Authority of the Church

smiles

A question, I don't know about other denominations of christianity but I'm sure there's similar points, would you agree with all the articles and attached proclaimations of your faith?

For example the Catholic church frowns upon sex before marriage - whereas personally I disagree - I can see the fundamental point, that the church wanted a family unit to exist in case of pregnancy and so the child would have a full family, which in general is considered to be 'better' for the child (i'm giving this is the general concept and not my own belief).

Then there are others such as being anti-homosexuality which I can't agree with (as in I'm not anti-homosexuality).

I remember seeing one of the members of boards talk about how it was a sin that someone was Gay but it was ok because God would forgive them....

Doesn't work for me.

Does anyone else feel like I do about bits of their various religions? I think the messages had a general goodness in them but have been completely outdated in the last 2 millenia.

<< Fio >>

JustHalf

For example the Catholic church frowns upon sex before marriage - whereas personally I disagree - I can see the fundamental point, that the church wanted a family unit to exist in case of pregnancy and so the child would have a full family, which in general is considered to be 'better' for the child (i'm giving this is the general concept and not my own belief).

It is backed up by scripture. You're not supposed to have sex before marriage.

You're also not meant to do a lot of things, that we all do. Pre-marital sex is hardly an unforgivable sin.

When people think that pre-marital sex is a sin, they class it in the same group as murder and rape, and they think "it's not that bad, so it can't be a sin". The fact is, a lot of little things that we don't consider as being that bad at all are in that group. I was rude to my mother and father today, and that was in that same group. The problem is, you're using human values to judge how bad or not bad things are, and you're going to end up with the wrong answer. You're looking in the wrong place to understand what it is about sin that makes it so bad.

Put simply, sin is anything that moves you away from God. Moving away from God is such a terrible thing... like the son leaving the house of his father wishing he were dead... that nothing is worse than this. And it is a terrible thing that we are so evil, all of us, that each and every one of us break God's heart every day by moving away from him.

Trying to run away from sin isn't the way. Trying to run towards God is.

Then there are others such as being anti-homosexuality which I can't agree with (as in I'm not anti-homosexuality).

What do you mean by anti-homosexuality? Hate towards gays? Thinking homosexuality is wrong? Thinking homosexual acts are wrong? What do you mean?

I remember seeing one of the members of boards talk about how it was a sin that someone was Gay but it was ok because God would forgive them....

It's not a sin to be gay. Having homosexual sex is, if I recall correctly. I

But I don't see why non-Christians get so fixated on what Christians consider a sin and what isn't. I do not mean noticing bigots who claim that all the gays are going to hell... I mean the simple "that is a sin, that isn't" kind of thing. It's something you only need to be concerned with if you are a Christian, and even then the point is to trust on God to help you not to sin, no matter what that sin is or even if you don't realise you're sinning at all.

chernobyl

Originally posted by JustHalf
The problem is, you're using human values to judge how bad or not bad things are, and you're going to end up with the wrong answer.

No i wont. I am a realtively intelligent human being and am we capable of judging right from wrong and defining what is a sin and having sex before marriage is not a sin.

JustHalf

Chernobyl, do you believe that human beings will always know what is absolutely right or wrong?

Besides, that paragraph was discussing how bad something was, as opposed to if something was bad or not. I was trying to talk about the equality of all sin, and that what makes sin bad is not the actions required to sin, but the effect that it has on our relationship with God.

chernobyl

Originally posted by JustHalf
Chernobyl, do you believe that human beings will always know what is absolutely right or wrong?

There is no such thing as absolutely right or absolutely wrong, just degrees of.....and we do have logical laws for making those decisions easier.

Nevyn

sex out side marraige according to the catholic church is infact fornication and a Mortaler , ir a mortal sin you are forfitting ur chance to go to heaven by doing it. But then again any act of sex in a marriage that is not for the sole purpose of creating another life is fornication.

but then again why all the fuss if an act of contrition on your death bed get you a clean slate ?

why get forgiveness if ur not contrite enough to never do it again ?

chernobyl

Originally posted by Thaed
but then again why all the fuss if an act of contrition on your death bed get you a clean slate ?

Its complete bollox. No matter how extreme you have been or whatever act of evil(s) you have commited, as long as you accept the churches blah blah [even in your last moments and we know you are doing it just to cover your ass] and ask god for forgivness, then its all good.

JustHalf

Chernobyl, you do realise that you are saying that there is not absolute authority on what is right and what is wrong on a Christian community forum?

No Christian can possibly accept that. They can disagree over what is right and what is wrong, but they certainly won't claim that there is no absolute right and wrong.

The amazing thing is if you honestly ask God to forgive you for your sins, then he actually will. Jesus died on the cross to make that possible.

Chernobyl, I'm asking you to stop this ranting. You're basically blurting out misunderstandings about Christianity, and calling them a load of b*ll*x (and not even "this is b*ll*x BECAUSE"), which really doesn't do anything other than clutter up the place with nonsense.

Thaed... there seems to be a lot of hangups that quite a lot of Christians have towards sex that really aren't backed up by scripture. This then makes quite a lot of people think, not just that these Christians are prudes, but that being a Christian requires you to be an absolute prude.

You're not supposed to have sex outside of marriage. However, inside of marriage, there's nothing wrong with having sex with your spouse to please them. Absolutely nothing. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "do not practice oral sex".

But a quite a few Christians are scared of sex and sexuality. They think you can't check people out, thinking that this is lust. Lust isn't like that (lust isn't merely sexual attraction) and is very much misunderstood. Lust is quite an unwholesome thing, which involves you dehumanising someone as you get your kicks. I can look at a girl and recognise how much of a mynx she is without lusting after her. Sexual attraction is perfectly natural.

It really hurts me to see some Christians doing this, as before I became a Christian I had this problem (and am therefore aware of how limiting, annoying and altogether damaging this can be) and this was one of the first things that God sorted out in me.

Evil Phil

Originally posted by Thaed
sex out side marraige according to the catholic church is infact fornication and a Mortaler , ir a mortal sin you are forfitting ur chance to go to heaven by doing it.

Not true, fornication is not a mortal sin. Mortal sin is, by definition, unforgivable. It is the view of the modern church that everybody is capable of feeling remorse and therefore will be forgiven by God if they should feel remorse.

JustHalf

Ah, you kerrazy Catholics with your "mortal sins".

The differences of opinion between different Christian faiths would make up a small book though

I'm a bit dissappointed by the tendency to refer to the Catholic church as the authority on Christianity by non-Christians. I can understand believing Catholics doing it though (for obvious reasons).

What seems to be happening is people are saying "haha the Catholic church believe this HAHA christianity is retarded" when many times what they have a problem with is Catholic tradition or something that Catholics and Protestants disagree on.

llatsni

Actually in the words of Jesus himself "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven" except one, sinning against the Holy Spirit.
See: Matthew 12:30-32 and Mark 3:28-30

Mark explains this well, the only unforgivable sin is the sin of knowing someone or something is working by the power of the Holy Spirit and proclaiming that it is working by the power of Satan. Just as the 'teachers of the law' did to Jesus.

There ya go.

Excelsior

To get back on the initial topic, I attend a Presbyterian Church. Presbyterianism is governed by a document called the , Westminster Confession which was written in the 1600's.

This is not scripture and so Presbyterians do not have to believe and agree with all of it. In fact, Presbyterian ministers are given a whole module in training on how they can disagree with tenets and still fulfill the spirit of the document.

So to answer you Smiles, the church I attend, in its own constitution, accepts the Bible as the only true source of guidance for Christian churches.

The other points you raised were dealt with really well by Just Half so I won't cover them again.

Talliesin

Originally posted by JustHalf
But I don't see why non-Christians get so fixated on what Christians consider a sin and what isn't.

Well there are a few reasons. One is that many who were raised Christian encountered Christian morality primarily as the justification behind punishments they received as a child.

Another, related, reason is that historically Christian beliefs about morality informed social beliefs about morality, which in turn informed civil legislation. Had there been no Christian belief that homosexuality was immoral (to take an example already mentioned in this thread) then there would most likely have been no civil legislation against homosexuality and/or homosexual acts and same-sex marriages would still be recognised (indeed our very concept of civil marriage is based pretty directly on the concepts of marriage that the more influential Christian Churches have held, and hence anyone who disagrees with any of the legalities of civil marriage can often place the blame there).

Of course that is more to do with Christendom than Christianity, and many Christians today would believe that the civil authority should be a secular one, with some even going so far as to mistrust any point of contact between religious and civil authority.

Morality still informs how we interact, and hence moral stances (whether they are general moral guidelines or rigid decrees) that a religious community may have affects how they interact with the rest of us.

At the extremes of moral debate there isn't much discord. At one extreme Christians would generally believe that gunning people down in the street for entertainment is a big no-no. The rest of us would generally believe that too so there isn't any disagreement.
At the other extreme many members of some denominations wouldn't eat meat on Good Friday, the rest of us generally wouldn't even notice and again there isn't any disagreement (though if I was dining with Catholics or another denomination with that practice I obviously wouldn't eat meat as a simple matter of good manners).

There are going to be times though when any two people who hold different moral views will disagree to the point of causing some discord. If one or both of those moral views is informed by doctrine, scripture or tradition then this discord will become a matter of two communities rather than two individuals.

For the most part I think it's healthy for a society to have some disagreement, even mild discord, over these points. It is healthy to have ones views challenged, and being open to such challenging helps to keep ones morality a vital response to what one considers to be its source (whether that is the Word of God, respect for humanity, or something else) rather than an ossified inhumane rule.
It is obviously not healthy to have communities and individuals at each others' throats, and everyone, especially those respected within religious communities, should try to prevent that from happening; but we can't work to prevent it unless we know that it is an inevitable by-product of allowing differing moral views to co-exist in our society.

DeVore

Here's my two cent and its something that over the last year I've come not only to believe but to live.


"Morality" (and I only use the word in the vernacular) in Ireland is a twisted joke of a thing.

"Morality" here has at its centre "Thou shalt not XYZ" rather then "I shall not".

It has become such that to even say "he's a very moral person"... is akin to saying "he's a total square and a judgemental bastard".

What pisses me off about Catholics in particular and Christians in a wider sense in this country is that many use "morality" to impose their particular lifestyle morals on others.

In the last year I've taken to living my life as *I* see fit and laying down some morals for me to live by.... unfortunately I have to live in a country where "thou shalt not" translates to "do as I say" and what they do remains something considerably different...

DeV.
ps: I'm not Christian-bashing... but since they compromise the vast majority of religious types in this country they naturally come in for the largest amount of criticism...

Nevyn

Originally posted by JustHalf


I'm a bit dissappointed by the tendency to refer to the Catholic church as the authority on Christianity by non-Christians. I can understand believing Catholics doing it though (for obvious reasons).

Well the reason that I would refer to the catholic church would be simple I was reared as a catholic and was a practing catholic until the age of 16. So I know catholic dogma and tradition a lot better the the broads understanding I have of the other types of christianity , ie the Church of the latter day staints, baptists, church of Ireland ect.

nadir

I dont get religion, it doesn't make any sence.
I mean jesus was pretty cool. But it all kinda got carried away since then. One fundamental problem i have with it is, muslims think they are right, buddists think they have the answer and all the other groups and so on. How does this work, isnt it a little wierd to follow the local religion, i.e what you have been exposed to in your life and then, disagree with everyone elses experiences. This just gives the impression that religios groups are closed circles that fail to recognize the possibility that they are wrong. Im an aethiest, but a least I accept that I dont know all the answers and that my philosophies are possibly seriosly flawed. Anyhow dont mean to be cramping your style in your forum, just a thought.
:ninja:

jesus_freak

Can you honestly say that you've investigated religion? Two years ago I thought I knew exactly what Christianity was (I was brought up in a Christian country, right?) but then I found that I was wrong.

Before I became a Christian I investigated several religions, but Christianity was the only one that stood up to scrutiny. I believe that Christianity is the truth, because I've taken a good long look at it. Why do you believe that there is no God? Surely that belief requires as much evidence as mine.

JF

nadir

I was brought up a christian, as in i had to go to church when i was a kid and all that, but I hated it. My parents dont believe either but they still made me go. Not sure why. I then studied physics in college and decided for definate that religion didnt make any sence, I mean does religion explain any of the myriad of scientific phenomenons around us, much of these questions are fully answered, or answered in partial by science, but not by any religion ive come across. It seems so small, to think that god made everything for us, and we are just a tiny spec in an ever expanding universe, which is possibly just one universe of many. I also have seen many flaws in christianity.
Jeasus freeak, you say
quote
but Christianity was the only one that stood up to scrutiny.

dinasaurs;
dont remember any of those in the bible.

there is also new evidence pointing to life outside of earth in distant solar systems, mass spectrometer readings have shown spectra very similar to those emitted from bacteria found on earth. I believe this could not be explained by christianity, although i guess they will try. Just like when galileo said the world was round, Its all like a big joke.
Even if there was a god, i would not accept him, If there was one all powerfull being in chargre of the world today, that being would suck, look at all the bad stuff that goes on, and i dont accept that crap about there needs to be evil to make good. That means that you have resigned yourself to letting an equal amount of good and bad. Dont get me wrong, i believe in balance but that does not transcribe to all matters of life, like decisions humans make. we are god, we are the only part of the universe we know that can look on itself and therefore decide our own fate, we rule owr own destiny(to an extent i.e probability, heisenburg uncertainty .etc, lol).
Faith is blindness, It does not allow for change, Its so high and mighty for anyone to be so sure they have the answer, how can you know, how, what gives you the right to preach when you have no proof i have no faith, I want to be alone in my thought. I dont want to be part of any combined ideal, i like having my own ideas that are unique to me.
Its old dogma, might have believed in it a few hundred years ago, but not now.

So there you have it.

sanvean

Originally posted by jesus_freak
Can you honestly say that you've investigated religion?

I have. and although I haven't come to the same conclusion as nadir, I would have to say, on the whole, i don't find christianity as the answer - certainly not in a religious manner. I find it particularly interesting that of all the 'born again' christians, most of these were - to a large degree - brought up in at least some environment indebted to christianity. and the reverse is true (if you look at islam, etc). conversion is surprisingly small considering that (insert your religion here) is the only means to obtain salvation. Although, I have read that Islam is the fastest growing religion in Ireland, and a relatively high percentage of that is through conversion.

as for whether we can have 'proof' either way, we can't. at least not just yet. There is no proof for - or against - the existence of god, not conclusively anyway. Your 'proof' is still just a leap of faith.

jesus_freak

Christianity is not spreading very fast in western Europe (though I can testify that conversions do happen here ), but it is still spreading very fast in the third world:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3933-618973,00.html

Could you tell me what you believe Christians believe? Up until last year I was sure I had a very good grasp of it, but I didn't. So I'd be very interested to know how well informed you are. (I hope that doesn't sound rude, I'm genuinely interested).

Originally posted by sanvean
as for whether we can have 'proof' either way, we can't. at least not just yet. There is no proof for - or against - the existence of god, not conclusively anyway. Your 'proof' is still just a leap of faith.

I couldn't agree more. I have made a leap of faith. But it wasn't a leap in the dark. I carefully informed myself about Christianity (I looked into Islam, amongst other things, but was able to dismiss them all) until I reached the point where I could get down on my knees on the assumption that God was listening, and pray to Him.

In fact, I feel it's an integral part of Christianity that God would never leave conclusive proof of His existence.

JF

sanvean

okay, you 'investigated' islam, but only within the framework of christian ideas (ie, language, culture, etc). How did you investigate islam, exactly? by reading the Qu'ran? Which translation? Did you attempt to learn Arabic (which is, as far as I'm concerned, extremely important to understanding the fundamentals of Islam).

As for what I believe Christians to believe, well I don't think that can be answered here. By Christians, are you speaking generally, or a discussion including the divisions within Christianity (you know, Ethiopian Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy, Russian Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Protestantism, Methodists, etc etc). Even a general answer as to what Christians believe is extremely hard. Ask me particular questions, and I will attempt to answer them (exams permitting, of course).


You didn't sound rude, by the way. Just genuinely curious.

McGinty

I don't believe that Christians have all the answers. For me I believe a marraige of both Science and Religion can provide answers to some of those big questions. No one can profess to know it all, all's anyone can say, is this is what I think / believe.

I feel this is where Christian churchs can fail people, the teachings of Jesus answer a lot, but I believe you have to come to your own conclusions. Religion is personal, religion shouldn't be second hand, which is what it is mostly at the moment.

For me and this is my own personal beliefs, I don't take the Bible literally, however there is a grain of truth in each of the stories. For example in Gensis it states that on the first day God created light and darkness, on the second day the sky and the seas. On the third day He created the land and vegatation, on the fourth day He created the sun and the moon to make seasons to help things grow, on the fifth day He made animals both on the land and the sea and on the sixth day He made man and woman. On the seventh he rested.

Okay now we know that the world was not created literally in seven days as science has taught us this, however, if you look at the big bang theory whereby gases explode, and the cause and effect from that and along with the whole evolutionary process, you will see that the creation of the earth is in the same order as in Genesis. Okay no mentions of dinasours, but how could the writer of Genesis possibly know the order of the creation of the world way back then without the scientific knowledge and equipment then?? Because I sure as hell don't know, but I have my guesses.

I believe in love your neighbour as you would love yourself, but I cannot see how two people who geniunely love and care for each other who have sex can hurt or harm God, be they straight or gay. Where is the harm?

Now I do believe that the sex act is abused and I wonder is this what God is asking us to do, to take care of our bodies and our love, to treat the act of love as it is, sacred. Does marriage make it sacred or what is in two peoples hearts. For me I believe it is what is in your heart. A man that rapes his wife, or a wife that uses sex as power over her husband, that is not a loving sexual act, that is power, revenge, abuse or control. Two people who don't beleive in the act of marriage, may live together and also treat each other with love and respect.

These are just some of my beliefs, and no offence to atheists or agnostics, but they can quite often have more christ like morals than some supposed 'christians'. Christianity is a way of life, seven days a week and its not an easy one. To say 'have faith in God' and to beleive and act in this way is not easy, its actually quite hard. These are just some of my thoughts but I have a lot to learn and a long way to go.

Manach

Absolute, from a personal perspective, which perhaps is not a great idea, still I can always rely on my Waugh like sense of cynicism.