Up to 85 civilians killed by mistake

Phoebas · 20-07-2016 04:18PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

And with your extensive military experience, how would you go about doing that?

That's a job for the commanders, but if they can't do it, then they shouldn't be sanctioning air strikes, especially where there is no immediate threat.

Timberrrrrrrr · 20-07-2016 04:19PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

And with your extensive military experience, how would you go about doing that?

Do you think that they just seen a few cars and ordered a strike? They have drones on station, they have spy satellites on station they can see very clearly who is there.

The Backwards Man · 20-07-2016 04:20PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

How do you propose isis are defeated?

What part of neutralising them instead of civilians do you not understand?

Maximus Alexander · 20-07-2016 04:21PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

How do you propose isis are defeated?

I'm not going to get drawn into this ridiculous line of questioning. If the line you're going to take is that anything is acceptable in the pursuit of defeating ISIS, then sure wouldn't it be quicker to just nuke the whole of Syria? The cure, quite clearly, is worse than the disease. You're defending the indefensible.

Timberrrrrrrr · 20-07-2016 04:21PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

How do you propose isis are defeated?

Do you not think that "mistakes" like this avmctually help isis recruit?

You want to stop isis? Stop giving them dead children to show in videos to help recruit!

Phoebas · 20-07-2016 04:21PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

How do you propose isis are defeated?

You'd have to ask yourself - does this incident hurt ISIS or help them?

suicide_circus · 20-07-2016 04:21PM

Phoebas wrote: »

That's a job for the commanders, but if they can't do it, then they shouldn't be sanctioning air strikes, especially where there is no immediate threat.

and it's a horrible tragedy that they got this call so awfully wrong. The commander's make thousands of impossibly difficult calls day in day out. The kind of calls most of us would literally crap our pants over if we had to make them.

Skylinehead · 20-07-2016 04:21PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

How do you propose isis are defeated?

Not handing them potential recruits on a plate would be a decent start.

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 04:22PM

Also interesting to note that these are multiple attacks of different neighborhoods.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/led-air-strikes-kill-21-civilians-syria-160719045329897.html

Irish Praetorian · 20-07-2016 04:24PM

testaccount123 wrote: »

Some might say the leaders of our western liberal democracies ought to be held to a slightly higher moral standard than some brainwashed Islamist or Vladimir Putin...

Surely that standard might be when it happens it is a mistake and we admit to it, we acknowledge it, we apologize for it and we are ashamed of it, as appears to be the case here.

suicide_circus · 20-07-2016 04:24PM

Phoebas wrote: »

You'd have to ask yourself - does this incident hurt ISIS or help them?

Absolutely, great recruiting tool. It's a tragedy on two fronts: dead civilians and a boost for isis. But that dosnt absolve us of the task of beating isis militarily.

suicide_circus · 20-07-2016 04:25PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I'm not going to get drawn into this ridiculous line of questioning. If the line you're going to take is that anything is acceptable in the pursuit of defeating ISIS, then sure wouldn't it be quicker to just nuke the whole of Syria? The cure, quite clearly, is worse than the disease. You're defending the indefensible.

Don't be silly.

Skylinehead · 20-07-2016 04:25PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Surely that standard might be when it happens it is a mistake and we admit to it, we acknowledge it, we apologize for it and we are ashamed of it, as appears to be the case here.

None of those things have happened.

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 04:26PM

Phoebas wrote: »

You'd have to ask yourself - does this incident hurt ISIS or help them?

This is a huge propaganda victory for ISIS and even for the Syrian government who have "condemned these massacres."
Even the pro US rebels who are ISIS enemies have joined in the chorus of condemnations.

Gatling · 20-07-2016 04:26PM

Phoebas wrote: »

By verifying 100% that these are not civilians.
This was not some heat of the moment thing. This was an air strike, with the aircraft coming in from the safety of an airbase in Turkey.

And how do you verify a several vehicle convoy which happens to be the favoured way of Isis getting around in Syria ,
You cant for all we know there was Isis fighters been targeted the problem with case like this is nothing has actually been verified about this story ,
56 dead ( unverified ) 85 dead (unverified) the latest figures are saying 200 dead again all unverified ,
Some other are claiming it was a single house others saying multiple houses other now saying a larger school was targeted

Phoebas · 20-07-2016 04:26PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Surely that standard might be when it happens it is a mistake and we admit to it, we acknowledge it, we apologize for it and we are ashamed of it, as appears to be the case here.

When your mistake causes the deaths of 85 innocent people, I think the standard should be a bit higher than a mea culpa.

20-07-2016 04:27PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

The fact that there are people here trying to defend this, or at the very least paint some veneer of acceptability onto it, is legitimately stomach turning. Shame on you.

Personally, I'm reserving my cynicism for people who spend 5 minutes getting hysterical about this on the internet, and then return to their normal lives which may include collecting cat memes and playing Pokemon Go.

Some posters tried to compare this airstrike to Nice. I and others are pointing out the obvious differences between a deliberate and an inadvertent attack on human life.

Barring any serious cognitive impairment, I can't understand how anybody can conflate that very simple distinction with an attempt to make the catastrophe 'acceptable'. It isn't acceptable on any level. But greater moral culpability attaches to deliberate acts, just like how greater moral blame attached to the deaths of innocent people in the Omagh Bombing than to the deaths of innocents following the Chernobyl disaster.

And no I am not comparing Chernobyl to an act of war before anyone loses their shit and becomes incandescent with rage. It's an illustration of inadvertence vs deliberate wrongdoing.

suicide_circus · 20-07-2016 04:27PM

Phoebas wrote: »

When your mistake causes the deaths of 85 innocent people, I think the standard should be a bit higher than a mea culpa.

What do you suggest?

FalconGirl · 20-07-2016 04:27PM

No excuse for it. Someone needs to do time for this.

BrokenArrows · 20-07-2016 04:27PM

85 is barely even scratching the surface of the amount of civillians that have been killed in Syria, Afganstan and Iraq by the US drone strikes.

The US will happily drone strike a house with a whole family if one of the family is a target but the whole family is reported as militants.

All the US is succeeding in doing is creating more terrorists.
For every dead civilian you have countless relatives who are pissed off at the "west". Even the most peaceful of people will be likely to retaliate if their child just got blown up by a drone.

20-07-2016 04:28PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It will just peter out in all probability, it doesn't suit the narrative of the resident hate merchants so that will be that.

Nor does it suit the narrative of the "thoughts and prayers are with" and Facebook flag filter-changing brigade.

Gatling · 20-07-2016 04:28PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

Is that an inference you are drawing?

So she was asked a purely hypothetical question and her answer was yes ,
Do you think hypothetically speaking she was referring to the idea if she chose to she could launch a Nuclear weapon for no apparent reason

keeponhurling · 20-07-2016 04:29PM

Samaris wrote: »

Unfortunately, with air strikes, civilian casualties will happen. The tragedy of war is the innocent people with the misfortune of being born in the wrong place at the wrong time suffering for the ideals of the leaders (or factions). Hell, Ireland was struck a few times by German planes aiming for Britain and missing.

Doesn't make it okay, 85 innocent people are dead, entire families wiped out. Just..sadly inevitable.

Of course the nice thing is that the lads who did this probably stopped off in Shannon airport, maybe had a pint of guinness and got fed and watered before heading off to drop bombs on Syria.
A great bunch of lads.

Phoebas · 20-07-2016 04:30PM

Gatling wrote: »

And how do you verify a several vehicle convoy which happens to be the favoured way of Isis getting around in Syria ,
You cant for all we know there was Isis fighters been targeted the problem with case like this is nothing has actually been verified about this story ,
56 dead ( unverified ) 85 dead (unverified) the latest figures are saying 200 dead again all unverified ,
Some other are claiming it was a single house others saying multiple houses other now saying a larger school was targeted

I think you'd need more evidence than a 'several vehicle convoy' to justify an airstrike.

If that's all they had to go on (which I doubt) then the airstrike would be totally unjustified.

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 04:30PM

Gatling wrote: »

And how do you verify a several vehicle convoy which happens to be the favoured way of Isis getting around in Syria ,
You cant for all we know there was Isis fighters been targeted the problem with case like this is nothing has actually been verified about this story ,
56 dead ( unverified ) 85 dead (unverified) the latest figures are saying 200 dead again all unverified ,
Some other are claiming it was a single house others saying multiple houses other now saying a larger school was targeted

Unverified by the Americans does not mean that it is unverified. It just means that America is playing for time and dragging the issue out to lessen the impact. They do this all the time. Even when they bombed the Medisan Frontier hospital in Afghanistan.

There are reports from multiple parties in Syria that support the accounts that more than 200 people have been killed.

Your Face · 20-07-2016 04:31PM

Its probably not fashionable to say so but I don't care.
I can't pretend to be outraged by this or project a facade of empathy and compassion.
These types of posts and news stories like them try to force people to react in way that's in accordance to whatever ideological notions are de rigueur this particular month.

Gatling · 20-07-2016 04:31PM

keeponhurling wrote: »

Of course the nice thing is that the lads who did this probably stopped off in Shannon airport, maybe had a pint of guinness and got fed and watered before heading off to drop bombs on Syria.
A great bunch of lads.

Unfortunately war planes don't stop off at Shannon as repeatedly varifed

Phoebas · 20-07-2016 04:31PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

What do you suggest?

I suggest due process for the commander involved.

Mint Sauce · 20-07-2016 04:32PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It will just peter out in all probability, it doesn't suit the narrative of the resident hate merchants so that will be that.

Like news reports it will only last a day or two, as those killed were not westerners, inocent or not. The same as the Airport attack in Turkey 2-3 weeks ago, and any recent event in Iraq, Iran, etc etc.

Pray for <insert middle eastern/north african country> just does not have the same effect as Pray for <insert western country> on social media.

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 04:33PM

Phoebas wrote: »

I think you'd need more evidence than a 'several vehicle convoy' to justify an airstrike.

If that's all they had to go on (which I doubt) then the airstrike would be totally unjustified.

It was dwellings in villages that were bombed.
Not convoys.

Up to 85 civilians killed by mistake

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