Bud Dwyer (and other real-life horrific movies)

ObeyGiant

Following Tusky's advice on a previous thread, I decided it was high time we had a thread dedicated to horrific real-life footage.

And what better way to start it than with Bud Dwyer?

Quite a few years ago, a guy named Bud Dwyer, treasurer to the state of Pennsylvania, called a press conference, supposedly to address charges of bribery. Bud got the conference started, saying stuff about "falsely accused".. then he whipped out a gun. He tried to calm people down, and tried to explain his actions rationally, but the press freaked out.. they rushed the stage, and Bud quickly put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger.

This is all real, and the video is pretty easy to find because CNN, with 20 minutes to go before their main evening news, decided to show the video of Bud Dwyer committing suicide.

(note: if you search the internet for this video, you realise that you are going to be taken to a place where you can download a video of a guy committing suicide. If you didn't realise this, or for some unknown reason, "regret it later", you only have yourself to blame. Only click the link if you know you can handle it)

Strange thing is, I didn't find it disgusting. Just disturbing. I'm not alone in feeling this way - in the decades since Bud's suicide, he's become an offbeat cultural icon, in the same way as Bob Crane, or John Holmes. Recently, there's been a few art exhibitions involving the Bud Dwyer video, with artists rearranging the tape, and playing it over some heavy-metal music.

So - what real-life videos has everyone else found horrific?

Makaveli

You know the way Tusky cut his name out of the other thread. Don't you think he'll just do it again here?
I mean it doesnt bother me in the least, but it seems the mods dont want it posted. My 2 cents.

ObeyGiant

I don't know. I hope not. I was told I was free to start a thread about "real-life horror etc". Part of the reason I started this thread is to get some reasonably discourse on the topic of whether these kinds of real-life horror movies are more disturbing than a lot of the films people discuss here.

Without people being given the option to use their own discretion and good sense to determine whether they can handle the video of Bud Dwyer committing suicide, just as they use their own discretion and good sense to determine whether they can handle the Exorcist, or Texas Chainsaw Massacre - I don't see how we can even reach that kind of level of discussion. It's a lot easier to have this kind of discussion when everyone is on a level footing, rather than basing the entire thing on a second-hand tale of peoples feelings when they saw the film.

Thanks for asking that question.. this is something I meant to put across in my original post.

So, second question guys - are films like the Bud Dwyer suicide more disturbing than most horror films? Are they.. obscene? Seriously, I want to know what people think.

(note: tusky's a he?)

Makaveli

I think they are more disturbing purely because it is reality.
With horror films no matter how messed up or grotesque (sp) they are, it is generally fantasy.
The Exorcist is based on a true story, or so I hear, but because this is a film based on an event, for me it doesn't have the same impact as the Bud Dwyer video or of soldiers being executed.

When you know it's real, I think it stirs up feelings of your own mortality. Real death as opposed to playing dead, you know they are not going to get up afterwards and it certainly has an affect on you. Well imo it does.


As for Tusky being a he, well from some other posts I just made the assumption. Apologies if I'm wrong.

spooky donkey

This story is new to me and it does sound a little disturbing. Im a little but concerned by what you say. I cant look at it now as im in work so i will reserve judgment. It was shown on the news but was it live or did they show it after the event.

Im considering the link, but if i do i`ll leave the discussion open. If anyone wants to see it perhaps they should find it on their own.

OK i`ll get back to this later on when i see the link first.

ObeyGiant

Like I said, it happened 20 minutes before CNN's main evening news, so they had to make a decision quickly. They decided to show it, uncut.

I think it's very hard to judge if something like this is truly offensive, or even obscene. Especially in the Bud Dwyer case - the video has entered into the realm of cultural landmark, and so is just as commonplace as, say.. the monk burning himself to death on the cover of the RATM album, or the image from the Vietnam war of Kim Phuc running, having been burned by napalm. These are things that have been with us so long that they've lost almost all of the qualities that made these images 'shocking'.

I'll gladly go back and edit my original post to take out the link, in return for a genuine discussion about the issues I've touched upon.

Tusky

Hmmm because of the nature of the videos and the "disturbing" and "distressing" effect it may have on some people Ill ask that no1 post any "links" to such videos, If people want to look for them on thier own Thats fine.

Obey : Ill leave thread open for discussion but no links please, and no im not a giiiiiiirl :rolleyes:

spooky donkey

yeah these secenes were disturbing, but you wonder should they have been shown on the news. ive seen some worse things that dident make the news and with good reason.
But it suprised me how often they showed the events of 9/11.

ObeyGiant

Originally posted by spooky donkey
yeah these secenes were disturbing, but you wonder should they have been shown on the news. ive seen some worse things that dident make the news and with good reason.
But it suprised me how often they showed the events of 9/11.

You're now touching on what has probably made the Bud Dwyer case so famous. It pops up in just almost every piece of research or teaching on the topic of media ethics. Were they right to show it?

But that's going off-topic even more than I'd like

Tusky

The media will show anything that will get them "ratings" no matter how inhumane or IMO rediculous.... i.e I DONT FEKKIN CARE THAT DAVID BECHAM HAS A NEW HAIR STYLE ! you know ?

spooky donkey

yeah real life horror gets shown on the news every day! I dident get to see the link before you removed it, nor did i see it on the news but it would not have upset me too much. But there are kids who can be exposed to real life horror in the media all the time. There could have been the od 10 year old using the net stumbling on to boards and seing that link, getting up set and some concerned parent complaining.
Even on the 6one news on RTE things have upset my 5 year old. He would hear about people getting killed some where in the world and get very concerned about it. And that is only hearing it.

Real life horror is all around us, the media loves it, I Dont I prefer when its in a film or a book, not for real.
Im not one of those people that think they want to be a vampire cause its glamrous. Though I do watch Buffy and Angle, and no im not a girl either.

davej

So - what real-life videos has everyone else found horrific?

Channel 4 showed a documentary on the Russian Theatre Hostages thing a week or two ago. It featured camcorder footage from inside the theatre after the russian troops had entered. There were closeups of bodies of terrorists sprawled on the floor with pools of blood everywhere. The female suicide bombers were shown shot dead in their seats.

Interestingly c4 had an online discussion after the show as to whether or not they should have shown the footage.

Another video i've seen is the view from an american gunship (+audio commentary from gunner) as they slaughter terrorists on the ground. It's more disturbing because it seems just like a computer game. This was discussed on boards before.

The most recent stuff to be seen was the footage al jazeera showed during gulf war 2. Dead civilians blown to bits, dead americans with their trousers pulled down etc..

davej

ObeyGiant

Originally posted by spooky donkey
yeah real life horror gets shown on the news every day! I dident get to see the link before you removed it, nor did i see it on the news but it would not have upset me too much.

If you know it was going to upset you, why were you going to check it out?

Originally posted by spooky donkey
Real life horror is all around us, the media loves it, I Dont I prefer when its in a film or a book, not for real.

Almost all of the horror films that we sit around here on this board discussing have at least some basis in reality. It's what makes them so effective. A perfect demonstration of this comes from The Blair Witch Project. When this opened in the US, it was unknown, and so the filmmakers got away with telling people that this was a _true_ story, and it was a huge success. By the time the film reached Europe, we'd learned it wasn't, we'd seen the actors presenting at some MTV awards shows.. the illusion was ruined, and as such, the film wasn't as effective here.

As I mentioned to someone before, I am not posting this in the "Nursery Rhymes" board. I am posting this information in a board that is supposed to be reserved for adults with a certain amount of common sense, and understanding of their limits when it comes to such things. I can sympathise with your 5-year old.. I was an extremely sensitive child, and used to cry thinking about how neglected my less-than-favourite toys must feel.

But I'm not a child any more.. I understand that when someone posts a story about a guy who committed suicide, I understand that if I go looking for this video, I'm going to see a guy committing suicide, and as such, take responsibility for my own actions.

Tusky

Who said This board is reserved for adults ? ...and if somthing a movie is based on "real life" thats fine BUT seeing som1 actually die ( which may be a first for many people ) is somthing alot deeper darker and more disturbing...

In a move you could see people being slaughtered by a mad man with a knife and not blink - however you could see a real life movie of some1 being stabed a few times and be apauled and sickened

[FACT] : about 95% of people that watched that russian soldier video ( most of whom had been warned beforehand ) regreted it - YES its up to the viewer but do YOU really want to be spreading this around ?

Personally i think the people who glorify it and make "fansites" for these people are worse than the people themselfs

Anywho - back to topic, not a movie but i read the complete logs of an american guy who comitted suicide on IRC while the people in the chatroom were viewing him on webcam, disturbing log to say the least.

ObeyGiant

Perhaps "reserved" is the wrong word, because it indicates some sort of exclusion for those that do not meet the criteria, whereas this board is open to all - but when talking about horror movies, you are dealing with what is usually an adult topic. Look through the list of films mentioned on the front page of the Horror board, and you won't see one that is rated less than 15. As a matter of fact, since the Horror board started, I have found one thread dedicated to a film that was even rated 15 - Final Destination 2.

'Real-life' horror films do not affect me as much as some horror films have. Just as you give an example of a man being stabbed, I have seen countless on-screen suicides (possibly the most incredible being The Funeral and Full Metal Jacket). My first reaction when I saw the Bud Dwyer video was that it was nowhere near as graphic, or as extreme as in films. It didn't look "real".

Where are you getting the "fact" about the Russian Solider video? If you follow the link davej posted, you'll see that the majority of comments are along the lines of "This wasn't easy watching, but I'm glad you showed it".

You say that "seeing someone actually die is something a lot deeper, darker and more disturbing". I have no doubt it is - but by watching these things in a window on your computer, or even on the TV gives you a certain amount of distance from the actual event. Hell, the Bud Dwyer thing could all be an elaborate hoax being played on people. If this was the case, would it still be as disturbing? Before you answer that, look at GhostWatch, the BBC's Halloween programme years ago. This was billed as being "live", and was so scary it actually prompted one person (albeit already mentally unstable) to commit suicide. Now, following a MASSIVE campaign (mainly fought by people who watched the show originally) it's been released on DVD, and is being sold as entertainment.

Perhaps I have become "desensitized", but I just cannot look at a video of a person being killed, and feel the same emotions that I do when I see in real life, for example, a cat being run over. Which is not to say I don't feel any emotion, or amn't even disturbed - I already said in the previous thread that the Bud Dwyer tape disturbed me (mainly because, like I said above, it didn't seem at all 'real').

I'm certain I cannot be alone in feeling this way.

spooky donkey

Yeah I feel very desensitised when I watch horror films to a degree that I laugh some times at the way people die. I have been watching horror film since I was very young and they never had an affect on me.
I once saw a so called 30 second snuff film a few years ago and it disturbed me greatly. I wouldent even go into the details here but after having examined it a few times with the person who showed it me we concluded it was a fake. A very slight frame change was noticed just before the person dies. Because at first i thought was real, when i decided it was fake it was still a little disturbing that someone would even make a fake like it. I supose i wanted to believe it was fake.

Yeah i would have had a look at that clip of bud dwyer dieing, but I didn’t go looking for it.

Makaveli

I watched the Bud Dwyer clip and although it didnt do much to me the bit where

the blood flows down the side of his head from the hole where the bullet exited made it all sink in.

. It was a weird feeling, not a very nice one, but it hasnt traumatised me or anything.

The thing is, I can still picture the above incident in my mind, whereas with films it's like I see it and that's it, it's forgotten nearly.

ObeyGiant mentioned the Full Metal Jacket scene and when I think of it, the first time I saw the film it did shock me. But in the end, I knew it wasnt real. The Dwyer clip had a different affect on me.

But I agree with ObeyGiant when he says that it's very different seeing something in real life and seeing something on screen. It has a totally different effect.
You can only be desensitized to a point. If you witness something pretty harrowing like a car accident, no matter how desensitized you are, it will, imo, have a pretty serious emotional affect on you. Something that a video clip may not.
It's almost like building up an immunity. The more you see the less effect it has the next time you see something similar. This in the long run is probably a bad thing, because it may cause problems when trying to express emotions.

Ah, anyway, it's late, and I'm rambling. This thread could just as well be on humanities.

Tusky

Well I cant be arsed spending ten minutes writing each post on this thread BUT I what I will finish on is this - and its just a personal opinion,

Movies v.rarely shock me and at most for a few minutes, but when I see som1 really die in one of these "videos" it sticks with me for alot longer and because of this I dislike them being spread around.

That is all