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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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  • #5132
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    beach_walker wrote: »
    I don't know what we are saying. You seemed to be implying that Jupiter doesn't fulfill such a role, I was correcting that.
    No I'm not. I'm asking Hinault if that is why God created Jupiter, specifically to protect the Earth.


  • #5133
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,893 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Safehands wrote: »
    No I'm not. I'm asking Hinault if that is why God created Jupiter, specifically to protect the Earth.

    Looks like he won't be able to reply for a few months going by the prison forum


  • #5134
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Looks like he won't be able to reply for a few months going by the prison forum
    What do you mean?


  • #5135
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,893 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Safehands wrote: »
    What do you mean?

    Apologies, I should have said DRP thread not prison

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057618425


  • #5136
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    MOD NOTE

    Back on topic please.

    Thanks for your attention.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #5137
    robdonn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    beach_walker wrote: »
    I don't know what we are saying. You seemed to be implying that Jupiter doesn't fulfill such a role, I was correcting that.

    Jupiter does not fill it's role very well, considering that we get hit by objects from space every day. And occasionally they are big ones. And every now and then they are REALLY big ones!

    If Jupiter was put there to protect us then it's doing a terrible job!


  • #5138
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    robdonn wrote: »
    Jupiter does not fill it's role very well, considering that we get hit by objects from space every day. And occasionally they are big ones. And every now and then they are REALLY big ones!

    If Jupiter was put there to protect us then it's doing a terrible job!

    Jupiter was not 'put' there for any reason. It happens to fulfil a role in protecting our planet from some of the debris that could potentially cause problems, but that is a consequence of it being there rather than the purpose of it.


  • #5139
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Jupiter was 'put' there for any reason. It happens to fulfil a role in protecting our planet from some of the debris that could potentially cause problems, but that is a consequence of it being there rather than the purpose of it.

    Does the bible mention jupiter specifically?


  • #5140
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    Safehands wrote: »
    Does the bible mention jupiter specifically?

    Why would it ? It's a timeless collection of books about human spirituality and the human condition, it's not a science textbook.


  • #5141
    Harika
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭Harika


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    Why would it ? It's a timeless collection of books about human spirituality and the human condition, it's not a science textbook.

    If you look some pages back, you find a discussion that the bible scientifically shows how the big bang created everything in the right order.


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  • #5142
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    Harika wrote: »
    If you look some pages back, you find a discussion that the bible scientifically shows how the big bang created everything in the right order.

    Regardless, It doesn't. It's a timeless collection of books about human spirituality and the human condition, it's not a science textbook, no more than a science textbook can teach you anything about spirtuality.


  • #5143
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    Regardless, It doesn't. It's a timeless collection of books about human spirituality and the human condition, it's not a science textbook, no more than a science textbook can teach you anything about spirtuality.
    In the creation account, it certainly does describe how the whole thing came about, much, much more than human spirituallity. The thing is, it was written by humans with very limited knowledge of anything other than their very narrow view of Earth.


  • #5144
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Safehands wrote: »
    In the creation account, it certainly does describe how the whole thing came about, much, much more than human spirituallity. The thing is, it was written by humans with very limited knowledge of anything other than their very narrow view of Earth.

    It may well have been written by humans but it was based on the direct utterings of God.


  • #5145
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    It may well have been written by humans but it was based on the direct utterings of God.

    That is what is said, but it is not true. Far too many inaccuracies.


  • #5146
    robdonn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    It may well have been written by humans but it was based on the direct utterings of God.

    And while potentially coming from a perfect source, it was written by imperfect people who make mistakes and have personal biases.

    Nothing wrong with taking the paribles and learning lessons from the Bible, but you can't say that it accurately depicts the creation of the universe without a little more than "it was based on the direct utterings of God".


  • #5147
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    robdonn wrote: »
    And while potentially coming from a perfect source, it was written by imperfect people who make mistakes and have personal biases.

    Nothing wrong with taking the paribles and learning lessons from the Bible, but you can't say that it accurately depicts the creation of the universe without a little more than "it was based on the direct utterings of God".
    We actually don't know who wrote it, just like we don't know who wrote the NT.


  • #5148
    robdonn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Safehands wrote: »
    We actually don't know who wrote it, just like we don't know who wrote the NT.

    But we do know, presumably, that it was written by humans. I've never seen a claim made that God wrote the books herself.


  • #5149
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    robdonn wrote: »
    But we do know, presumably, that it was written by humans. I've never seen a claim made that God wrote the books herself.
    Yes, all great literature was written by humans, some of them inspired by different events in their lives. Some just had wonderfully fertile imaginations. (Just look at Lord of the Rings)
    For some reason, the Old Testament was said to have been inspired by God. Maybe that was just because there was so little really classic literature written at the time. There is no evidence that it was inspired by a deity, in fact, when analysed, it could be argued there is more evidence that it was not.


  • #5150
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭indioblack


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    It may well have been written by humans but it was based on the direct utterings of God.

    If that is so, then God must have been aware that when it passed through human hands errors and misinterpretations would occur.
    This could lead to exchanges such as we are having now.


  • #5151
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    Safehands wrote: »
    In the creation account, it certainly does describe how the whole thing came about, much, much more than human spiritullity. The thing is, it was written by humans with very limited knowledge of anything other than their very narrow view of Earth.

    No, most of it is an excellent spiritual analogy and metaphor for man's relationship with God. Judaism and traditional Christianity have always seen it as such. Only in recent years do anti-theists and practically illiterate american fundamentalists read it literally as a science text book.
    "It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20 [St. Augustine A.D. 408]).


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  • #5152
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    No, most of it is an excellent spiritual analogy and metaphor for man's relationship with God. Judaism and traditional Christianity have always seen it as such. Only in recent years do anti-theists and practically illiterate american fundamentalists read it literally as a science text book.
    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    "It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and

    Are you saying that this is a quote from the 5th century?


  • #5153
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    yes, from Saint Augstine


  • #5154
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    yes, from Saint Augstine

    I had never read that piece before. Very interesting. He seems to have been a very enlightened man for his time.
    That's what I love about this forum, from time to time you encounter lovely nuggets, which require further studying. But that is how we all learn. I'll have to read more about Augustine.
    Thanks for that one.


  • #5155
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Safehands wrote: »
    I had never read that piece before. Very interesting. He seems to have been a very enlightened man for his time.
    That's what I love about this forum, from time to time you encounter lovely nuggets, which require further studying. But that is how we all learn. I'll have to read more about Augustine.
    Thanks for that one.

    Could you explain it to me then. It really is making very little sense to me.

    Does it basically mean that things can basically be explained from common experience and that since it is disgraceful for a Christians to speak without any idea of the real meanings and therefore spout nonsense he has taken the time to work out the more complicated bits for those unable to do so!


  • #5156
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Could you explain it to me then. It really is making very little sense to me.

    Does it basically mean that things can basically be explained from common experience and that since it is disgraceful for a Christians to speak without any idea of the real meanings and therefore spout nonsense he has taken the time to work out the more complicated bits for those unable to do so!

    Do you not find it interesting that a 5th century man knew about eclipses, and that the earth revolved around the sun? I need to find out more about Augustine.


  • #5157
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Safehands wrote: »
    Do you not find it interesting that a 5th century man knew about eclipses, and that the earth revolved around the sun? I need to find out more about Augustine.

    What? Eclipses were known about from at least 1500bc, there are many examples of writings on the movements of all the planets dating back even further.

    Do you think people only noticed ecplises with the advent of telescopes? And it doesn't mention the earth revolving around the sun.

    But going back to my question, what is it that the quote means. As I asked, it seems to me that Augustine is saying the stupid christians are terrible and so he has dumbed down Genesis so that they can all understand.


  • #5158
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,578 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Safehands wrote: »
    Do you not find it interesting that a 5th century man knew about eclipses, and that the earth revolved around the sun? I need to find out more about Augustine.

    5th century would be awful awful late as already pointed out, notable previous eclipses known about include....
    One of the earliest solar eclipses recorded, the Ugarit eclipse darkened the sky for two minutes and seven seconds in 1374 B.C. Mesopotamian historians in Ugarit, a port city in Northern Syrian, recount that the sun was "put to shame" during this total eclipse.
    In 1302 B.C., Chinese historians documented an epic total eclipse that blocked out the sun for six minutes and 25 seconds. Because the sun was a symbol of the emperor, an eclipse was seen as a warning to the leader. After an eclipse, an emperor would eat vegetarian meals and perform rituals to rescue the sun, according to a 2003 study in the Journal of Astronomical History and Heritage.
    In 763 B.C., the Assyrian empire, which occupied what is now Iraq, the sun was completely eclipsed for five minutes. Early records from the period mention the eclipse in the same passage as an insurrection in the city of Ashur, suggesting that the ancient people linked the two in their minds.


  • #5159
    robdonn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Safehands wrote: »
    He seems to have been a very enlightened man for his time.

    He is also the man that invented the idea of unbaptised children going to Limbo...


  • #5160
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,578 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    robdonn wrote: »
    He is also the man that invented the idea of unbaptised children going to Limbo...

    now now, told let facts get in the way of claims of him being a great man.


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  • #5161
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Cabaal wrote: »
    now now, told let facts get in the way of claims of him being a great man.
    I wouldn't say his hypothesis casts him in a particularly negative light though... it proposed that unbaptised infants might be "involved in the mildest condemnation of all". Which is a bit better than burning in the depths of hell for eternity, the fate of others who don't qualify for heaven.


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