Garda search powers and access to bars??

jank

well the title says it all really just want to see if there is a link or something to my answers

what are the condtions to getting refused from a bar
i heard that if u are 18 u have a right to be in a bar id or no id but isnt that a catch 22!!(i regerally get refused with my passport and me being sober)

also one more thing do the guards have a right to ask u for id if ur on the street heard too that they have no such right as u do not have to carry id around with u and are they allowed search u on the steet

heard a funny one aswell that if ur talking to a shade that if u speak back to them in irish that they have to speak to u in that language and that if they dont understand tough **** they cant do anything about it

makes sense if u think about that irish is the offical language of the country!!
love to try it out but they'll prob put assault charges on u or something like that and lock u up

so anybody willing to help me out!!
cheers

Victor

Originally posted by jank
what are the condtions to getting refused from a bar i heard that if u are 18 u have a right to be in a bar id or no id but isnt that a catch 22!!(i regerally get refused with my passport and me being sober)

Yes everyone is entitled to entry to a pub (not all bars are pubs), but if you are refused, such refusal must be reasonable and non-discriminatory and need not be explained at the time. Do not show them your passport up front, only show ID if asked. Say “hi” to the doorman before he says anything.

Originally posted by jank
also one more thing do the guards have a right to ask u for id if ur on the street heard too that they have no such right as u do not have to carry id around with u and are they allowed search u on the steet

They have the right to ask for your name and address. If you refuse or they are under the impression you have given false details, they may arrest you.

Originally posted by jank
heard a funny one aswell that if ur talking to a shade that if u speak back to them in irish that they have to speak to u in that language and that if they dont understand tough **** they cant do anything about it

Irish is a subject they do in the Garda College, so don’t necessarily expect to have better Irish than them. You may be exposing yourself to trouble you don’t need. Based on this post, perhaps work on your English speling and grammar first.

Originally posted by jank
makes sense if u think about that irish is the offical language of the country!!

It is the fisrt official language, not the only one.

Originally posted by jank
love to try it out but they'll prob put assault charges on u or something like that and lock u up

No, they just charge you with wasting Garda time.

jank

well i did get an A (JC) and a B1(LC) in irish so im not as u call lacking in that respect so i probably do have better irish than most but not all garda's out there!!

how could i be arrested for wasting police time if i respond in irish
its not as if id be speaking in klingon or something

irish is a big loophole in law here. i remember my uncle getting off for refusing to pay £500 in fines (this was quite a few years ago) because the tickets were layed out in english and french( we just joined the EEC) he got off scott free cause he claimed he wasnt fluent in english!! it was the coporations fault
pity u cant do it now!!

so getting arrested for wasting police time is a no no
getting arrested and having false claims made against u is probably more realistic!! but then again if that happenes u could always sue for false arrest!!

vasch_ro

Originally posted by jank

also one more thing do the guards have a right to ask u for id if ur on the street heard too that they have no such right as u do not have to carry id around with u and are they allowed search u on the steet



makes sense if u think about that irish is the offical language of the country!!
love to try it out but they'll prob put assault charges on u or something like that and lock u up

Yes they have varied powers to stop and search under various acts and a common law power of search, under many acts if they are stopping you for a particular reason and you refuse to give a name and address then they can arrest you to verify your name and address sec 107 of the Road Traffic Act would be an example of this


unfortunately I would say that this happens to most police people every single weekend, even if they do have trouble understanding you all they have to do is get another police person who does speak fluent Irish or indeed get an interpreter
as you can imagine a lot of subversives are known to try this trick so you may get more trouble than you bargain for!!!!
there was also a judge working in Dun Laoire until quite recently who could speak fluent irish and you of course have the right to be dealt with through irish as you do with every state body!!

vasch_ro

Originally posted by jank

so getting arrested for wasting police time is a no no
getting arrested and having false claims made against u is probably more realistic!! but then again if that happenes u could always sue for false arrest!!

I suspect that you may be watching to much coronation street
you could of course sue for unlawful arrest if you were falsely arrested ,

but then again we are talking about entry into pub scenarios here so I would imagine that the Criminal Justice (Public Order )Act would be invoked by any police nearby

I know that there are problems with Police in Donegal but lets face it most of them are above aboard, anyway if you were so worried about being falsely arrested surely you woulf have your solicitors number on quick dial for just such an emergency !!:)

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by Victor
Yes everyone is entitled to entry to a pub (not all bars are pubs), but if you are refused, such refusal must be reasonable and non-discriminatory and need not be explained at the time.

Sorry, this does not make sense to me. If the grounds for refusal are 'reasonable and non-discriminatory' why is the person refused not entitled to an explanation at the time? Seems reasonable to me.

This would be a huge flaw in the system. If people are not given a reason for being refused, is it any wonder that so many vent their grievance by assuming that they are being discriminated against on race/gender/age/sexuality grounds?

We ALL pay the price for the ensuing court cases. It's called 4.50 for a bottle of Heineken in some 'upmarket' Dublin bars.

Victor

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
Sorry, this does not make sense to me. If the grounds for refusal are 'reasonable and non-discriminatory' why is the person refused not entitled to an explanation at the time? Seems reasonable to me.

For example, there are incidents where it it prudent for a doorman to not to give a reason in particular if the potential customer is intoxiacated. Giving them an actual reason in such circumstances may only provoke them further (even if the main reason isn't that they are intoxiacated).

p.pete

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
We ALL pay the price for the ensuing court cases. It's called 4.50 for a bottle of Heineken in some 'upmarket' Dublin bars.

You can even pay 5.50 if you go somewhere like spirit, and that is after paying god knows how much to just get in there.

The cost of beer doesn't really have any relationships to the cost of court cases though, it may correlate to who actually gets in though - which could be an interesting one. Is it easier to get into pubs where the beer is cheaper? Probably moving away from the main topic of this thread though.

rubadub

"its not as if id be speaking in klingon or something"
-but what if you did? what happens if a person is caught and cant speak english, cant read or right and is speaking a language which nobody understands? what if you are dumb, deaf, blind illiterate mongolian. i doubt any garda speak mongolian, the ignorant gardai i met dont even know the laws they are meant to enforce.

"The cost of beer doesn't really have any relationships to the cost of court cases though"
-yes it does. people claim huge amounts for falling down drunk in a pub, so pub insurance skyrockets, so the publicans overheads increase so he charges more for beer. put a cap on claims and it is solved. the government should run its own insurance company then they would care about it and ask judges to cop on and stop the ridiculous payments. the government just dont care about it at the moment.

"Is it easier to get into pubs where the beer is cheaper?"
-yes in a roundabout way. more exclusive pubs (i.e. pubs which exlude people, "hard to get into") have fancy decor and tend to charge more for drink due to higher overheads and because posers will pay more to be seen there. lots of exclusive resturaunts demand people wear a jacket and charge more than mcdonalds (an easier place to get into) do for a meal. no revelations, just common sense.

"love to try it out but they'll prob put assault charges on u or something like that and lock u up"
-if youre lucky theyll just beat the **** out of you like those 2 middle-aged women a few years back. you may then get an apology like they did. if you are unlucky theyll say you assaulted them and go to prison. dont mess with the biggest criminal gang in ireland. if stopped on the street always cooperate and be civil. i was stopped every week when i was around 18, couldve been arrested many times but wasnt because i chatted, cooperated and joked with them. give them lip and theyll give it back 10 fold. dont try clamming up with the "im within my rights" bullsh1t. you have NO rights. the courts will believe anything a garda says over a drunk.

gardai can stop and arrest anybody on the streets for nothing since the "public order" offence came in. if you look at a garda funny they can claim its a public order offence. they can search anybody on the street and just claim they "had reason to believe you had drugs". scum sub-human scum, but treat them nice (sickening as it is) and they wont bite.

jank

and were suppossed to live in a democracy!!

police brutallity is widespread i think. Have often heard storys where drugs were planted on youngsters cause they were caught drinking underage so they would rat out the guys that got them the drink. The older i get the truer it sounds

The courts in this country is a sham anyway so the police give out a beating rather than seeing some youngster get off again with a warning!! no wonder this country is going to ****

were going backwards not forward

vasch_ro

Originally posted by rubadub
"its not as if id be speaking in klingon or something"
-but what if you did? what happens if a person is caught and cant speak english, cant read or right and is speaking a language which nobody understands? what if you are dumb, deaf, blind illiterate mongolian. i doubt any garda speak mongolian, the ignorant gardai i met dont even know the laws they are meant to enforce.


gardai can stop and arrest anybody on the streets for nothing since the "public order" offence came in. if you look at a garda funny they can claim its a public order offence. they can search anybody on the street and just claim they "had reason to believe you had drugs". scum sub-human scum, but treat them nice (sickening as it is) and they wont bite.

Now heres another really well researched post just bursting with hard facts and evidence,
firstly have you ever heard of interpreters they are people who are available to translate foreign languages in order to aid communication between two parties who speak different languages,
also with regard to blind people there is a system called braille to help communicate with them.

Now secondly there is no such thing as "The Public Order Offence" but for your enlightenment and to ensure further more realistic posts I have listed three offences from the Criminal Justice Public Order Act 1994 as you can see the Irish Police cannot simply arrest you for looking funny at them I have had a look at the whole act and it sets out clearly what the powers of the poilce are in relation this. You will find the entire act here
http://www.bailii.org/ie/legis/num_act/cjoa1994284/index.html

calling people sub human scum is not really constructive and detracts from any argument that you may wish to pursue. Police people are just like you and me they are ordinary people who go out to work every day just like the rest of us (or most of us) to try and put a crust on the table and a roof over their heads. And whether you like it or not, those ordinary people just like you and me risk their lives literally every day that the go to work .If we are going to criticise our police force please let's at least get our facts correct and not lower ourselves to gutterlevel using foul language and let's try and remain objective remember that just because some priests have been convicted of sex abuse that does not make every priest a sex abuser, there are a couple of bad apples in every single walk of life including the judiciary.

Lastly just remember its a very thin blue line out there, but one day you may need that blue line to help you!!!!

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (PUBLIC ORDER) ACT 1994 -

SECT 4 Intoxication in public place.

4.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person to be present in any public place
while intoxicated to such an extent as would give rise to a reasonable
apprehension that he might endanger himself or any other person in his
vicinity.

(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on
summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £100.



Disorderly conduct in public place.

5.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person in a public place to engage in
offensive conduct—

( a ) between the hours of 12 o'clock midnight and 7 o'clock in the morning
next following, or

( b ) at any other time, after having been requested by a member of the Garda
Síochána to desist.

(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on
summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500.

(3) In this section "offensive conduct" means any unreasonable behaviour
which, having regard to all the circumstances, is likely to cause serious
offence or serious annoyance to any person who is, or might reasonably be
expected to be, aware of such behaviour.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (PUBLIC ORDER) ACT 1994 -

SECT 6 Threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour in public place.

6.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person in a public place to use or
engage in any threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent
to provoke a breach of the peace or being reckless as to whether a breach of
the peace may be occasioned.

(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on
summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term
not exceeding 3 months or to both.

vasch_ro

Originally posted by jank
. Have often heard storys where drugs were planted on youngsters cause they were caught drinking underage so they would rat out the guys that got them the drink. The older i get the truer it sounds

Stories, you say so yourself , urban myths
give me facts
links to newspaper articles anything to back up your claims
back up your posts

Victor

vasch_ro, there is also an offence along the lines of "failure to move on / follow the instructions of a Garda" which can be used to arrest anyone if they insist on staying somewhere after they have been told to move on by a Garda. This has a great potential for abuse.

Originally posted by vasch_ro
Stories, you say so yourself , urban myths give me facts links to newspaper articles anything to back up your claims back up your posts

Yesterday's Evening Herald, 18 year old dies after being released from Garda custody (I didn't buy the paper, so no, I don't have the full story).

vasch_ro

Originally posted by Victor
vasch_ro, there is also an offence along the lines of "failure to move on / follow the instructions of a Garda" which can be used to arrest anyone if they insist on staying somewhere after they have been told to move on by a Garda. This has a great potential for abuse.

that section is as follows
CRIMINAL JUSTICE (PUBLIC ORDER) ACT 1994 - SECT 8
Failure to comply with direction of member of Garda Síochána.

8.—(1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána finds a person in a public place
and suspects, with reasonable cause, that such person—

( a ) is or has been acting in a manner contrary to the provisions of
section 4, 5, 6, 7 or 9, or

( b ) without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is acting in a manner
which consists of loitering in a public place in circumstances, which may
include the company of other persons, that give rise to a reasonable
apprehension for the safety of persons or the safety of property or for the
maintenance of the public peace, the member may direct the person so suspected
to do either or both of the following, that is to say:

(i) desist from acting in such a manner, and

(ii) leave immediately the vicinity of the place concerned in a
peaceable or orderly manner.

(2) It shall be an offence for any person, without lawful authority or
reasonable excuse, to fail to comply with a direction given by a member of the
Garda Síochána under this section.


Everything has potential for abuse, thats why there is a system of checks and balances, The Irish Police at the moment can be subject to
Criminal Charges
Internal Discipline
and indeed civil remedy this leaves three avenuse open to the public as to redress , not one avenue, three avenues
The Evening Herald has its own agenda in relation to that story
there are lots of accusations no hard facts,

Kappar

The Irish Police at the moment can be subject to Criminal Charges, Internal Discipline

It's not likely to happen for one or more reasons like intimidation(sp?) people are afraid off harrasment if they make a complaint, 42% of complaints in 1999 were either withdrawn, not proceeded with or deemed inadmissible. (http://www.justice.ie/802569B20047F907/vWeb/pcSBHN4YPEZU)seems alot.

I've seen garda beat people many times for relitivly small things.

One of the worst i've seen was when a Garda chased two teens (14ish) travalers down my road catch them then begin to kick the **** out of them when they were on the ground he bet them with his torch and kicked them in the head. Some people on my road had to come out and tell the garda to stop, he told them to **** off and mind their own business. Then a garda car came and the kids were taken off very quickly. Now some of these people who came out were the type that if you told them that story they wouold heave said "No the garda wouln't do that"

I also know this guy whos father is a very high up garda and he can do what he likes he has a 17 and has a garda id that his da got him he's been taking out the sister's car for years and when he gets caught by the garda they beat but then when his da arrives he makes the garda say sorry and oddly have no record of him being their, this guy is wld and he has no record at all!! Fair? Legal?

rubadub

"firstly have you ever heard of interpreters they are people who are available to translate foreign languages in order to aid communication between two parties who speak different languages, also with regard to blind people there is a system called braille to help communicate with them."
-i think you missed my point altogether! what happens if a garda stops you and cannot communicate with you at all, if you speak in a made up language for which there is no, and cannot be an interperator. didnt mean to offend any mongolians, just wonders what happens in this case.

"Now secondly there is no such thing as "The Public Order Offence" but for your enlightenment and to ensure further more realistic posts I have listed three offences from the Criminal Justice Public Order Act 1994 as you can see the Irish Police cannot simply arrest you for looking funny at them I have had a look at the whole act and it sets out clearly what the powers of the poilce are in relation this. You will find the entire act here
http://www.bailii.org/ie/legis/num_...4284/index.html"
-ooooooooh i'm so sorry for not typing out the full legal description for something which you seemed to know exactly what i was talking about. i read the act and it seems to me they CAN arrest you for looking funny at them. did you miss the bit

(3) In this section "offensive conduct" means any unreasonable behaviour
which, having regard to all the circumstances, is likely to cause serious
offence or serious annoyance to any person who is, or might reasonably be
expected to be, aware of such behaviour.

a neighbour of mine was arrested for using the word wanker jokingly in a conversation on the phone. 34 year old accountant on on his own, middle of the afternoon, sober, talking calmly and normally, wearing a shirt and trousers. a garda deemed it offensive behaviour just as they could deem giving them a dirty look offensive behaviour. dont be so naive as to think all gardai are saints who dont have bad days or dont like the look of some people. you said it yourself there are bad apples. bad apples with power are bad news.

"give me facts links to newspaper articles anything to back up your claims back up your posts"
-if its written down it must be true.... you ask for papers then say they have their own agenda, which papers would you believe? i have read absolute lies in the irish times which is one of the most respected papers here.

"calling people sub human scum is not really constructive and detracts from any argument that you may wish to pursue."
-go down to the chemist and get a bottle of cop-on and a dose of humour.

vasch_ro

lets be serious here for a second I accept that not all that is written is true and I did point out that The Herald has its own agenda, basically its called trial by media, the story was in no way objective

What I meant was that it is very easy for me to come along and say we have all heard stories about the amazing policeman who saved my granny from two coke head rapists and put his life on the line for my granny and now is going to be a desk jockey for the rest of his life,
of course we have all heard stories, I have heard stories about goldilocks and the three little pigs thats all that they are STORIES
I could post what ever stories i want.

Of course there are bad apples, there are in every walk of life , even heaven had a bad apple and he got cast out
but lets not paint every one with same brush surely thats reasonable to ask ???????

lastly fair enough if you like to use the words "sub human scumbags" as humour in a non humourous context fair enough
I did not find it funny

i think you missed my point altogether! what happens if a garda stops you and cannot communicate with you at all, if you speak in a made up language for which there is no, and cannot be an interperator. didnt mean to offend any mongolians, just wonders what happens in this case.

It is my limited understanding that if this person was arretsed and spoke in a makey up language than they would be held in custody and refused bail in the police station and brought to court at the first available oppurtunity as their identity could not be confirmed

as for bad apples with powers are bad news i agree , the Dept of Health offices was recently refurbished while beaumont hospital had to suspend some of its dialysis services, absolute power corrupts absolutely , but there is nothing we can do about that
how ever there is a system of checks and balances where our police force is concerned

jank

vasch_ro i think ur a bit naive

didnt i say there were stories!!(Not facts)
didnt i say the i believe them more and more as my hair falls out!!

i didnt mean them to be fact just stories

and on a final note i myself had a very bad experience with the gardas in which i was assualted but i was reletively lucky as compared to my friends

I was taken to the station where as i was charged with assault and then locked up for up to three hours(nice paint work)

then let go and they said they would be in contact with me

well never heard of them again and this was 3 years ago( wonder why??)


im not going into the details about the incident which lead up to this cause its way too complicated but the fact is i was in the wrong place at the wrong time
but the moral of the story is they have complete power over you and there is **** all u can do about


my advice to vasch_ro is that to get out more and see these "Gardas" in action you might change your tone then

amp

Originally posted by jank

i didnt mean them to be fact just stories.

While it may appear a little ironic, I feel I must get all Garda-like and explain to Jank in a thoroughly non-violent way that he can't post whatever stories he wants here.

Humanities is not a place where you can rant on about stuff that happened to you. This thread is for the discussion of the behaviour, good or bad of our national police force.

Therefore, you must use facts, not stories, to illustrate your points. This is in the charter.

If you do want to talk about stuff that happened to you then I suggest you get a Journal when they become available to the general public or post to another possibly less fascist board.

jank

well i never said i could post whatever stories i want!!
u quoted someone else and blamed me for saying it:(

whats the deal with that

and i used my personal experience to back up my position of this thread which i think is better than just copying and pasting some facts, posting them on this board and thinking to yourself" that should show them"

adds a bit of colour to an otherwise bland disscussion dont ye think

amp

Wrong quote, same point. Now, back to the topic at hand, shall we?

kaimera

Originally posted by jank
what are the condtions to getting refused from a bar
i heard that if u are 18 u have a right to be in a bar id or no id but isnt that a catch 22!!(i regerally get refused with my passport and me being sober)

refused entry:

underage
no ID
intoxicated.

As for being 18 and having a right to be in a bar, peoples over 16 can stay in a bar till closing under current law.

It's being changed soon to stop underage kiddies from being in bars.
and from having young kids in bars aswell.

Current watershed in 7.00 but it's gonna be changed to an earlier time.

jank

Originally posted by amp
Wrong quote, same point. Now, back to the topic at hand, shall we?

great apology amp i keep it in mind:cool:

Victor

Originally posted by rubadub
"firstly have you ever heard of interpreters they are people who are available to translate foreign languages in order to aid communication between two parties who speak different languages, also with regard to blind people there is a system called braille to help communicate with them."
-i think you missed my point altogether! what happens if a garda stops you and cannot communicate with you at all, if you speak in a made up language for which there is no, and cannot be an interperator. didnt mean to offend any mongolians, just wonders what happens in this case.

Actually there was a recent case about a Mongolian language student charged with rape(?) who spent 18 months on remand in Cloverhill, purely on translation errors (no proper translation was done).