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Cycle lanes now mandatory again, apparently

  • 14-07-2016 12:06AM
    #1
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,213 ✭✭✭


    http://irishcycle.com/2016/07/12/mandatory-cycle-track-law-not-revoked-in-2012-says-department/
    Yesterday, however, the department said that the explanatory note was “incorrect”. They did not reply to a request asking them to explain the difference between their current stance and both their 2012 statement and the ministerial and governmental intent expressed by Varadkar.

    “The explanatory note attached to the 2012 regulation is incorrect in stating that only use of contraflow cycle track and of any cycle track in pedestrianised areas is mandatory. As stated in the explanatory note, this note is not part of the instrument and does not purport to be a legal interpretation. As it is not a legal instrument, the explanatory note cannot be amended in itself,” a spokesman for the Department of Transport said yesterday.

    The relevant section of the 2012 regulations is as follows:

    (4) A pedal cycle shall be driven on a cycle track where—
    (a) a cycle track is provided on a road, a portion of a road, or an area at the entrance to which traffic sign number RUS 021 (pedestrianised street or area) is provided, or
    (b) a cycle track is a contra-flow cycle track where traffic sign number RUS 059 is provided and pedal cycles shall only be driven in a contra-flow direction on such track.”
    The spokesman then said: “To set it out as clearly as possible, paragraph 4(a) should be read as ‘A pedal cycle shall be driven on a cycle track where a cycle track is provided on a road. A pedal cycle shall be driven on a cycle track where a cycle track is provided on a portion of a road. A pedal cycle shall be driven on a cycle track where a cycle track is provided on an area at the entrance to which traffic sign number RUS 021 (pedestrianised street or area) is provided’. It is not to be read as ‘A pedal cycle shall be driven on a cycle track where traffic sign number RUS 021 (pedestrianised street or area) is provided’.”

    WHAT THE ACTUAL FK


«134567

Comments

  • #2
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,816 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    big thread on this on the cycling forum.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057621464


  • #3
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,816 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    though to repeat what i said on that thread:

    unless they actually change the wording, i cannot see any prosecution succeeding based on it. that's based on common sense, mind.
    a clear statement from the minister at the time, and a clear attempt to de-mandatorise (is that a word?) the lanes in the explanatory note; would any judge stand over a prosecution based on that?
    people are generally let off as result of ambiguities in the law, not prosecuted on them.


  • #4
    TheExile1878
    Closed Accounts Posts: 96 ✭✭TheExile1878


    Like cyclists give a stuff about the law.

    5pm last night, Quays - red light clearly on for traffic and pedestrians trying to cross towards the Italian Quarter.

    Two bikes came off the Millennium Bridge (where they are barred from anyway) and pushed through people to go right down the Quays and one went left towards Capel Street! Idiots all of them.

    Oh and while I'm at it - coming down Dame St to College Green, there is no right turn to Great George's St - so can cyclists quit running the red light, stopping in the yellow box and then playing chicken with oncoming traffic ??? You get hurt it's your own fault.


  • #5
    TheExile1878
    Closed Accounts Posts: 96 ✭✭TheExile1878


    trellheim wrote: »
    http://irishcycle.com/2016/07/12/mandatory-cycle-track-law-not-revoked-in-2012-says-department/



    WHAT THE ACTUAL FK

    Key word there "PEDESTRIANISED". The Italian Quarter is not only limited in space and so therefore not conducive to cycles, it's pedestrianised and so they shouldn't be there.

    I'm tired of the attitude that says "have wheels will go wherever we want"


  • #6
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭plodder


    As far as I remember the regs used to say something like a pedal cycle must not be used on a road where a cycle track is provided. Wording like that would be mandatory. So, I don't see how (unless wording like that exists somewhere) it can be mandatory again. The exception for contra-flow and pedestrianised streets is understandable enough.

    "An explanatory note can't be amended" ??? What's that about though? Sounds like confusion reigns at the DoT.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



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  • #7
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,816 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    TheExile1878 wrote: »
    Like cyclists give a stuff about the law.

    5pm last night, Quays - red light clearly on for traffic and pedestrians trying to cross towards the Italian Quarter.

    Two bikes came off the Millennium Bridge (where they are barred from anyway) and pushed through people to go right down the Quays and one went left towards Capel Street! Idiots all of them.

    Oh and while I'm at it - coming down Dame St to College Green, there is no right turn to Great George's St - so can cyclists quit running the red light, stopping in the yellow box and then playing chicken with oncoming traffic ??? You get hurt it's your own fault.
    what in god's name has this got to do with the topic, apart from allowing you to engage in cyclist bashing?


  • #8
    TheExile1878
    Closed Accounts Posts: 96 ✭✭TheExile1878


    Typically dense.

    The post is about what cyclists are mandated to do.

    I pointed out that as a walker/jogger of many years standing in Dublin - they rarely do so.

    Rather that simply "cycle bash" - I offered evidence.


  • #9
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,816 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    none of the examples you gave have any bearing on cycle lanes and the questions about the law on whether they're mandatory. they're all completely off topic.
    you'd be able to go into a debate about TB on the farming forum and try to make it about cyclists, and then cry foul about people avoiding the question when they refused to engage with your nonsense.


  • #10
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,120 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    This thread is about cycle tracks -- not random complaints about unrelated things cyclists do! There's other threads for that.

    -- mod
    TheExile1878 wrote: »
    Typically dense.

    Really? You post that and then report somebody else's post?!? Don't answer that. It's not a question.

    -- mod


  • #11
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,816 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    anyway, back on topic, what the hell is going on in the DoT, that they've basically admitted they are incapable of writing or changing laws.

    there's no explanation - that i am aware of - as to why they managed to mess this up in the first place (if we are to assume that they believe they are telling the truth).
    if they are mistaken - that's brand spanking new incompetence.
    if they are correct - that's incompetence, but four years old.


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  • #12
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,120 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    I'm not sure if his account was closed or if he was site banned first but TheExile1878 is gone, so please don't reply to his posts. I'm sure there'll be a new user sometime soon to rant about cyclists in the same vain -- if you see such please let me know.

    -- mod


  • #13
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    It is clearly one step in the right direction in having safer interactions between motorists and cyclists. Leo should never have have made the amendment in 2012. It would also help the general movement of traffic.


  • #14
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,816 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you mean it's safer to push cyclists onto infrastructure which is not fit for purpose. safer for whom?


  • #15
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    you mean it's safer to push cyclists onto infrastructure which is not fit for purpose. safer for whom?

    No I mean instead of cyclists moaning about lack of infrastructure perhaps they should use what they currently have and make official complaints about tracks that are unsuitable for use to the council. It was only a few years ago that every motorist gave out about the condition of Irish roads and now there is a pretty good network of routes throughout Ireland. They used what they had.


  • #16
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,213 ✭✭✭trellheim


    No I mean instead of cyclists moaning about lack of infrastructure perhaps they should use what they currently have and make official complaints about tracks that are unsuitable for use to the council. It was only a few years ago that every motorist gave out about the condition of Irish roads and now there is a pretty good network of routes throughout Ireland. They used what they had.

    With the best will in the world I doubt this view will be taken seriously. Driving through a pothole is not comparable to breaking your neck on shtty bikelanes.


  • #17
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,816 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    No I mean instead of cyclists moaning about lack of infrastructure perhaps they should use ... tracks that are unsuitable for use to the council.
    there ya go.


  • #18
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,519 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    there ya go.

    Don't edit the post. That's not what the poster said they said make a complaint to the council for unsuitable lanes.


  • #19
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    you mean it's safer to push cyclists onto infrastructure which is not fit for purpose. safer for whom?

    Safer like the spawell roundabout on the M50 where a seperate cycle lane is provided to stop cyclists going around the roundabout with traffic or the red cow which has the same but I regularly see cyclists within inches of cars on roads that are not designed to have them there? Same happens on the N4 junction over the M50

    God forbid it takes an extra couple of minutes to go the safe route :rolleyes:


  • #20
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,816 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Don't edit the post. That's not what the poster said they said make a complaint to the council for unsuitable lanes.
    it was meant to be partly humorous, partly to make a point. he said to use what's there and complain about the ones unsuitable, and it far from clear if the implication was to not use the unsuitable ones.

    i regularly use cycle lanes, and most cyclists do. i avoid the unsuitable ones, e.g. the offroad lanes on the R108 between ballymun and the M50 junction, because they're usually full of crap.

    re complaining about unsuitable cycle lanes - unless it's a simple case of sweeping detritus out of them, there's not much the council can do about remedying a bad design in the short term.


  • #21
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,519 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    it was meant to be partly humorous, partly to make a point. he said to use what's there and complain about the ones unsuitable, and it far from clear if the implication was to not use the unsuitable ones.

    i regularly use cycle lanes, and most cyclists do. i avoid the unsuitable ones, e.g. the offroad lanes on the R108 between ballymun and the M50 junction, because they're usually full of crap.

    re complaining about unsuitable cycle lanes - unless it's a simple case of sweeping detritus out of them, there's not much the council can do about remedying a bad design in the short term.


    I fully understand what you say but leaving out part of the post is a bit unfair on other poster.

    Clearly if they are not safe but people should report the defects as the council have a duty and will fix if enough pressure is put on them.


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  • #22
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    there ya go.

    You seem to have a habit of picking and choosing particular phrases within a post to suit your own views. In doing this you simply dilute the context and perception of other users. If your view is different just say so, you dont have to try tear apart my views in my post.


  • #23
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,519 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    I have no problem whatsoever with cyclists sharing the roads but if it's done safely.

    I drive large vehicles and can't believe what risks are taken multiple times a day by cyclists where they are weaving all over the road and don't seam to care that when large vehicles are turning or following a bend that the rear of the vehicle will get closer to the kerb and they will still try to pass.

    If you can't see the mirrors then the driver can't see you.

    If there are cycle lanes provided and are safe people really should use them for their own safety and just really makes good sense.


  • #24
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    it was meant to be partly humorous, partly to make a point. he said to use what's there and complain about the ones unsuitable, and it far from clear if the implication was to not use the unsuitable ones.

    i regularly use cycle lanes, and most cyclists do. i avoid the unsuitable ones, e.g. the offroad lanes on the R108 between ballymun and the M50 junction, because they're usually full of crap.

    re complaining about unsuitable cycle lanes - unless it's a simple case of sweeping detritus out of them, there's not much the council can do about remedying a bad design in the short term.

    In my own opinion, i would disagree that most cyclists use cycle lanes but having said that i dont think there is ant definitive evidence to prove otherwise.

    Regarding reporting issues with cycle lanes...If cyclists go through the correct channels in reporting issues with the lanes the council will have to react. If the tracks are in such a state that there is risk of causing damage to a bicycle then the council will have to maintain or face claims for damage. If its a case that the lane is just inconvenient in comparison to cycling on the main road then tough. Perhaps that is one for city planners?


  • #25
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,816 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    You seem to have a habit of picking and choosing particular phrases within a post to suit your own views. In doing this you simply dilute the context and perception of other users. If your view is different just say so, you dont have to try tear apart my views in my post.
    genuinely - please clarify your views so. as mentioned, my response was intended to be partly humorous, but you did say (taking at face value) to use what's there while in the same sentence suggesting some of them are unsuitable.


  • #26
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    genuinely - please clarify your views so. as mentioned, my response was intended to be partly humorous, but you did say (taking at face value) to use what's there while in the same sentence suggesting some of them are unsuitable.

    What i was trying to say was that out of the current 500km(approx) of existing cycle track network in Dublin the best approach would be to use the existing infrastructure and where the track becomes unusable then report it to the council for maintenance.


  • #27
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,816 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i don't think i'd be very atypical of a fairly confident cyclist in that i use on-road cycle lanes 99% of the time where provided, but off-road cycle lanes maybe only 20% of the time, where provided. the head scratching design flaws and detritus seem to be generally reserved for these off-road lanes; and many implementations of them make life more dangerous for cyclists, rather than less dangerous (i'm in a rush now, but i'll try to source the report i once read that they make junctions more dangerous, and junctions are the main issue regarding safety).

    one reason they often have these flaws is that they're frequently retrofitted to a footpath, with the knock on effect that footpaths are not designed for bicycles.

    obviously, for a nervous cyclist, there's probably a sense of safety to using an off-road lane; whether that's borne out in their actual experience may be another matter.


  • #28
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 34,182 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    I have no problem whatsoever with cyclists sharing the roads but if it's done safely.

    I drive large vehicles and can't believe what risks are taken multiple times a day by cyclists where they are weaving all over the road and don't seam to care that when large vehicles are turning or following a bend that the rear of the vehicle will get closer to the kerb and they will still try to pass.

    If you can't see the mirrors then the driver can't see you.

    If there are cycle lanes provided and are safe people really should use them for their own safety and just really makes good sense.

    I don't have a problem with other road users but owning a car motorcycle and push bike allows me to see that all road users are morons and they come from all manners of vehicles. The constant need to demonise a road user based on method of transport is utterly stupid rather than demonising the individual doing the action whatever that maybe.


    Im sure as a professional driver you have been overtaken badly by all manners of transport. No?




    ......


  • #29
    radia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭radia


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Regarding reporting issues with cycle lanes...If cyclists go through the correct channels in reporting issues with the lanes the council will have to react. If the tracks are in such a state that there is risk of causing damage to a bicycle then the council will have to maintain or face claims for damage. If its a case that the lane is just inconvenient in comparison to cycling on the main road then tough. Perhaps that is one for city planners?
    Roadhawk wrote: »
    What i was trying to say was that out of the current 500km(approx) of existing cycle track network in Dublin the best approach would be to use the existing infrastructure and where the track becomes unusable then report it to the council for maintenance.

    In some cases it's poor maintenance that makes cycle tracks unsuitable/unsafe for use. However, in others they're intrinsically unsafe because of their design - frequently because they place cyclists going straight ahead to the left of left-turning cars, and in a position that makes them less noticeable to the car drivers who consequently are more likely just to cut across them.

    An extreme example in Galway is here, where the cyclist would need to give way at every junction. Utterly impractical to have such a stop/start journey, looking over your shoulder all the while.

    doughiska_galway.jpg

    A more subtle - but possibly more dangerous for that reason - example is here (Leopardstown Road in Dublin).

    EYwHGtC.jpg

    The cyclist on this cycle track going straight ahead has no road marking to yield, and should not have to; he is going straight along the main road. However the left turn into the side road has a nice wide curve allowing a motorist to take it at speed. Since the cycle track is up on the path rather than on the road the motorist is less likely to notice a cyclist in the lane to the left of him, and the chance of an accident where he cuts across the cyclist is consequently greatly increased. it's a really dangerous design, and any regular cyclist could point out dozens of instances where this happens, but it's subtle enough that the problem probably wouldn't even occur to a non-cyclist until they're involved in an accident or near miss of this kind. (That's leaving aside the lack of a ramp from pavement to road level, and the lamppost in the way.)

    (Photos taken from thread on the same topic in the cycling forum.)


  • #30
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Theres nothing telling pedestrians to yield either, should they just wander straight in to traffic?


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  • #31
    radia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭radia


    Pedestrians are not traffic; that's why they don't belong on the road and need to yield if stepping into it. Cyclists are traffic and motorists in a lane to the right of them should not cut them up when moving across their lane.
    Completely different.
    But that's the mindset that those rubbishy cycle tracks encourage.

    Which is why sensible cyclists will stay on the road where they can be properly recognised as traffic and are less likely to have motorists driving across them at speed.


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