Bike licence age to be raised to 18?

mike65

It seems the government has been inspired to make the roads safer for bikers by doing crazy things like making them wait 2 years before they can get a licence and get training before they take a test! Crazy or what?

Insurnace companies are threatening to stop insuring
motorcylists who have'nt passed a test and thats 75% of all bikers!

From the sindo

THE Government is planning to raise the motorcycling age limit from 16 to 18 and introduce compulsory training within months to curb spiralling deaths.

The radical move by Transport Minister Seamus Brennan follows growing concern at the numbers killed or seriously injured on motorbikes and mopeds - 20 already this year.

It also comes after a confidential ultimatum to the Government by insurers that they will stop covering any new inexperienced riders under-25 or provisional licence holders from July 1.

More than 70pc of the country's 47,000 motorcyclists are on provisional licences, have never done a driving test, had no training with many driving sometimes for over 20 years on lapsed provisional licences, it was also learned.
Radical recommendations have been accepted by the minister within the past week in the face of a motorcycle and moped death rate which is now the highest in Europe and three times that of the UK.

Mike.

Victor

Not sure about the details, but motorcycle deaths have increased at a time when most other categories were down (March and May to aside).

Kazujo

It's bout time they tightened up the laws really, there has to be some form of manditory training before someone can drive away fomr the shop like in the UK. steriotype but mopeds cause most of the trouble especially racing round the place carrying pillion passangers, which the majority cannot do legally anyway.

The best way to help the situation is with training nothing major but atleast some basic does dont's and things to look out for on the road.

I also think they should open the bus lanes, that alone should help to reduce the number of accidents

If the insurance companies stop taken provisional riders and new under 25's does that mean premiums will drop for the rest of us?

Young Sid

If the insurance companies stop taken provisional riders and new under 25's does that mean premiums will drop for the rest of us?

Will it f**k :mad:

Hibernian have a complete monopoly on the bike market & as long as they do they can charge what they like. It will not matter one whit what any minister says, they cannot be told what to charge. Free country, free market, they're in it to make money, you're in it to be bled dry. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Victor

Originally posted by Young Sid
Free country, free market, they're in it to make money, you're in it to be bled dry. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Actually no, prices orders could be introduced (like groceries), but are unlikely as government ministers make poor actuaries.

Young Sid

As soon as anyone attempt to cap the charges, they'll simply decide that the bike insurance business is not economically viable & pull out.

For whatever reason, sucessive governments have been unwilling to bring the insurance companies to heel (current situation with business insurance good example). Can't see the present lot being any different.

Silent Bob

Originally posted by Victor
Not sure about the details, but motorcycle deaths have increased at a time when most other categories were down (March and May to aside).

In a crash between anything and a motorbike the motorcyclist will come off worse, be it a tree, an armco barrier, a car etc.
If it was the case that motorcyclists were involved in more accidents that weren't their fault than that could explain the rise (as would them being involved in accidents that WERE their fault would do as well).

A motorbike isn't inherently dangerous but it does have to be driven correctly. It would be far better to introduce Compulsory Basic Training like in the UK and get people educated and trained to ride bikes than putting a two year moritorium on getting a provisional licence (9 year moritorium if the insurance companies go ahead with their plan).

I can't see it making that much difference to accidents involving motorbikes in the long term, granted there will be a period of 1 or 2 years when accidents are down because of fewer PTWs on the road but I imagine they will increase again just after that as lots of inexperienced PTW drivers take to the road again without basic training.

Anyway, aside from all that, isn't it the case that 16 year olds can't get a category A/A1 licence, they can only get the M (I have yet to come across a motorbike that fits in category M)?

seamus

Originally posted by Kazujo
It's bout time they tightened up the laws really, there has to be some form of manditory training before someone can drive away fomr the shop like in the UK. steriotype but mopeds cause most of the trouble especially racing round the place carrying pillion passangers, which the majority cannot do legally anyway.

The best way to help the situation is with training nothing major but atleast some basic does dont's and things to look out for on the road.

I also think they should open the bus lanes, that alone should help to reduce the number of accidents

If the insurance companies stop taken provisional riders and new under 25's does that mean premiums will drop for the rest of us?

75% of all accidents between bikes and other vehicles are not the fault of the bike (from Hibernian figures). Mandatory training of motorcyclists will only reduce the no. of collisions between bikes and stationary objects.
When I was learning to drive a car, and even in the test, watching out for motorcycles was only a minor part of it. Checking your mirrors is useless. I said it before - everyone should be forced to spend maybe six months on a moped or small bike before they're allowed get a provisional car licence.

I agree the laws need tightening. There should be strict penalties for prov. bikers (like meself) carrying pillion passengers. There needs to be some form of NCT for bikes (couriers drive some awful pieces of ****). And bus lanes need to be opened.

Once again the Government has come up with a completely unrelated task for cutting down road deaths. Age does very little when it comes to hopping on a bike for the first time. And cutting off insurance? I've been waiting for test notification for 4 months now....I hardly think it's my fault that I havent a full licence already.

There's also the blantantly obvious fact that the no. of motorcyclists on the road is rocketing. Obviously crashes/death are relatively going to increase. If tomorrow, only half of our car drivers decided to continue using their cars, would our Government celebrate the cutting in half of road deaths, despite the blind fact that the rate of crashes hadn't changed? I think so.

:rolleyes:

Robbo

I said it before - everyone should be forced to spend maybe six months on a moped or small bike before they're allowed get a provisional car licence.

A form of natural selection to reduce the numbers waiting for the test?

Bigalow

There are more accidents on bike in the last year because of the flood of them coming into the country mopeds can be bought for little or nothing and are looking more and more like a real motorbike so young fellas and young girls who are still in school with a part time job can afford then with H/P. These people are not mature enough to drive the mopeds on roads and show off to try and impress.
And now you have the insurance companies taking full advantage and putting put everyone's premium. We should all start off on a set premium and then if you have a crash or accident your premium goes up instead of being put into categories. Male / female 18 - 25 so on and so forth.

Victor

For motorcyclists, 45 (including 3 pillion passengers) were killed last year (12% of RTA deaths), so far this year it is 20 (17% of RTA deaths). If this rate continues, there will be 54 dead motorcyclists by the end of the year compared to 42 last year. Motorcyclist deaths are the only category of deaths to increase on last year.

By comparision cyclist deaths are running at one third of last year's rate.

Silent Bob

Originally posted by Victor
For motorcyclists, 45 (including 3 pillion passengers) were killed last year (12% of RTA deaths), so far this year it is 20 (17% of RTA deaths). If this rate continues, there will be 54 dead motorcyclists by the end of the year compared to 42 last year. Motorcyclist deaths are the only category of deaths to increase on last year.

By comparision cyclist deaths are running at one third of last year's rate.

Deaths/(number on roads) would allow for easier comparison between different road user groups. Any idea where I could find these?

rymus

now that I have my full bike license im going to be a langer and say... this is a good idea

anything that makes it a little harder for boy racers to get their hands on NSR's, NS's and those bloody annoying "half helmetted" crowd that seem to favour the XR8X is a welcome step

Its not like the driving test for a bike is hard or anything...

robertob

I said it before - everyone should be forced to spend maybe six months on a moped or small bike before they're allowed get a provisional car licence.

Forget training on mopeds and motorbikes. I remember when I was in primary school 20 years ago, the National Safety Council did a training course. Something like 2 hours after school for 4 or 5 weeks. Perhaps something like this could be covered in Transition Year. Not sure _what_ is done during transition year, but I know kids do go out on work experience. Road sense is another useful life skill.

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Robbo

I seem to remember there being some pilot scheme launched (probably in Dublin, natch) where transition years were given driver training. Seems to be quite popular in the states.

Victor

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Deaths/(number on roads) would allow for easier comparison between different road user groups. Any idea where I could find these?

Not sure what you are looking for exactly but look at this http://www.garda.ie/angarda/stats.html (up to date stats) and http://www.nra.ie/RoadSafety/ (click on the links for historical reports). There is a gap in statistics for last year (the 2001 report wasn't issued until October last year).

[I think I understand what you mean now] See the cordon count that Dublin City Council do every year, it would be indicative (I'll do some analysis and post something).

Victor

I don't have access to Excel at the moment, but motorcyclists represent maybe 5-7% of road users, but account for 17% of deaths this year (12% last year).

The "Report on 2002 Canal Cordon Traffic Counts" indicates 3% of traffic entering the city centre in the morning rush hour were motorcyclists. They account for 2% of traffic weight and perhaps 1.5% of all people entering the city centre (figures not available for people entering other then by road).

This may not be a completely fair representation as much motorcycle work is done during the day (couriers, etc.). However, no one can sat 17% of traffic is made up of motorcyclists, so their deaths are definitely disproportionate.

The vast majority of motorcycle deaths are males between 18-34. See http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/d706.PDF (section 3)

scrawnban

Its only a good thing

Silent Bob

Originally posted by Victor
This may not be a completely fair representation as much motorcycle work is done during the day (couriers, etc.). However, no one can sat 17% of traffic is made up of motorcyclists, so their deaths are definitely disproportionate.

The vast majority of motorcycle deaths are males between 18-34. See http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/d706.PDF (section 3)

That's the kind of thing I was looking for (I checked out those links, couldn't find figures on the total number of vehicles registered though, even Google failed me on this one)

I reckon the only accurate comparison that can be made is

(num motorbike deaths)/(num registered motorbikes) versus (num car deaths)/(num registered cars)

But from what you posted it does look disproportional.

Victor

Originally posted by Silent Bob
That's the kind of thing I was looking for (I checked out those links, couldn't find figures on the total number of vehicles registered though, even Google failed me on this one)

Look at http://www.cso.ie/principalstats/pristat8.html#motor - about 2.5% of vehicle sales are motorbikes. I understand there were about 1.68m in 2000 of all types of vehicle registered.

http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/d341.PDF
http://www.epa.ie/pubs/docs/End%20of%20Life%20Vehicles.pdf (Appendix A)

Perhaps 1% of people travel to work (this excludes two thirds of the population) by motorcycle.
http://www.cso.ie/northsouth/Transport%20and%20Tourism.pdf

Comparisons can be made based on the number of vehicle / passenger kilometres also.

Silent Bob

Thanks Victor,

I did see the CSO data, but figured it didn't really suit my purposes because they are sales figures of new/used vehicles only, it doesn't take into account the pre-existing fleet as such.

Back on to the topic of the insurers refusing to insure bikers under 25:

As Seamas said, 75% of accidents involving a bike and another vehicle aren't the motorcyclists fault (Hibernian's stats apparently!). So claims are only made against the motorcyclist in 25% of accidents.
Also, given that most people under 25 can't afford to buy fully comprehensive insurance (I would imagine it is this way with the kind of quotes I've been given) where is the loss for insurers to cover motorcyclists under 25?

It doesn't make any sense

Victor

Originally posted by Silent Bob
As Seamas said, 75% of accidents involving a bike and another vehicle aren't the motorcyclists fault (Hibernian's stats apparently!). So claims are only made against the motorcyclist in 25% of accidents. Also, given that most people under 25 can't afford to buy fully comprehensive insurance (I would imagine it is this way with the kind of quotes I've been given) where is the loss for insurers to cover motorcyclists under 25?

Maybe they are trying to discourage motorcyclists under 25 so they won't be hit.

It is the National Safety Council (packed with motor industry bods) policy to discourage children to cycle to school, because it is "too dangerous". :rolleyes:

Look at the big picture.