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The Guardian is in trouble

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Comments

  • #32
    JJ59
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34 ✭JJ59


    The Guardian was once a great newspaper and is still needed as a progressive voice. However it devoted to much resources to the online edition and badly neglected its core product Also the move to the Berliner format was in my view a mistake Just does not work.

    A paywall for the online edition is its only hope of surviving. You can't keep giving your product away for free


  • #33
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    jimmynokia wrote: »
    Why spend money when there is a free app or alternative source?? Personally I have not bought a newspaper in 5 years

    Many reasons - maybe because one paper can be read by the whole family , maybe everything is not available in the online edition , maybe to some newspapers are like certain books ,they are better read in a hard copy format .

    And I haven't bought a paper in years either but I would still hate to see them go .

    I am surprised that app works on your nokia:)


  • #34
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 78,458 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    AdamD wrote: »
    They'll still pay VAT etc. the only tax it'll effect is corporation tax, which they wouldn't be paying anyway as they're loss making.

    The owners escape CGT if they sell. That may be a moot point if they don't make a profit...

    However their stance on tax avoidance by multinationals is very much at odds with their own structure.


  • #35
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,574 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Beasty wrote: »
    The owners escape CGT if they sell. That may be a moot point if they don't make a profit...

    However their stance on tax avoidance by multinationals is very much at odds with their own structure.

    Nobody will call them out on it though as everyone's playing that game. I doubt it even affects sales as people seem content to support Apple, Starbucks et al.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #36
    fits
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,038 ✭✭✭✭fits


    jimmynokia wrote: »
    Why spend money when there is a free app or alternative source?? Personally I have not bought a newspaper in 5 years

    And people wonder why journalistic standards are falling. I recently read Conor O'Clery's memoir and wonder if that type of journalist is an endangered species.


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  • #37
    jimmynokia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,467 ✭✭✭jimmynokia


    marienbad wrote: »
    Many reasons - maybe because one paper can be read by the whole family , maybe everything is not available in the online edition , maybe to some newspapers are like certain books ,they are better read in a hard copy format .

    And I haven't bought a paper in years either but I would still hate to see them go .

    I am surprised that app works on your nokia:)
    Since more people have mobiles now this is the best route to monitize themeselves.Paper format a wast,dirty and image quality is crap. Apps for the win..Even here in Ireland the same thing is happening,they have to digest all this info and re-format their business models.

    Since I have around 200 Nokia devices and around 100 modern devices I have a fine choice to pick from... :pac:


  • #38
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    jimmynokia wrote: »
    Since more people have mobiles now this is the best route to monitize themeselves.Paper format a wast,dirty and image quality is crap. Apps for the win..Even here in Ireland the same thing is happening,they have to digest all this info and re-format their business models.

    Since I have around 200 Nokia devices and around 100 modern devices I have a fine choice to pick from... :pac:

    No Jimmy I think the problem is much much bigger than any of that . People will just not pay for news anymore .

    For a guy giving advice on the future you sure backed a winner in Nokia :pac:


  • #39
    ebbsy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,186 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    nc6000 wrote: »
    It's a better newspaper than anything we have in Ireland.

    Yes it is and the sports writing is very good.


  • #40
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,574 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    marienbad wrote: »
    No Jimmy I think the problem is much much bigger than any of that . People will just not pay for news anymore .

    For a guy giving advice on the future you sure backed a winner in Nokia :pac:

    Free news isn't free. It's designed to sell advertising and is compiled with this in mind. The reader is not the consumer, they are the product. The consumers are the advertisers so there is no accountability on the part of the content provider to the reader.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #41
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Free news isn't free. It's designed to sell advertising and is compiled with this in mind. The reader is not the consumer, they are the product. The consumers are the advertisers so there is no accountability on the part of the content provider to the reader.

    Yeah we all understand that , but that just drives clickbait news rather than real news .


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  • #42
    fits
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,038 ✭✭✭✭fits


    I subscribe to the Irish times. Would consider guardian also if I had to.


  • #43
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 78,458 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Nobody will call them out on it though as everyone's playing that game. I doubt it even affects sales as people seem content to support Apple, Starbucks et al.
    Not (quite) everyone!! Starbucks did suffer a bit due to demonstrations at a lot of UK stores. Starbucks then "agreed" to pay some more UK tax - that was actually not possible as they could only pay what was due under UK tax rules, as they had been doing all along. They have changed their commercial arrangements since and are now paying more UK tax though.

    The Guardian actually doorstopped a number of Irish resident FTSE companies a few years ago and ran a negative article about companies basing themselves in Ireland for tax purposes.


  • #44
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,831 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Ancapaill, that is simply a Chompsky marxist analysis.


  • #45
    Letree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Letree


    Men read newspapers too they seem to have forgotten, they have been banging out the anti men articles daily for a few years now. They shouldn't be surprised if men get a little pissed off and stop reading their paper.

    Its a lesson for a lot of other papers that think the click bait feminist articles are a boon.


  • #46
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,831 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    That point I will agree with Letree.


  • #47
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Letree wrote: »
    Men read newspapers too they seem to have forgotten, they have been banging out the anti men articles daily for a few years now. They shouldn't be surprised if men get a little pissed off and stop reading their paper.

    Its a lesson for a lot of other papers that think the click bait feminist articles are a boon.

    I'm guessing you're describing the online version as opposed to the hard copy newspaper itself? I'd draw a clear distinction between the two anyway. Plus I find a lot of people - men included - are drawn to those feminist articles so they can get all outraged in the BTL section. That's my observation anyway.

    I think the paper version is still pretty great, but the online section is a bit overwhelming and lowest common denominator orientated. But still seems to be a fairly successful model if traffic is the guiding principle. Though I'm not an expert on it by any means.


  • #48
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Easily the best publication for UK news, World news and Football news. I read their site every day and if you don't read the opinion pieces like I don't then you won't get the supposed man hating vibe from it.


  • #49
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Jayop wrote: »
    Easily the best publication for UK news, World news and Football news. I read their site every day and if you don't read the opinion pieces like I don't then you won't get the supposed man hating vibe from it.

    So the man hating articles do exist, you just don't read them. No supposed about it.


  • #50
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Saipanne wrote: »
    So the man hating articles do exist, you just don't read them. No supposed about it.

    I don't know because I don't read the section they are supposed to be in.


  • #51
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    fits wrote: »
    Who owns it? And who owns what's left? Murdoch and some Russian media moguls. Say what you will about the guardian but diversity of ownership is important. It would be a big loss in the UK.

    The OP says: The Scott Trust, GMG’s sole shareholder, is tasked with protecting the newspaper in perpetuity


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  • #52
    jimmynokia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,467 ✭✭✭jimmynokia


    marienbad wrote:
    For a guy giving advice on the future you sure backed a winner in Nokia

    marienbad wrote:
    No Jimmy I think the problem is much much bigger than any of that . People will just not pay for news anymore .


    Your argument regarding backing Nokia is pointless, same thing happened to them remaining on a dying operating system and staying ignorant to the outside world. Nokia have since been a successful company providing network solutions and will be back this year with new devices.

    As for paywal news it's a non runner either in 2016.


  • #53
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,544 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Jayop wrote: »
    I don't know because I don't read the section they are supposed to be in.

    You do realise that being willfully ignorant undermines your opinion?


  • #54
    anothernight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    Jayop wrote: »
    I don't know because I don't read the section they are supposed to be in.

    I think you're forgetting which forum you're posting in. ;)


  • #55
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,574 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Beasty wrote: »
    Not (quite) everyone!! Starbucks did suffer a bit due to demonstrations at a lot of UK stores. Starbucks then "agreed" to pay some more UK tax - that was actually not possible as they could only pay what was due under UK tax rules, as they had been doing all along. They have changed their commercial arrangements since and are now paying more UK tax though.

    The Guardian actually doorstopped a number of Irish resident FTSE companies a few years ago and ran a negative article about companies basing themselves in Ireland for tax purposes.

    I didn't know that. Nice to see some consequences even if they are very minor.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #56
    Pepe LeFrits
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Frankly, I am not surprised. The paper seems happy to push ahead with various forms of angry leftists which often villainise men while pushing ahead with the obligatory victimhood narratives for everyone else. I do read it as it is better than a lot of the alternatives but I won't be shedding any tears at its demise.
    That seems like kind of a narrow lense to view it through to be honest. I’d say the Guardian opinion’s section is a relatively broad church that gives a platform to all sorts of pieces, and that’s only the opinion section. To me, The Guardian is an independently owned, left-of-centre source of news that invests in proper investigative journalism and does a lot for public civic discourse as a result. It happens to have a strain of bollocks running through part of one section of the online site (I don’t know about the actual paper) but that’s a minor enough wrinkle IMO.

    I’ve started supporting the paper financially. Proper journalism costs money and needs to be supported, and there’s too much splinternetting going on these days.


  • #57
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,574 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Pepe LeFrits wrote: »
    That seems like kind of a narrow lense to view it through to be honest. I’d say the Guardian opinion’s section is a relatively broad church that gives a platform to all sorts of pieces, and that’s only the opinion section. To me, The Guardian is an independently owned, left-of-centre source of news that invests in proper investigative journalism and does a lot for public civic discourse as a result. It happens to have a strain of bollocks running through part of one section of the online site (I don’t know about the actual paper) but that’s a minor enough wrinkle IMO.

    I’ve started supporting the paper financially. Proper journalism costs money and needs to be supported, and there’s too much splinternetting going on these days.

    There's nothing diverse in their form of "feminism". If they think that it is acceptable to print some of the things I've read there over the years then I want nothing to do with it. I use an adblocker when I visit their website as well.

    You're right though. Proper journalism does need to be supported which is why I've subscribed to The Economist which I think is a far superior publication.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #58
    fits
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,038 ✭✭✭✭fits


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You're right though. Proper journalism does need to be supported which is why I've subscribed to The Economist which I think is a far superior publication.

    Goodness, I really don't. :(

    Didn't the Guardian lead the charge with respect to the Panama papers recently? That was important work.


  • #59
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,203 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    I agree with the previous poster that it is a super paper for "news", particularly breaking news and live stories. Its sport coverage is also brilliant.

    The editorial line is a disgrace (in my opinion) much of the time. They need to decide if they are interested in reporting news, or sounding like a bunch of student radicals and fighting the (white) man.

    I pay for the Economist, and I'd pay more for the Guardian sub - but not if it meant subsidising bogus "opinion pieces" about how terrible Western civilisation is.


  • #60
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,574 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    fits wrote: »
    Didn't the Guardian lead the charge with respect to the Panama papers recently? That was important work.

    Not particularly. The documents were leaked. An international consortium of journalists hired journalists from various organisations including the Guardian to sift through them.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #61
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    I started reading it on and off about two years ago as an antidote to the dull conservatism of the Telegraph and the Murdoch propaganda outlook of his stable of papers. It's also nice not to have to flick past women's fashion, cooking tips and celebrity news in a daily newspaper. Irish papers seem so parochial in comparison.

    When I started reading it the cost was €1.80, some time last year it went up to €2.00 and just recently has rocketed up to €2.50. So it's an expensive read and I have to say the quality has declined over that time. I really enjoy the international news section as well as the British politics pages where scandals and dramas are played out in newsprint rather than avoided in fear of upsetting any egos.

    I can't understand why any right thinking person wades through the mire of drivel most of the opinion writers submit, it's about as relevant and though provoking as the rubbish printed in the Sindo. There is one rather curious execption and that is Simon Jenkins (https://www.theguardian.com/profile/simonjenkins). A white, middle aged, male with no disabilities or societal grudges. Well worth a read for a refreshing viewpoint.

    I hope it survives as an independent news outlet and looses the left wing whining bias it has become a byword for. But I can't help but feel it's days as a print newspaper are numbered.


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