Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

jenny smith · 13-07-2016 10:14PM

Going Forward wrote: »

I'm just bewildered as to how he seems to be unable to express himself in a coherent sentence.

He's saying today that a call was received but it had absolutely nothing to do with the investigation that was going on at the time.

That sounds like he IS disputing that the call ever happened, to me at least.

Particularly when he also uses the word "hearsay" about what I assume is the provenance of it

Why couldn't he have said today that, yes, a politician tried to interfere with the case but as far as he was concerned it had no effect on the investigation??

Speaking in riddles.

which is a direct contradiction of what the other garda said in the doc "I know that as a result of that phone call that certain people weren't allowed to be interviewed" https://sendvid.com/fg8c71z4 copyright gemma o doherty acknowledged

Going Forward · 13-07-2016 11:06PM

jenny smith wrote: »

which is a direct contradiction of what the other garda said in the doc "I know that as a result of that phone call that certain people weren't allowed to be interviewed" https://sendvid.com/fg8c71z4 copyright gemma o doherty acknowledged

You mentioned it possibly being edited.

OK, is there ANY possibility that something said by Collins (to the effect that it was rumoured that there was a phone call which skewed the investigation) was cut just BEFORE he begins talking about the phone call on that clip?

Or that the still shot of the garda station in the clip as he's talking disguises an edit of some sort because he comes back in having said "a phone call was made to Ballyshannon station/ WITH a politician..."

"BY" a politician surely?

He's hardly been edited to suit has he??

Onthebus · 13-07-2016 11:49PM

If I want to watch the documentary where can I stream or download it?

Are we seeing yet another example of garda corruption and the lack of the rule of law???

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 12:07AM

Onthebus wrote: »

If I want to watch the documentary where can I stream or download it?

Are we seeing yet another example of garda corruption and the lack of the rule of law???

stuar · 14-07-2016 12:17AM

I don't know what is going on, but I suspect that the gardai that gave evidence have been threatened, not them, but their kids or grand-kids, it's the one and only way to stop them.

Going Forward · 14-07-2016 12:32AM

mikeymouse wrote: »

Their complaint is not about the investigation ,it's about the guards giving the story to the press without informing them.
i think they have grounds for complaining.
They have been making a "nuisance" for 40 years without success

edit; I didn't realize the mother was the main contact.

If the mother is the Garda point then a complaint to GSOC about Ann not being contacted is pointless.

A complaint about her not being made a joint point of contact in this case might be worthwhile if she has it on paper that she's been refused.

And that'll require another complaint to GSOC.

Going Forward · 14-07-2016 12:40AM

https://mobile.twitter.com/mickthehack/status/753371487478964224?p=v

Mick O Toole has another big story about the original investigation tomorrow.

Fair dues to him for keeping the heat on.

mikeymouse · 14-07-2016 01:08AM

" I saw Mary being driven away" this after 40 years???
https://mobile.twitter.com/buzzdotie/status/753349186129625088/photo/1

Michael O Toole · 14-07-2016 01:22AM

mikeymouse wrote: »

" I saw Mary being driven away" this after 40 years???
https://mobile.twitter.com/buzzdotie/status/753349186129625088/photo/1

Give him a chance. Read the story. He reported it the next day. Says cops ignored him. Made a fresh statement 15 years ago. Never wavered when I spoke to him. May not be right, I have no clue. But his story deserves to be told - and not dismissed. Thanks.

evancostello · 14-07-2016 02:22AM

I have looked at this documentary twice now and its well maybe obvious why mainstream have iced it or detoured substantially . I kinda see why. All of what she is saying isnt supported anywhere except by Seanchais like Margo. I dont mean this in a derogatory sense but is Margo for real. If she can unlock the case, please do so ,like now.

ArnoldJRimmer · 14-07-2016 04:25AM

aphex™ wrote: »

Shocked family complaining to GSOC about a journalist for getting a story that the case might be reviewed by the Garda cold case unit :eek:

Just let the cops get on with it and let the journalists do what they're supposed to.
Talk about throwing a spanner in the works.
I thought they wanted the media to get involved? The mind, it boggles.

First, fair play to Stuar for opening this thread and keeping it going with great passion and insight, oranbhoy for professional and informative explanation of the facts in a a matter very close to his heart, and Mick O'Toole and Gemma O'Doherty for bringing it again to national attention.Being from Donegal, I've always had a huge interest in this case and the last few weeks has been an eye opener.

I'll speculate on the above post that given that the crux of the recent attempts at justice have claimed that the guards may have been part of a cover up, an announcement about an investigation into the case in national media without first consulting the people behind campaigning for it may not engender a lot of trust.

I'm not saying that this is not a step in the right direction, but i can understand why they don't have any particular faith in the authorities after 40 years of running into brick walls

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 05:40AM

evancostello wrote: »

I have looked at this documentary twice now and its well maybe obvious why mainstream have iced it or detoured substantially . I kinda see why. All of what she is saying isnt supported anywhere except by Seanchais like Margo. I dont mean this in a derogatory sense but is Margo for real. If she can unlock the case, please do so ,like now.

Believe me when i say Margo is for real , no one knows 100% what happened that day except for little Mary and whoever may have killed her, but Margo has been through a hell of a lot with this, she has been told by people very very close to Mary what happened to her, and the only story she is telling is that out of pure frustration and it is to her a factual story, she like everyone else wants to shout it from the hilltops who did it or who she was told did it and she has told the Gardai .. if she goes around publicly naming people then it could result in a mistrial if anyone was brought to trial .. if Fianna Fail didn't have someone involved in this case you have got to wonder why they haven't came forward and said so by now, instead of just one of their members saying it wasn't me and another one deleting his facebook when asked to help the investigation

The person who Margo. Anne ,Myself and others believe committed this awful crime has also remained completely silent,and anyone who can join the dots know who he is .. i was asked by a relative of his what would i do if someone in my family for example was on radio and in press and going to gards accusing me of something awful , i said i would be going to the same places to clear my name or if i was too shy to do it id be getting my lawyer to do it ,, his silence and the silence of Fianna Fail says it all imo .

I rang around every one of this mans relatives to ask their thoughts ( before the documentary came out) so i could get a balanced view as i didnt want to join in any witch hunt with facts from both sides..everyone i rang in the Republic said hello, i told them who i was and why i wanted to speak to them and they just stopped speaking , never hung up the phone just stopped speaking , in one case you could hear a child still chatting whilst i guess her mum was hushing her, the relative i rang in the North must not have got the memo as she answered by screaming down the phone at me and i mean screaming , then hanging up , i then redialled and this time an Irish man answered putting on a fake English accent and kept repeating that he was "Nigel" and there was no such person there as the woman that had been screaming at me seconds earlier , as i said it was a redial so definitely the same number , couple that with the video of the supsect blowing a whistle down the phone at my sister which i posted earlier in the thread and you hardly have a family doing their upmost to protest their innocence.

Id love to be proven wrong and for Mary to turn up somewhere alive (doubt that very much sadly) or having fell down a boghole etc with no sign of trauma i would take being wrong over her being found i couldn't care less that id look an eejit for saying something else happened to her .. but knowing what I know I am as sure as i can be that the man hinted at in the documentary is guilty. whether it was murder or an accident or whatever he is hiding something

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 05:55AM

evancostello wrote: »

I have looked at this documentary twice now and its well maybe obvious why mainstream have iced it or detoured substantially . I kinda see why. All of what she is saying isn't supported anywhere except by Seanchais like Margo. I don't mean this in a derogatory sense but is Margo for real. If she can unlock the case, please do so ,like now.

and what you said is derogatory whether you say you don't mean it or not
you must have missed the 2 remaining main gardai's information in the documentary and Marys twin herself

Margo and the two cops won't be short of a few bob, and so why would they put their reputations on the line at such an advanced age for free knowing they would be ridiculed and indeed worse receive threats as they have been, seeing as the documentary went out free to air on YouTube I'm very doubtful they would have made anything from it, whilst i personally think the Documentary could've done with a bit of tightening up her and there, there is still is an awful lot of stuff it didn't put in.. so it is actually restrained in that way
infact your right Margo is a storyteller, but in this case its a true story and one that needed to be told , and if it wasn't for her then the main players would've passed away and in a decade or so the truth would come out and we would all be asking why didn't people come forward at the time , so damned if you do damned if you dont

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 06:05AM

Michael O Toole wrote: »

Give him a chance. Read the story. He reported it the next day. Says cops ignored him. Made a fresh statement 15 years ago. Never wavered when I spoke to him. May not be right, I have no clue. But his story deserves to be told - and not dismissed. Thanks.

I don't know the full story with this guy i agree that you have to give him his chance to air his views, & applaud you for doing more digging in this story even if it doesn't fit into the narrative that i believe any publicity to keep reopen this case is good publicity.

Having said that, I find it very suspicious that he said he told the gards in the original statement he saw a red VW Beetle leave the scene but the gards didn't include it in that statement.. did he not read the statement before signing it?
someone has messed up if what he says is true, either him for signing a statement that doesn't have the full & most important info in it or the gards for not including what he says - if true

A Red VW beetle also is a very distinctive car . wonder how hard it would be to trace all who owned such a car in that time period in Ireland

crusier · 14-07-2016 06:10AM

There's a cold case review, let them get on with it and see what comes out of it.

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 06:28AM

crusier wrote: »

There's a cold case review, let them get on with it and see what comes out of it.

we have been letting them get on with it for 40 years, the cold case team is a handful of gards who take the files review them and hand them back to the original gards as far as i am led to believe

not good enough

Going Forward · 14-07-2016 08:00AM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

I don't know the full story with this guy i agree that you have to give him his chance to air his views, & applaud you for doing more digging in this story even if it doesn't fit into the narrative that i believe any publicity to keep reopen this case is good publicity.

Having said that, I find it very suspicious that he said he told the gards in the original statement he saw a red VW Beetle leave the scene but the gards didn't include it in that statement.. did he not read the statement before signing it?
someone has messed up if what he says is true, either him for signing a statement that doesn't have the full & most important info in it or the gards for not including what he says - if true

A Red VW beetle also is a very distinctive car . wonder how hard it would be to trace all who owned such a car in that time period in Ireland

It would be a distinctive car.

An unkown car was mentioned before, by Mary's mother:

"According to Mrs Boyle there was one car seen on the road near the family house and the person never came forward."

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/mary-boyle-a-stolen-child-26259379.html

Who saw the car that Mrs. Boyle spoke of?

The poachers apparently saw nothing from their vantage point according to reports IIRC.

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 08:11AM

Going Forward wrote: »

It would be a distinctive car.

An unkown car was mentioned before, by Mary's mother:

"According to Mrs Boyle there was one car seen on the road near the family house and the person never came forward."

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/mary-boyle-a-stolen-child-26259379.html

Who saw the car that Mrs. Boyle spoke of?

The poachers apparently saw nothing from their vantage point according to reports IIRC.

The guy that has came forward in today's Star is one of the poachers

Another eyewitness who was cutting a tree in the area that day reported all cars he had seen in that area that day and he didn't mention seeing a VW beetle , he has now passed away sadly

The poacher never officially came forward for 15 years to say he saw the VW beetle , he said he reported it in original report but that the gardai never put it in his statement

Going Forward · 14-07-2016 08:55AM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

The guy that has came forward in today's Star is one of the poachers

Another eyewitness who was cutting a tree in the area that day reported all cars he had seen in that area that day and he didn't mention seeing a VW beetle , he has now passed away sadly

The poacher never officially came forward for 15 years to say he saw the VW beetle , he said he reported it in original report but that the gardai never put it in his statement

So the Gaurds kept this car out his statement and never mentioned it in public appeals.

Even after he went back in 2011 to reiterate it?

evancostello · 14-07-2016 09:39AM

I have looked again at this documentary and the more you do look at the more you realise that you might be manipulated by the author. I say this from a position that when I first saw it , I was convinced that the two detectives were impeded in their duty by their superiors and that the superiors were corrupt. The first scenario now is completely untrue , one of the detectives now stress that there was NO undue influence from his superiors. The other detective ( Murray) also never states that his supereiors interfered with the investigation, never. He says the sting was taken out of it by the call.The film would have you believe that both detectives were saying the same thing. No ,that was as a result of clever editing and splicing by the author.

The impression then is that Super put his foot in front of the investigation. You need to look at this , as I can see no such (good) evidence in this film. Infact, none of the Detectives say he did anything wrong. In fact they say the opposite. Am I missing something here.

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 09:45AM

evancostello wrote: »

I have looked again at this documentary and the more you do look at the more you realise that you might be manipulated by the author. I say this from a position that when I first saw it , I was convinced that the two detectives were impeded in their duty by their superiors and that the superiors were corrupt. The first scenario now is completely untrue , one of the detectives now stress that there was NO undue influence from his superiors. The other detective ( Murray) also never states that his supereiors interfered with the investigation, never. He says the sting was taken out of it by the call.The film would have you believe that both detectives were saying the same thing. No ,that was as a result of clever editing and splicing by the author.

The impression then is that Super put his foot in front of the investigation. You need to look at this , as I can see no such (good) evidence in this film. Infact, none of the Detectives say he did anything wrong. In fact they say the opposite. Am I missing something here.

you have 10 posts and they are all against this campaign and/or the documentary.

Murray was quite clear on what he said .. it does look like what collins said was cleverly edited to make it look like it agreed with him which i disagree with

it doesn't take away from the 2 guards believing that the man they suspected was never arressted

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 09:59AM

https://www.change.org/p/frances-fitzgerald-justice-for-mary-boyle?recruiter=16058158&utm_source=petitions_share&utm_medium=copylink

petition here if anyone interested

14-07-2016 10:09AM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

you have 10 posts and they are all against this campaign and/or the documentary.

Murray was quite clear on what he said .. it does look like what collins said was cleverly edited to make it look like it agreed with him which i disagree with

it doesn't take away from the 2 guards believing that the man they suspected was never arressted

It's clear some people are best ignored in this thread. Responding only takes up space and encourages more input.

Autonomous Cowherd · 14-07-2016 10:21AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's clear some people are best ignored in this thread. Responding only takes up space and encourages more input.

To ignore opinions that do not support your own is a very narrow way of viewing the world. Everyone is entitled to their interpretation, everyone has a different angle that can contribute to a whole picture. As it stands no-one knows exactly what happened to Mary, no matter who told them a story. We are all speculating, and to speculate head on in only one direction is poor reasoning. All cards should be on the table. ALL possibilities. Allow yourself to be contradicted and not to grasp at beliefs and maybe a clearer picture will emerge.

One thing I was struck by in the video was Margo's remark about the people coming back to Kincasslagh on the bus in the early days of the searches. How they would not go back as they 'knew' what had happened there. I remember very similar remarks coming from my family members in the Cork area after Robert Holohan went missing. Local people and people close to a case often have insights and instincts that are worth respecting. Likewise local people can be gossips and liars, and this has to be kept in mind. Margo also struck me unfortunately as a bit self-regarding, as considering herself a very central figure in the case which was a bit off-putting, but this may unfortunately go with the territory of being a 'big star'.

evancostello · 14-07-2016 10:56AM

Au contraire. I was a convert when I first saw this video. When it started to come apart a bit , i then looked at it again and again. I dont like feeling manipulated and that is the way it felt. It doesnt disqualify my views , like all here I keep your mind open on all posts.

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 11:45AM

evancostello wrote: »

Au contraire. I was a convert when I first saw this video. When it started to come apart a bit , i then looked at it again and again. I dont like feeling manipulated and that is the way it felt. It doesnt disqualify my views , like all here I keep your mind open on all posts.

i have wrote about my history with the documentary maker on here previously, however you won't find many people so passionate about a case that they make a documentary about it that doesn't try & manipulate you into their way of thinking , as ive said i do think she has went overboard at times but to me the facts of the matter speak for themselves

You also have to remember that both Marys Mother and Uncle were asked to participate and both declined .

just a sidenote here but id love to see again one of the old RTE documentaries on the case ( I think it was the one produced under the "would you believe" banner but i could be mistaken) , theres a scene in it where the Marys uncle Michael is talking to the camera with Gerry by his side yet Gerry never utters a single word, Im surprised Gemma never included that footage

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 11:55AM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

To ignore opinions that do not support your own is a very narrow way of viewing the world. Everyone is entitled to their interpretation, everyone has a different angle that can contribute to a whole picture. As it stands no-one knows exactly what happened to Mary, no matter who told them a story. We are all speculating, and to speculate head on in only one direction is poor reasoning. All cards should be on the table. ALL possibilities. Allow yourself to be contradicted and not to grasp at beliefs and maybe a clearer picture will emerge.

One thing I was struck by in the video was Margo's remark about the people coming back to Kincasslagh on the bus in the early days of the searches. How they would not go back as they 'knew' what had happened there. I remember very similar remarks coming from my family members in the Cork area after Robert Holohan went missing. Local people and people close to a case often have insights and instincts that are worth respecting. Likewise local people can be gossips and liars, and this has to be kept in mind. Margo also struck me unfortunately as a bit self-regarding, as considering herself a very central figure in the case which was a bit off-putting, but this may unfortunately go with the territory of being a 'big star'.

I can see how someone could think that, maybe there's even some truth to it , but if it wasn't for Margo keeping this story alive then we wouldn't be discussing this just now, she is only one of a group of people in the Rosses area to have been told the same information as about this case by the same person who is linked to the suspect , but she has been the only one -to my knowledge (along with the twin Anne) - to come forward & try to push the case forward and into the public eye and she has used her own money and her relative "fame" to do so.

Hopefully one day the full story comes out and if it does people will see how much of a saint that margo has been through all this, I'm not religious but that isn't a term I'd use lightly .

None of us can be 100% sure on anything really especially on something like this but Margo is acting on information she has received which is a lot more than others are doing and she is the complete driving force behind this . god knows she may turn out to be wrong ( I don't believe she is) but she is doing her best to find out the truth one way or another and I believe she is doing it for Mary and our family and that is all.

Macca07 · 14-07-2016 11:56AM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

just a sidenote here but id love to see again one of the old RTE documentaries on the case ( I think it was the one produced under the "would you believe" banner but i could be mistaken) , theres a scene in it where the Marys uncle Michael is talking to the camera with Gerry by his side yet Gerry never utters a single word, Im surprised Gemma never included that footage

I believe it was called Charlie and Mary, but I could be wrong, aired in Feb 2007

oranbhoy67 · 14-07-2016 12:01PM

Macca07 wrote: »

I believe it was called Charlie and Mary, but I could be wrong

yeah i think it was that one , but there was also another documentary made around the same time of which the makers refused to let gemma use Footage of, i think it is the one that she uses screenshots of instead in her documentary.

I watched them all at the time not knowing then what I believe now and would love to see them again with a different view this time.

but that one scene I described earlier did strike me as very odd, I Thought maybe he was just too traumatised to speak about it at the time despite it being 30 years on .

Going Forward · 14-07-2016 12:03PM

Macca07 wrote: »

I believe it was called Charlie and Mary, but I could be wrong, aired in Feb 2007

Other WYB programmes are available to view on the RTE website, but this one isnt.....

http://www.rte.ie/tv/wouldyoubelieve/av_index.html

Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

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