State of the Nation

Abdiel

Figured I'd just rant about stuff for a while here...

1. Racism in Ireland - Like a lot of other issues at the moment this is a typically Irish hypocritical issue. For centuries we took pleasure in the notion that Ireland had somehow comquered the world through emmigration. It was only in the 90's that emmigration levels in Ireland really began to drop, the dark days of the 80s were, things were looking up and people started to stay instead of going abroad. We all acted with shock and horror whenever we heard stories of these people recounting the racist abuse they were subjected to just for being Irish and yet its hard to go anywhere today and not hear or see some form of racism. Like most things in Ireland though, most of us just ignore it and pretend it has nothing to do with us.
I recently saw a black bus driver being verbally abused because he told a passenger he was not paying the right fare for his given destination - his response was to hurl racial slurs at the bus driver and tell him to go back where he came from. Typical response from other passengers - ignore it !

2. Service Industries - The people working in these industries seem to be increasinly the people least suited to dealing with the public. Too many of them seem to have a major attitude problem. I assume this comes from the fact that they have crap jobs. But then given the obvious lack of education in most of these, do they really expect anything else. There seems to be an ingrained belief that somehow society owes them something - for what Im not sure - for dropping out of school, taking a crap job and then feeling a little resentful when they're still stuck in the same dead-end job 5 years later.
I recently had a 5 minute argument in a shop when I was given the wrong change. She insisted she was right, and only eventually gave in when I counted out the change and proved she had given me change of €15 instead of €20. Well Actually I had to shout at her that I would hardly give her €15 for a €6 purchase, she seemed to miss the relevance of that however and I think just conceded to get me out of the shop. And maybe thats the main problem ! Too many people in the service industry justtrying to get you out of the way so they can move on to somebody else. Of course there is the other scenario where you go into a shop and the people there simply ignore you completely preferring instead to discuss some insignificant detail of their pittiful lives.

Post Celtic Tiger - You can just feel a lot of the anger out there at the moment. Most of it is conveniently blamed on drink at the moment as that seems to be the trendy thing to do. Not sure how this came about. Unfortunately most of the people making these slurs against the drinking community should have lost all right to such criticisms years ago when they completely overlooked the chronic alcoholism of people like Alex Higgins, George Best, Brendan Beahan, etc... No instead they were just good guys having a laugh "Good old Brendan, good old Alex, etc". No it was fine for these people to think like that then. Underage drinking is not a new thing in Ireland, before I was a teenager gangs of kids gathered in fields on fridays and saturdays to go drinking, but now we got to stop it because the same people who tolerated it for so long have suddenly got a conscience and think maybe it wasnt such a good idea all along.
Of course blaming it all on drink is very easy. Increasing crime, public disorder - all down to drink or maybe a side effect of an economy where the only people who can afford to buy a house are politicians and property developers. Seems like most people missed out on the Celtic tiger. Not the politicians and the lawyers they pay to investigate their own corruption and certainly not the property developers. The increase in public disorder may be attributed to drink, but most likely is a side effect of a side which increasingly isolates the majority and looks after its rich minority.

Time for revolution is near ! Maybe not, most people in Ireland are just too apathetic to care as long as they're ok.

Trebor

I could write a long reply detailing each point you mentioned but i just don't care

delop

On point one 1) I reckon we have had plenty of practice with racism, For years we have been polarising the Itinerant ( I suppose that term is racist too) community against the settled community, but that seemed fine with both us and them.


2) I think the issue discussed in point 2 is not solely experenced in the service industry, I reckon it had to to do with the celtic tiger, where we went from being a 1st world country to becoming a real first world counrty (well in our minds). So with money in our pockets we got to be a bit big for our boots, Thought our opinions mattered and worse still we now dont have anyone to blame for our mistakes, No longer can we bitch and moan about 700 hundred years of oppression, not its 10 years of mistakes, but we have done it to ourselves, voted in our government, well some of us did anyways. Maybe next General election we might feel more like reading up about the present day Political parties and finding out if there is any difference between them

As to the public order offences, I supose there were always public order offences, look at easter 1916 (only joking). But seriously if we bring things down to their simplist, Look at animals on the farm, when do they get upset and start attacking each other or the farmer or breaking out of their fields.... Well if they are not getting their basic needs met, such as enough to eat , if they are sick, or if their conditions and not good enough (dirty, cold etc..) Well I reckon Humans create public order offences ffor similar reasons, and In our case I reckon its social insecurity. The things that made us Irish, what ever they were are gone, we have lost our connection to our Spirituality, the land and each other. The drinking problems being discussed are a symptom of the larger issue not the cause.

So if we figure out what the bigger issue is and try to resolve that, the other problems in society will fall into place...

Sparks

I still think direct democracy is the solution to much of this - after all, with our present government, it's quite hard to feel like any of the decisions taken in the running of the country were anything to do with you. Those decisions taken by referenda though, are somewhat different. But this system of representative democracy does a great deal to promote the system of thought that says "It's all their fault, we can't do anything, they run everything, it's not what you know - it's who you know, may as well not try since it's all decided higher up..." and similar things.
Hard to have any kind of responsibility to a society where an arrogant elite make all the decisions.

Abdiel

This direct democracy you speak of woud have to be implemented by free thinking individuals. Not the kind of govt. that sits on the fence to see what everybody else is doing before deciding that the best action is no action at all... probably setting up a "commission" to investigate the issue at a cost of millions beforehand also !

Abdiel

For a govt. that supposedly is determined to rid us allof the evil drink they dont exactly set a good example.

If you go to either Fagans, Kennedys, The Goose or Beaumont House any night of the week and chances are you'll see Bertie and his cronies... now you know where to find him anyway. You know where your taxes are going as well... paying for minders while Bertie goes for a "few pints" !

Victor

Originally posted by Abdiel
Of course blaming it all on drink is very easy. Increasing crime, public disorder - all down to drink or maybe a side effect of an economy

The problem isn't only drink it is: work = money + stress + drink = frayed tempers + lack of respect.

Sparks

This direct democracy you speak of woud have to be implemented by free thinking individuals. Not the kind of govt. that sits on the fence to see what everybody else is doing before deciding that the best action is no action at all... probably setting up a "commission" to investigate the issue at a cost of millions beforehand also !

Actually, direct democracy won't ever be implemented here, not by our governement at least. Vested interests have too strong a grip on them

McGinty

Its ironic that this topic came up, as I was only discussing these same issues with various friends. I think in some ways the celtic tiger has been good but mostly it has made the rich richer and the poor poorer, at the same time those who are in between are convincing themselves that they need that 1/2 million house, or the 1/4 million euro house, the 03 car, the two or three holidays a year, the designer stuff and on and on and on, all of course by loans, mortgages, credit cards and so forth, which then puts them under pressure to keep up with the enormous payments, I am not feeling sorry for those people, but it is this want, want, want all the time that is contributing to the angst that is felt by most of us.

I am lucky in that I am relatively poor, I can never in my wildest dreams buy a house, I can't afford to keep a car, but you know what I am glad because I don't have the pressure, and I think it is the pressure to keep up that is causing so much stress, plus the politicians telling us we've never had it so good, so most people try to convince themsevles they are having it good, which of course isn't really the case.

If we could deal with the corruption and the dishonesty and have proper governmental transparency, plus a a fairer distribution of wealth it would go a long way to improve things. I would love to see that everyone has a home and that homelessness is just a word that is consigned to the history book and not a way of life for some people as is the case now here in Ireland.

Imposter

Originally posted by McGinty
...plus a a fairer distribution of wealth it would go a long way to improve things. I would love to see that everyone has a home and that homelessness is just a word that is consigned to the history book and not a way of life for some people as is the case now here in Ireland.

I agree with all of this except the fairer distribution of wealth bit. People who have a good income have worked for it (except for corruption but that ideally would be weeded out). People who don't want to work should not be allowed piggyback on those who have spent time, energy and money on getting a good education and a good job. Helping those who can't afford an education though is a different matter.

People who are homeless in general are in that situation generally because of either a family fight and/or an addiction and/or mental illness. IMO these causes are what should be tackled and procedures put in place to try and prevent this from happening. Ok you're never going to be able to stop this from happening but then early detection and then attempt to solve the problems is surely what needs to be done. Basically what i'm saying with regard to homeless people is give them the chance to get their lives back on track by helping them with their problems but I don't think 'giving them a home' is a solution. Give them temporary accomodation while helping them but them it should be up to them after that.

McGinty

I agree with all of this except the fairer distribution of wealth bit. People who have a good income have worked for it (except for corruption but that ideally would be weeded out). People who don't want to work should not be allowed piggyback on those who have spent time, energy and money on getting a good education and a good job. Helping those who can't afford an education though is a different matter.

I should have clarified myself there, basically I read somewhere that if there were higher taxes, whereby a certain amount of the tax went directly on education and health, and also a system whereby a person who is either out of work, or on a low paid job had their wages subsidised by a loan until such time they were in a higher paid job, whereby they would repay back the government / system the money that was loaded to them during hard times. This would encourage independence and would encourage a hand up not a hand out mentality. At the moment, we have a hand out society, and yet at the same time, there are CEO's, politicians and so forth, earning huge amounts of money, even when they do a bad job, whereas ordinary joe soap would get sacked for doing badly, they recieve a golden handshake.