taken, but if it's a road they're going to go down, in 40 years they've arrested just one of them.

    And he was only arrested because he was in prison. It was a clever move in one regard.

    It's going to be a slow process.

    The ones that have admitted to being at the scene were never arrested.

    They need to apply today's standards to the case instead of continuing with the time warp policing standards of 1970s Ireland.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    kbannon wrote: »
    Playing Devils advocate here but what will naming an individual do? There's still no evidence against them.
    Furthermore, people making assumptions on someone being guilty of abducting and killing a child and then publicly shaming them has been done in error before. What if this individual did not do it?

    Agreed. It would have to be done in context of her claiming that her mother has identified the suspect and gave her this name.

    But nothing might come of doing it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭Smondie


    Was it Lynn Boylan that brought up the case in the EU? Is there protection to name him under previliage there?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 134 ✭✭Jadaol


    I don't think he needs to be named.

    I think if she was to release a statement through her solicitor outlining the facts as she believes them to be. i.e.

    that a person was identified to her and others as having been involved in Mary's disappearance.

    One of those persons who named this individual was Mary's own mother Ann.

    This information was passed to the gardai.

    2 guards who worked the case state they believe this same man should be formally questioned.

    That all begs the question why hasn't this mean been formally interviewed by the gardai in the 5 years since the cold case review started.

    This person is now very elderly and interviewing then in a formal setting is a matter of urgency.



    Most people don't know much of the details.

    For her next statement in this vein, release it as an ad in any paper that will carry it. A big ad so no one can miss it


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Smondie wrote: »
    Was it Lynn Boylan that brought up the case in the EU? Is there protection to name him under previliage there?

    But what would it achieve if she did?

    It still doesn't compel the gardai to do anything?

    It may even strengthen any resolve not to do anything as a result.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Apparently there is no new evidence.
    None at all.
    There was not sufficient evidence to arrest, charge and hopefully convict someone in the last few decades, and nothing new has surfaced that I am aware of.
    Throwing out a name in the media is not going to end well.
    If the person cannot be show to be guilty then there can be legal repercussions.
    If new evidence came to light later that person could get off because of pretrial bias .... conviction in the media before any court case.
    The best that can be hoped for at present, is that the puzzle of the disappearance is resolved .... maybe by the child's body being discovered.


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