Louise O Neill

pumpkin4life · 03-08-2016 10:10AM

Her book is garbage, (characters all talk in the same voice, irritating Americanized colloquisms etc, unnecessary use of adjectives so that the writings chunkier than a meat stew) but the worst kind of garbage.

There's a new trend in a lot of literature/the arts: call it SJW literature or victim porn,whathaveyou.

The idea is that genuine, fascinating characters and stories are thrown out the window in favor of stories about critical theory bull****. Hence Asking for It has a hilariously cartoony bit where the protagonist gets bombarded with comments (all men of course), through facebook on how she deserved to be raped because thats what men like to do. Tell me, how many men would act like this? 0.00000000000001%? But the rape culture can't make me money, no?

Hence, reading and liking a book like Asking for It is nothing more than virtue signalling, to show how good of a PERSON YOU ARE!!!TM because you have the right, current hip opinions. The Ghostbusters movie is another great example of this.

**** people like this, Una Mullahy/Lousie O Neil etc. They just want to create more conflict and pain between people where there is no need to do so.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 03-08-2016 10:22AM

I still don't know to laughed or be concerned i.e. either she's a bullsh*t artist of the highest order or she is quite mentally fragile and in need of help.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-o39neill-when-youre-apologising-for-apologising-then-you-know-you-have-a-serious-problem-413225.html

livedadream · 03-08-2016 10:29AM

pumpkin4life wrote: »

**** people like this, Una Mullahy/Lousie O Neil etc. They just want to create more conflict and pain between people where there is no need to do so.

opposed to what you just wrote which is not creating any conflict at allll

everyones entitled to their opinion mate, while i may disagree with Milo lets say, that doesnt mean i think he should be silenced entirely.

yes there has to be a line in regards to abusing people however many people are way to quick to become offended these days.

let yourself be offended but accept that some people are just arseholes and will do **** on purpose to wind you up.

Decent Skin · 03-08-2016 10:29AM

Aubree Handsome Gerbil wrote: »

I still don't know to laughed or be concerned i.e. either she's a bullsh*t artist of the highest order or she is quite mentally fragile and in need of help.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-o39neill-when-youre-apologising-for-apologising-then-you-know-you-have-a-serious-problem-413225.html

"I sat in front of my therapist....."

As matter-of-fact as that, as if everyone had one ?

Either mentally fragile or Americanised alright; those are the only two contexts in which I've seen therapists be viewed as the norm.

Edit: Made the mistake of reading on..... Aside from it being Sindo-level narcissism that I'm surprised at the Examiner for entertaining. anyone who assumes that men are reared "not to take no for an answer" and who uses "cisgender" can quite frankly expect to be dismissed, and adding those to the earlier mansplaining means, well, let's just say it explains her having a therapist and she should meet them more often or get a better one.

Why part of her recovery involves being allowed to write in a national newspaper is beyond me, mind....

RayM · 03-08-2016 10:32AM

Decent Skin wrote: »

"I sat in front of my therapist....."

As matter-of-fact as that, as if everyone had one ?

Either mentally fragile or Americanised alright; those are the only two contexts in which I've seen therapists be viewed as the norm.

It's almost like you think there's something wrong with having a therapist.

This thread's one of the nastiest I've seen in a while. After Hours has gone to the dogs.

kupus · 03-08-2016 10:35AM

i don't think anyone is being mean to her. Just truthful.
Since when did criticism become bullying.
is this down to generation special snowflakes being told that "you can do it" or you come last in a race and you get a medal regardless.

are parents to blame for mollycoddling too much telling their kids they are entitled to this that or the other.

ancapailldorcha · 03-08-2016 10:38AM

Zxclnic wrote: »

Funny, I've never used the words 'Patriachy' or 'Mansplaining' either, please point to where I have if you disagree. Thanks.

I wasn't referring to you.

Decent Skin · 03-08-2016 10:38AM

RayM wrote: »

It's almost like you think there's something wrong with having a therapist.

This thread's one of the nastiest I've seen in a while. After Hours has gone to the dogs.

Nothing like that.

No issues with having or needing one; not everyone is lucky in life.

My issue was clearly stated as being how "normal" she thought having one was.

RayM · 03-08-2016 10:47AM

Decent Skin wrote: »

Nothing like that.

No issues with having or needing one; not everyone is lucky in life.

My issue was clearly stated as being how "normal" she thought having one was.

As opposed to "abnormal"? I mean, how should a person refer to seeing a therapist? Should they perhaps have the decency to be embarrassed about it, cloak any references to their mental health in coy euphemisms instead? Maybe they should simply not mention it at all, lest someone should accuse them of being "mentally fragile".

Lux23 · 03-08-2016 10:50AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Would you not think that it's a bit sexist to see every man as a potential rapist?

But what is the alternative? Go about thinking nobody rapes? Rapists don't walk around looking like rapists. They can be your Dad, brother, friend, neighbour, work colleague, guy you talk to on the bus etc. I guess I just have to be a bit sexist.

kunst nugget · 03-08-2016 10:53AM

Decent Skin wrote: »

Nothing like that.

No issues with having or needing one; not everyone is lucky in life.

My issue was clearly stated as being how "normal" she thought having one was.

I'm not understanding your problem here. There shouldn't be any stigma attached to going to see a therapist and I commend her honesty in that part. I actually found the first part of that article interesting. It's when she tried to extrapolate her experience into wider gender politics that it completely fell apart and became ridiculous.

tritium · 03-08-2016 10:56AM

Lux23 wrote: »

But what is the alternative? Go about thinking nobody rapes? Rapists don't walk around looking like rapists. They can be your Dad, brother, friend, neighbour, work colleague, guy you talk to on the bus etc. I guess I just have to be a bit sexist.

So where should we stop?

Perfectly reasonable to see every man and woman as a domestic abuser? Every woman as a false rape alleger? Every man as a misogynist and every woman as a misandrist? None of those walk about with a label tattooed on their foreheads. Are those reasonable assumptions so?

kunst nugget · 03-08-2016 10:57AM

Lux23 wrote: »

But what is the alternative? Go about thinking nobody rapes? Rapists don't walk around looking like rapists. They can be your Dad, brother, friend, neighbour, work colleague, guy you talk to on the bus etc. I guess I just have to be a bit sexist.

So it's an all or nothing situation? All men are potential rapists until they rape and then they are actual rapists. Jesus...

Zxclnic · 03-08-2016 10:59AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I wasn't referring to you.

Well hang on a moment.
You put a quote from me at the top of your post, which would imply that any criticisms or points made in your 'reply' would be addressing the post you were answering.
So I would ask, with respect, that the next time you use a quote from me and you want to attack or denounce specific words such as 'Patriarchy' or 'Mansplaining' then you should have the decency to let the other posters - some late to the thread- know that those specific words were not used by me but by someone else.
I do think that's only fair.

livedadream · 03-08-2016 10:59AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

. It's when she tried to extrapolate her experience into wider gender politics that it completely fell apart and became ridiculous.

i think im the same,

i get that shes trying to discuss her experiences but sometimes i think she cant see the wood from the trees,

not everything comes down to men are evil or bold or whatever.

sometimes some people are assholes and sometimes those people are men,

the same as they can be women.

my only issue with her is that no matter what her experience she seems to bring it down to gender.

Decent Skin · 03-08-2016 11:03AM

RayM wrote: »

As opposed to "abnormal"? I mean, how should a person refer to seeing a therapist? Should they perhaps have the decency to be embarrassed about it, cloak any references to their mental health in coy euphemisms instead? Maybe they should simply not mention it at all, lest someone should accuse them of being "mentally fragile".

No, not as opposed to "abnormal"; as opposed to "normalised", and as far as I am aware there is no such word "abnormalised", although given some of the words this thread has introduced me to I suspect that those looking to take offence might contradict me on that too.

Talk about going from 0-100 in one post!

Scenario 1:

"I've been seeing a therapist for anxiety/since my dad died/since I lost my job..."

"That's rough, hope it's helping. Fancy a cuppa?"

Scenario 2:

"I was with my therapist...."

"Christ! You have your own one ? What's up ?"

Context is important, particularly when someone is chucking femysoginistic insults and womgeneralisations at all the hated nonmetrosexuals that she girlmagines have it boyeasy and will rape her if given the chance.

ancapailldorcha · 03-08-2016 11:05AM

Zxclnic wrote: »

Well hang on a moment.
You put a quote from me at the top of your post, which would imply that any criticisms or points made in your 'reply' would be addressing the post you were answering.
So I would ask, with respect, that the next time you use a quote from me and you want to attack or denounce specific words such as 'Patriarchy' or 'Mansplaining' then you should have the decency to let the other posters - some late to the thread- know that those specific words were not used by me but by someone else.
I do think that's only fair.

That is fair. I quoted your post because you seemed to be defending Ms. O'Neill's views. My comments were squarely aimed at these columnists, not you.

Wibbs · 03-08-2016 11:08AM

Decent Skin wrote: »

Why part of her recovery involves being allowed to write in a national newspaper is beyond me, mind....

It sells DS. Simple as that. Crazy gets clicks©. Opinion pieces such as hers and all the rest male and female, Right and Left generally sell more advertising than "hard" news. They engender fellowship if you buy into their stuff, WTF if you don't, but most of all don't get ignored. That silly cow Katy hopkins(?) who "writes" for UK rags a perfect example. Being hated or feted gets the bums on seats, but the former is easier to sustain.

My gauge is whether it's a cynical thing on the part of the writer(it always is on the part of their bosses). Hopkins knows exactly what she's doing, Milo Yiannopolololololos another(a shrink would have a field day with that guy. In denial more than an Egyptian Ibis). They may believe some of their script, but it is still a script screamed loud from the stage to reach the cheap seats.

Of our local kind, I'm not so sure it is cynical, or that's low down on the list. Sure they'll egg themselves on and rev themselves up to internal screams and the like, but all writers and artists do really. It's their thing. IMH they do believe this stuff far more than the more professional foreign types who are paid to troll.

I'd also believe that of the local kind because I have known people like them, particularly a certain type of woman. Middle class (though recently), coddled from birth, daddy is either absent or overpowering(and constantly sought for approval regardless), mammy(or mommy these days) is on the lower rung competing for daddy. Late adolescence is difficult, particularly the leap from college to cubicle, so can remain stunted in a teenager vibe. And like the moody teenager trope self involved and easily freaked out. The ones I knew were pre interwebs and pre large scale availability of therapy and other avenues. They usually grew out of it.

Wibbs · 03-08-2016 11:09AM

Lux23 wrote: »

But what is the alternative? Go about thinking nobody rapes? Rapists don't walk around looking like rapists. They can be your Dad, brother, friend, neighbour, work colleague, guy you talk to on the bus etc. I guess I just have to be a bit sexist.

I honestly can't imagine living with worldview that skewed. I really can't.

tritium · 03-08-2016 11:12AM

RayM wrote: »

Decent Skin wrote: »

"I sat in front of my therapist....."

As matter-of-fact as that, as if everyone had one ?

Either mentally fragile or Americanised alright; those are the only two contexts in which I've seen therapists be viewed as the norm.

It's almost like you think there's something wrong with having a therapist.

This thread's one of the nastiest I've seen in a while. After Hours has gone to the dogs.

Yes there have been some nasty comments from early in this thread

RayM wrote: »

No, just whiny men-children who think being white and male is oh-so-difficult.

Case to point above. Strangely im not sure you're referring to both sides in your comment though

silverharp · 03-08-2016 11:12AM

Lux23 wrote: »

But what is the alternative? Go about thinking nobody rapes? Rapists don't walk around looking like rapists. They can be your Dad, brother, friend, neighbour, work colleague, guy you talk to on the bus etc. I guess I just have to be a bit sexist.

its a matter of how you frame it. I have a daughter that will hit teenager in a few years, I will be all about reducing risks if out and about on a general assumption that very small % of men are bad actors in one shape or another. Just like I will advise my son that a small % of women are bad actors and be careful of ending up in a situation of having false rape allegations levied by some girl.
What I would hope is that they go though life confidently and smartly , not paranoid and or giving of a vibe of blatant distrust of the other gender.

TSMGUY · 03-08-2016 11:15AM

Wibbs wrote: »

It sells DS. Simple as that. Crazy gets clicks©. Opinion pieces such as hers and all the rest male and female, Right and Left generally sell more advertising than "hard" news. They engender fellowship if you buy into their stuff, WTF if you don't, but most of all don't get ignored. That silly cow Katy hopkins(?) who "writes" for UK rags a perfect example. Being hated or feted gets the bums on seats, but the former is easier to sustain.

My gauge is whether it's a cynical thing on the part of the writer(it always is on the part of their bosses). Hopkins knows exactly what she's doing, Milo Yiannopolololololos another(a shrink would have a field day with that guy. In denial more than an Egyptian Ibis). They may believe some of their script, but it is still a script screamed loud from the stage to reach the cheap seats.

Of our local kind, I'm not so sure it is cynical, or that's low down on the list. Sure they'll egg themselves on and rev themselves up to internal screams and the like, but all writers and artists do really. It's their thing. IMH they do believe this stuff far more than the more professional foreign types who are paid to troll.

I'd also believe that of the local kind because I have known people like them, particularly a certain type of woman. Middle class (though recently), coddled from birth, daddy is either absent or overpowering(and constantly sought for approval regardless), mammy(or mommy these days) is on the lower rung competing for daddy. Late adolescence is difficult, particularly the leap from college to cubicle, so can remain stunted in a teenager vibe. And like the moody teenager trope self involved and easily freaked out. The ones I knew were pre interwebs and pre large scale availability of therapy and other avenues. They usually grew out of it.

That's a great point. Before I gave up on reading the Guardian, there was this hysterical, man-hating feminist called Jessica Valenti and I read practically all of her articles just because so they were clickbaity and transparently ridiculous. I really enjoyed vigorously shaking my head and thinking "YOU'RE WRONG, YOU ****ING IMBECILE!." Clickbait is the future of online journalism and we're all responsible.

Zxclnic · 03-08-2016 11:17AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That is fair. I quoted your post because you seemed to be defending Ms. O'Neill's views. My comments were squarely aimed at these columnists, not you.

I've already said that I thought Ms. O'Neill' views were 'Pants', yes I used that specific word.
However, given your reply above, I do now accept that you weren't being deliberately misleading, and that any confusion caused was inadvertent.
Btw, I actually agreed with some of the other points you made in that post. Good luck to you.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 03-08-2016 11:32AM

I for one see absolutely nothing wrong with seeing a therapist or other mental health professional. Great to have them.

It's the general content of the article I think shows where she is coming from, everything is so dramatic and extreme.

But it's great to see she is seeing a professional.

biko · 03-08-2016 11:38AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Violence and exploitation of women happens. It is not a fictional Loch Ness monster. Ridiculing it with such a comparison, shows some men, and society, have a long long way to go when they dont even acknowledge the problem exists. And unfortunately, the sad truth may be that they never will - it is simply beyond the capability of the sex.

Are you a man? If so you have just contradicted yourself.

kupus · 03-08-2016 11:46AM

TSMGUY wrote: »

That's a great point. Before I gave up on reading the Guardian, there was this hysterical, man-hating feminist called Jessica Valenti and I read practically all of her articles just because so they were clickbaity and transparently ridiculous. I really enjoyed vigorously shaking my head and thinking "YOU'RE WRONG, YOU ****ING IMBECILE!." Clickbait is the future of online journalism and we're all responsible.

It is a good point from wibbs and It's kind of like Howard stern. his fans that listened to everything. Hung on his every word and just enjoyed the show.
Then on the other side people who hated him actually listened to him the most.....just to see what he would say next.
They listened cos they wanted to be offended.

Wibbs · 03-08-2016 11:53AM

Aubree Handsome Gerbil wrote: »

It's the general content of the article I think shows where she is coming from, everything is so dramatic and extreme.

And American middle class Woody Allen with it. There's lots of cool stuff to culturally import from America, their national sport of neurosis is hardly one of them, nor is their daft gender war with its pantheon of saddos and harpies and hysterics on both sides.

TBH I'm not so sure therapy is of value for some. IMH and IME it increases the self involvement, which the fecking problem in the first place. Then again I consider too much of current psychology to be at best very lax with actual science, fashionable therapies that are "in" now that'll be out next year(mindfulness the mode de jour, CBT was the new black before it) and even strays into downright quackery.

TSMGUY wrote: »

Clickbait is the future of online journalism and we're all responsible.

Yep. If the clicking reading public didn't want to agree or be wound up by it editors wouldn't push it. We are responsible for it. This sorta thing often reminds me of when princess Diana was killed in Paris. Much gnashing of teeth and oceans of tears ensued and usually those keening the most were exactly the type of people who bought the rags to see the exclusive pap shots, the pursuit of which ultimately killed her.

mzungu · 03-08-2016 12:17PM

tritium wrote: »

Yes there have been some nasty comments from early in this thread

It seems that this thread is viewed as being somehow misogynistic, even though the vast majority of posts have been discussing the ideologies involved. As referred to earlier in the thread, most of those complaining about it haven't actually read it. Obviously the nasty comments are out of order and completely unwelcome, but if people actually bothered to read it minus their outrage blinkers, they would find that the discussion is not a personal attack*.

In general, I think Louise O'Neill makes some valid points about women in advertising, on those fronts I would agree with her. However, by engaging in shaming her ex-boyfriend, it leaves me confused as to her true thoughts on the matter. Needless to say, I would not be on board with both her depiction of women and how she believes women should behave. Telling impressionable youngsters to view men as rapists is a deeply flawed and dangerous message to be sending out.

Oh, to to weigh in on the therapist part, I think fair play to her for not having any qualms about going to therapy or mentioning it in her articles. I think that is a good message to send out to youngsters, that there is nothing wrong with having somebody to talk things through with.

* I realise these days that opposing the way some view the world is seen as a hostile act.

pumpkin4life · 03-08-2016 12:29PM

Wibbs wrote: »

And American middle class Woody Allen with it. There's lots of cool stuff to culturally import from America, their national sport of neurosis is hardly one of them, nor is their daft gender war with its pantheon of saddos and harpies and hysterics on both sides.

TBH I'm not so sure therapy is of value for some. IMH and IME it increases the self involvement, which the fecking problem in the first place. Then again I consider too much of current psychology to be at best very lax with actual science, fashionable therapies that are "in" now that'll be out next year(mindfulness the mode de jour, CBT was the new black before it) and even strays into downright quackery.

Yep. If the clicking reading public didn't want to agree or be wound up by it editors wouldn't push it. We are responsible for it. This sorta thing often reminds me of when princess Diana was killed in Paris. Much gnashing of teeth and oceans of tears ensued and usually those keening the most were exactly the type of people who bought the rags to see the exclusive pap shots, the pursuit of which ultimately killed her.

I think the increase in demand for therapy/mental health/Bressie and Jeffrey partly comes from the coddling/spoiling/childification of Generation Snowflake; broken down by the inevitable crap that hits you as one gets older. Simply put, a lack of coping skills/humility that people over the age of 30 would have built up normally built up as life went on. And I say this as someone as someone well under 30.

Expect a massive rise in mental health issues, both big and small in the coming years.

Lux23 · 03-08-2016 12:33PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I honestly can't imagine living with worldview that skewed. I really can't.

So, you don't think women should take any particular care when coming home from the pub at night? Should we just get into a car with a stranger?

I think you're missing my point. Some men rape women, a small percentage certainly, but because they don't go around with a sign saying "I rape women", by default a woman has to be wary about all men. It always has to be in the back of your head. That is sad, maybe even warped but you can't expect women to trust you automatically?

Louise O Neill

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