G8 summit Evian- the good bus

mazzyianne

Hello
We are a group of non-aligned activists organising a bus to the G8 summit in Evian - June 1st-3rd.
Many people who went to the summit in Genoa were not happy with the experience of travelling with Globalise Resistance who many beilieve to be a recruiting ground for the Socialist Workers Party.

if you are interested please send us an email to thegoodbus@yahoo.co.uk

We will also be having meetings for anyone who is in the Dublin area in Conways pub on Parnell St at 8 pm every Wednesday. There wont be any speakers or anything like that, just a pint and a chat. We want to encourage as much dialogue as possible to share our experiences and discuss method of protesting and talk about what we hope to achieve. Hope to see some of you there.

LFCFan

Originally posted by mazzyianne
what we hope to achieve.

I don't want to start a slagging match or anything but what exactly do you hope to achieve. All I've ever seen when it comes to these 'protests' is violence and destruction. What's wrong with Globalisation anyway? Would you rather live in a communist country or a country ruled by religious fanatics? We all live on the planet so there shouldn't be any borders. You're only Irish because you were born here. It wasn't a choice. Remember these are only my opinions.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by mazzyianne
Hello
We are a group of non-aligned activists organising a bus to the G8 summit in Evian - June 1st-3rd.

When you say "non-aligned activists", surely you mean "extreme-left-wing activists" or even: "so-left-wing-it'd-make-Stalin-jealous activists"?

mazzyianne

Globalisation is it stand certainly is not a positive force. I'm not saying I want to live in a communist country, coz I dont, I'm not even thinking about this country, this is about the whole world.

As it stands the richer countries are exploiting the poorer ones. Globalisation as it stands means that developing countries have to compete directly on a 'free trade' economy with rich countries like America (or Ireland). This means that inside their own countries small businesses can be ruined because giant multinationals can make products cheaper (as they produce on a larger scale)

Ok actually I'm not getting into a lecture on world economics right now. Check out www.z-mag,org if you are actually interested in this ****.

Non Aligned = not all belonging to any political party, various opinions, all welcome

mazzyianne

wow censorship, oops, didn't know that would happen, sorry

shotamoose

Originally posted by LFCFan
All I've ever seen when it comes to these 'protests' is violence and destruction.

You're only seeing what you want to see, then.

What's wrong with Globalisation anyway?

Plenty wrong, plenty right. Are you saying there's no room for improvement?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by shotamoose
You're only seeing what you want to see, then.

What’s been achieved? I mean really? Other than those peaceful activists (I don’t agree with them but I do respect their position) being lumped in with the thugs? And again, this time round all we see is another series of militant Muppets off to hurl some more rocks against ‘the man’, further alienate the mainstream electorate and do the gather support for those they oppose. Already we’re seeing sites that look like manuals in urban warfare spring up.

And what’s been achieved? Same thing a football hooligan achieves at a match.

shotamoose

The people who go to these protests to make their point peacefully and legitimately can't help who else turns up, and it's competely unfair to say that the actions of what is a very small minority (that's when there is any violence - when there isn't the media isn't interested and you tend not to hear about it) somehow undermines their right to protest or the validity of their views. If ordinary people stay at home because of the violent tendencies of thugs on either side of the law, violence will have won.

And what’s been achieved? Same thing a football hooligan achieves at a match.

Hold on. Who's at fault in your example, the football hooligan or the ordinary fan who goes to the match because he thinks it's worthwhile and refuses to let the possibility or even probability of violence deter him? The more ordinary people stay away the more the hooligan wins. And the more people 'lump in' the ordinary fan with the hooligan (as happened constantly during the 80s in Britain, for example The Sun's coverage of the Hillsborough disaster), the more the hooligan wins. Nobody's forcing you to 'lump in' the peaceful with the violent, in fact I can't see any rational reason why you would except that it's handy for you.

Perhaps one of the things these people are trying to achieve is to change this mindset that just sees one big violent lump of people.

And again, this time round all we see is another series of militant Muppets off to hurl some more rocks against ‘the man’, further alienate the mainstream electorate and do the gather support for those they oppose. Already we’re seeing sites that look like manuals in urban warfare spring up.

Sorry, but this really is selective vision. That site mostly lists self-defence methods, which seems a perfectly reasonable precaution given the potential risks. There's mention of some 'Black Bloc' element, but that is not 'all we see', nor has it been 'all we see' at any anti-capitalist protest you could care to mention. If that's all you can see, that's your problem.

LFCFan

Originally posted by shotamoose
You're only seeing what you want to see, then.

The fact that it happens at all means your system of protest is flawed. The Farmers can march on the Dail, the truck drivers can hold up traffic, same with the taxi drivers. Unions protest all the time but you never see any violence. Yet anytime you hear of violence and trouble is when there are G8 summits and anti-globalisation protesters.

Plenty wrong, plenty right. Are you saying there's no room for improvement?

Of course it can be improved. So can the health service in Ireland but I don't see you protesting for that. Nothing is perfect in this world and it never will. I think it's time for your type of organisation to start finding new ways to get your point across because all you're doing is alienating yourselves from the rest of us. I know the majority of you are peaceful but the fact remains that while the minority of thugs exist, your protests will fall on deaf ears.

shotamoose

Originally posted by LFCFan
I think it's time for your type of organisation to start finding new ways to get your point across because all you're doing is alienating yourselves from the rest of us.

What's my type of organisation, then? Seriously, since you claim to know so much about me based on what I've said about others, please, tell me more about myself. Unless you're just lumping me in with a large crowd of other people based on your own prejudices, you'll be able to come up with lots of interesting details.

Even if I shared every political principle held by mazzyianne, and I'd be surprised if I did, it doesn't follow that I would subscribe to her (bit of gender-assumption there) favoured methods of achieving them, or her to mine.

So while there's a massive diversity of principles in what other people like to call the anti-globalisation movement, there's a massive diversity of political practices too. Some I agree with, some I vehemently disagree with. I really don't see why this should have to be explained again and again.

On the slim chance that you're actually interested, here's a few examples of 'my type of organisation'. I'm a member of or subscriber to each one and I broadly agree with their critiques, proposals and political methods. Why not have a look and then come back and tell me more about where I'm going wrong?

Oxfam
World Development Movement
ActionAid
Jubilee Debt Coalition

LFCFan

Originally posted by shotamoose
What's my type of organisation, then?

Sorry, not trying to label you or anything. I'm just on about anti-globalisation people. Organisation was probably the wring word to use.

On the slim chance that you're actually interested,

I am interested and I've give what I can to charitable organisations I believe in. Travelling half way round the world to protest against world leaders is not, has not and probably never will make a difference. Not because of what you do but because of the houlligan element that seems to have ruined it for the rest of you.

Why not have a look and then come back and tell me more about where I'm going wrong?

I never said you were going wrong. What I said was something needs to change about how these protests take place because it's becoming obvious that the bad element is not going to go away and the rest of you are getting tarred with the same brush. I respect what you are trying to do.

shotamoose

Originally posted by LFCFan

I never said you were going wrong. What I said was something needs to change about how these protests take place because it's becoming obvious that the bad element is not going to go away and the rest of you are getting tarred with the same brush. I respect what you are trying to do.

Fine, but I think that if the ordinary peaceful protesters stopped going to G8, IMF or WTO meetings and protesting outside because of the actions of a violent minority, the winners would be (a) that violent minority and (b) the politicians inside the meetings who might be excused for thinking that nobody but a few violent anarchists gave a toss about the deals they cook up behind closed doors.

I seriously think that it is very important for people to make their voices heard at or around these meetings. These are meetings where powerful people come to make deals behind closed doors, deals that affect the lives of millions if not billions of people around the world. There is often very little democratic or parliamentary oversight of the process at the national level, as responsibility for these decisions has been 'devolved' upwards without being accompanied by the checks and balances we are used to at the national level. So I think it is completely legitimate for people to protest outside, and it would be a blow to free speech and to the idea of a public sphere if they chose to or were forced to stop doing so.

Shorty

Originally posted by LFCFan
The fact that it happens at all means your system of protest is flawed. The Farmers can march on the Dail, the truck drivers can hold up traffic, same with the taxi drivers. Unions protest all the time but you never see any violence. Yet anytime you hear of violence and trouble is when there are G8 summits and anti-globalisation protesters.

Ehm, what about all those Unions that have been present at most of the G8 summit protests?


I know it's too late now, but Berlusconi's Mousetrap was shown in NCAD on Tuesday.

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/wsm/ws/2002/73/moustrap.html

I would encourage people to go see this whenever it is on or is to be shown again. Within that film there is a statistic that of all the people at the G8 protest less than 1% made up the black bloc. It may appear that the black bloc made up a large part of the protests due to media coverage, but it/they didn't. If anything most of the violence occuring in Genoa was carried out by the police.

sceptre

Originally posted by LFCFan
What's wrong with Globalisation anyway? Would you rather live in a communist country or a country ruled by religious fanatics?

There should really be a corollary to Godwin's Law wrt bringing up any extreme & stating it's the only real alternative. I'm not taking either side (as I'm a little old to take part in a childish slagging match) but I'm going to assume that the people running the bus don't think economical and fiscal policy is a simple choice between a system of globalised capitalism and a system of shi'ite communists. Whether or not their position is correct, they're not wrong in thinking it's not just a matter of choosing between extremes.

If someone wants to have a debate about tariff-free trade with no entry barriers (which LFCFan referred to), wind up your watches and let's go. That is not the same thing as "globalisation" though (one is an almost purely economic argument, the other is as much a sociological argument as economic). I'm game at any time (I'll even take either side) but don't get the two confused as I don't want to start laughing half-way through after going to some effort.

mazzyianne

I think this is a pretty constructive argument to be having, I'm realised a while ago I can take either side of the 'anti-globalisation' debate. Anti-globalisation is a stupid name for it, it's about being against the negative aspects of economic globalisation.
I can also aruge myself into thinking third world debt shouldnt be cancelled:rolleyes:

But I know which side of each I actually believe.

I think going to the G8 is worthwhile. I find it really frustrating to realise that as much as we want to change things in the world, the people who are able to change things dont even realise what we want. We have no representation. Especially not worldwide. The reason that people get violent and angry at protests is because it is frustrating to realise that no one listens. I'm not saying I agree with the black bloc, I'm just saying I understand.

Shotamoose (gender assumption correct ) I'm sure we wouldn't agree on everything but it's good to know there are people supporting what we do and doing whatever they can to support the organisations they agree with.
People who go to protests should be supported. It is always assmed that we are all violent thugs which is rubbish. Very few people go to protests to cause trouble, mainly it is really about having as many people as possible to show people who have power in the world that we dont agree with the way they run things. Surely this is a worthwhile thing to do???

bonkey

Originally posted by mazzyianne
I think going to the G8 is worthwhile.

Just as a matter of interest....

If the millions of people across the face of the globe who protested against the invasion of Iraq was not sufficient to sway world leaders from their chosen path......exactly what do you expect to achieve with a comparatively tiny representation made to the same people in a similar manner?

jc

shotamoose

Originally posted by bonkey
If the millions of people across the face of the globe who protested against the invasion of Iraq was not sufficient to sway world leaders from their chosen path......exactly what do you expect to achieve with a comparatively tiny representation made to the same people in a similar manner?

While the protest at Evian may be 'comparatively tiny' compared to anti-war protests, it is just the latest in a long string of related protests on the same issues (who makes and enforces the rules of economic globalisation) which have involved millions of people across the face of the globe. [Edit: and that's just in the developing countries] Not as many, no, but still a huge amount.

I don't really want to get into the argument over whether anti-war protests had no effect (I believe they had some effect without actually halting the war), so I'll just say that the two issues represent completely different political challenges, and that there are examples from recent history (debt cancellation, GATS negotiations in the WTO) where campaigning and public opinion have had discernible effects on the policies of major economic powers.

Von

Originally posted by shotamoose
I don't really want to get into the argument over whether anti-war protests had no effect (I believe they had some effect without actually halting the war), so I'll just say that the two issues represent completely different political challenges, and that there are examples from recent history (debt cancellation, GATS negotiations in the WTO) where campaigning and public opinion have had discernible effects on the policies of major economic powers.

A day or two before the war started (interesting timing) the IMF published a report which concluded that that there was little evidence that globalization was helping the poor. Until now they've maintained that there was absolutely no question that their recommended policies would result in a rising tide that lifts all boats. In effect they were arguing that black was white and you can only do that so long before being found out.

Reuters article here and IMF report here.

I'd say there's been a lot more debate about all this stuff in mainstream media particularly over the last 18 months because of the street protests and the work of NGOs. The thing is, America's unilateralism has effectively ended the neoliberal project and is making it increasingly difficult for the WTO, IMF and G8 to function and institute reforms.

BattleBoar

Hmm...I log onto boards.ie to read SPAM?! I hope this doesn't become a trend.

BattleBoar

.

mazzyianne

how exactly is this spam?
You dont agree with an issue and therefore it's spam??
right, makes perfect sense.....:rolleyes:

mazzyianne

Originally posted by bonkey
Just as a matter of interest....

If the millions of people across the face of the globe who protested against the invasion of Iraq was not sufficient to sway world leaders from their chosen path......exactly what do you expect to achieve with a comparatively tiny representation made to the same people in a similar manner?

jc

I realise I'm coming across as idealistic. I guess I am, but i'm not naive. I was totally frustrated and pissed off after that huge anti war march in town, It was so cool that loads of people were there, and all around the world, but no one listened. I guess it's about knowing that people give a ****. I hate that mostly people dont give a **** about anything except themselves.
So it was good to see it happen.
But you're right, and it took a long time to figure out where i stood on the whole thing. I got forwarded this mail from the woman who pied Bertie about how protests just make people go home happy with themselves and change nothing, make things worse even coz u feel like you've achieved something. But I dont believe that. Not completely anyway.
I think everthing that people do makes a little difference, and if you can make a few more people think about the state of the world and how it can be improved, well that's a few more...
And more and more until...........
something changes. Everyon realises how cool the world could be to live in and they start doing things for themselves in every little way they can to change things.
And now im coming across as idealistic again:p

BattleBoar

Originally posted by mazzyianne
how exactly is this spam?
You dont agree with an issue and therefore it's spam??
right, makes perfect sense.....:rolleyes:

Spam - unsolicited message advertising a product, in this case, soliciting people to jointly pay money to hire a coach to attend a protest. Additionally, like email SPAM, your SPAM keeps coming back...over and over and over. How many good bus threads does this make now in the last week or two? Be gone, SPAMMER!

Sparks

Boar,
You have to actively seek out this thread you know...

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sparks
You have to actively seek out this thread you know...

Allow one person to Spam and within a few weeks I guarantee you will have to actively seek out the threads that are not Spam.

bonkey

The moderators will take your points under consideration.

We will also take under consideration the fact that not a single person who has an issue with this type of thread has bothered their ar5e clicking on the "report" link to complain about the post like they're supposed to.

If that still doesnt appease some of you, the consider this :

I already posted in one of the other "good bus" threads about these bordering on spam. I told the promoters that if they were willing to discuss the issues, it was fine, otherwise they had one post and the rest would be delieted. To date, they have shown themselves as being interested in any ensuing commentary.

IF moderating is needed, it will be done by Swiss, Gandalf, or myself. IF anyone else feels the need or the urge to start stepping into our shoes, please desist.

Now lets leave it at that, shall we? If anyone has an issue with this, then PM the mods. DO NOT continue this issue on this thread or any other similar one on politics.

Thank you.

jc

mazzyianne

Wow, some of you guys are pretty hostile, I wasn't expecting that....
Anyways, not to start any more **** but can I continue to post news about the good bus on this thread? I wont start any new ones. I only ever started the one.:(

News:
New stuff on the website today. www.geocities.com/thegoodbus
We're meeting up for a pint in Conways on parnell st. at 8 this Wednesday

If it's not ok to post this here just delete it
thanks

redflaremist

Rather than post this as a new subject, I've left it in here as a reply. Its an announcement for the fundraiser we're having this Thursday.

If I had more time on this computer I'd reply to some of the comments made about Evian, specifically those who asked whats wrong with 'globalisation'... just ask anyone from Argentina, Peru, Jamaica, or any other of the countless countries who have been destroyed by "free" trade... but its another days work and I am paying for every second of internet time!

Once I have a job with internet access... it will all be better.

Anyway, here's the spam. Even if you arent going to Evian I hope you can come along and support us.

s.o.u.r.c.e. this Thursday, May 22, downstairs @ The SPI Bar, Eden Quay

s.o.u.r.c.e. is a one-off night happening this Thursday, downstairs in the SPI Bar on Eden Quay (next to Freebird Records/Bus Stop newsagents, just at O'Connell Bridge).

Spinning the discs of varying diameters (fives, sevens, and twelves) for your aural pleasure on the night will be...

Clodagh
Decoy
Dr Groove
Dorothy Kelly
Herv
Jamie Farrell
Karen Eliot
Kate Butler
Krossphader
The Chillage Idiots
Willie

The night kicks off around the 8pm mark and goes on until 2am. Admission is a measly, pathetic, insignificant 2.50 euros, so you've no reason not to get your body down there.

Some information on the disc selectahs in case you've no idea who they is:

- Clodagh is the zine queen of 'Ideas is Matches', the promoter behind the now sadly defunct Club GZ in the Parnell Mooney, and the lead singer in politco punksters Easpa Measpa, whose debut LP is due out within the next month.

- Decoy is one of the boys behind the hugley popular monthly night 'Caribbean Disco Hell' in Grays of Newmarket, tracing a line between deep house and glitchy techno, also a regular on Jazz and Power FM.

- Dr Groove (and his partner in crime Krossphader) started out on Radioactive 101 'back in the day' and migrated later to 'The Sunday Service' on Power FM, which won an ie-dance award for best radio show. His recent choices at the Reclaim The Streets soundsystem typifies his set, which means you can only expect the unexpected.

- Dorothy Kelly is a friendly name and face from ie-dance around the city and beyond, no doubt her ardency for attending every club, gig, and festival under the sun has left her with a music taste that will appeal to many ears.

- Herv is the man with the plan, putting the electro back into electronica. His live sets around the city with the Neuromantek crew have a groove locked in for the feet, the head, and the ass all rolled into one dirty ball.

- Jamie Farrell is one of the always evolving punk/indie/pop quartet Estel, whose follow up to their debut 'Angelpie I think I ate your face' is due out soon (next week I think?), and hopefully will treat the crowd to some of these tracks, as well as many other gems from his huge collection.

- Karen Eliot is one of the people behind new kid on the block freesheet 'Red Flare Mist', spinning concious female hip hop and ultra minimal musique concrete techno.

- Kate Butler started out writing for the enormously successful online zine 'Muse', and now writes occasionally in the Culture section of a small English fanzine called 'The Sunday Times' (never heard of it). Her first love is deep and dirty techno but her taste branches out into countless genres from there.

- Krossphader is the other half of the 'axis of evil' (with Dr Groove), and now aligned to the pirate crew of Neuromantek. Also played on Radioactive and Power, and ran the 'X-Ray Specks' night in the Thomas House. His current amour is electro but his box contains a vast array of influences, from reggae to ska to dub to punk to hardcore to pop. Another crowd pleaser at Reclaim The Streets on Mayday.

- The Chillage Idiots is a twin headed hydra of Mick & Paul, playing on indie pirate Alice's Restaurant and then Xfm since the year dot. Their Sunday night show features the best in local and international electronica. Their DJ sets are delightfully unpredictable affairs, often starting with hushed ambience and degenerating into old style 808 madness.

- Willie is the brains behind the excellent long-running punk/skatercore fanzine 'Non-Plastique' and also one of the boys from the sadly disbanded group Bambi, whose records like 'Warning: May Contain Traces of Peanut' and incendary live shows turned Dublin venues into many a sweaty, shouty, adrenalised mess.

Thanks to all of these people for coming along and playing their favourite tunes on the night.

s.o.u.r.c.e. is a fundraiser for food and other expenses for "the Good Bus", which is a bunch of people from Ireland heading to Evian, France, for the anti G8 summit protests, which take place at the start of June. For more information on the Good Bus, check out http://www.geocities.com/thegoodbus For more info on whats happening in Evian, check out http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/agp/free/evian/index.htm


So that's this Thursday, May 22, at 8pm downstairs in the SPI Bar. See you then.

swiss

Originally posted by redflaremist:

s.o.u.r.c.e. this Thursday, May 22, downstairs @ The SPI Bar, Eden Quay

If all you wanted to do was announce your fundraiser, this was all you needed to say. I find it interesting that you didn't have time to reply to the comments some of our other posters have made, and yet manage to post a very long winded description of the various DJ's that are going to be at this event. Even if this was a copy and paste job, I would have rathered that you linked the information, rather than quoted it verbatim.

There is a fine line between disseminating information about events to boards members and spamming them. The last post fits into the latter category. Please, when posting like this in future try to include the information that you feel is relevant and if you must include the media hyperbole, provide a link to it if possible. This board is not for pimping fundraising events, no matter how worthy you think the cause might be.

redflaremist

OK thats cool, I will link to the information again in future.

Can you please direct me to an FAQ or posting policy (if one exists) for the politics board so I can stick by these.

Thanks

bonkey

That would be the sticked topic entitled "Politics Guidelines - Read before Posting", strangely enough.

jc