Publicans and them abusing their positions

Imposter

Originally posted by Trebor
"The managment have the right to refuse admission" above the door way and they can do anything, it is a privatly owned bar they can refuse who they like but they can't use "only 21's tonight lads" as the excuse. usually it's now "regulars only"

This is a quote from the "Drunkeness, violence and pub closing times" discussion but I think it merits a seperate discussion.

Is this allowed? IMO such pubs are suggesting that they are a 'club' but in almost all cases such places are 'public houses'.

I heard a more original one than the example above at Christmas. A group of us were going into a bar when we were asked for ID's. There was none of us under 23 (we were a mix of male and female and about 6 or 7 people) and the bouncer proceeded to ask us for Garda ID's. One person produced a Driving licence which was laughed at. We tried discussing this with the bouncer in question, suggesting that maybe only people under 20 might have Garda ID's but I don't think the poor fellow could understand what we were saying!

So again, is this attitude allowed, can the premises licence be revoked for acting like that or do people who want to enjoy themselves have to put up with this attitude from publicans who seem to be answerable to noone? Will a judge entertain these complaints at licence renewal time?

Another example is a very well known nightclub in the centre of Dublin who only lets people (or used to, not sure now) in, in groups of 4 or less! Things like wearing runners and tracksuits might also be relevant to this (but I agree with them in most cases :rolleyes:)!

Lemming

On the basis of age, pubs cannot block anyone over the age of 18 from entering. A club can, since clubs are by definition "by invitation". Nite-Clubs can. Pubs cannot, since they are not "clubs".

Blitzkrieger

Even though it's a public house, it's still someone's property, and they should have the right to refuse admission to anyone they like.


Of course discrimination is another issue, and most bouncers just want to be arseholes.

Sparks

Even though it's a public house, it's still someone's property

I don't think that works, since they've applied for a licence to be a public house...
However, from the publican's point of view, there has to be a way to prevent the guy that started the bar fight last week from showing up at the door claiming discrimination because he's barred...

Shinji

I really don't understand why this is such a major issue in Ireland and nowhere else - and it does all seem to be down to the attitude of the bouncers (and quite likely the attitude of the pub landlord, at that). My experiences with bouncers in the UK has been that they're uniformly polite, helpful and often even friendly - now, they're still big lads who you wouldn't want to start a row with, but as long as you're not out of line (and out of line means genuinely out of line - not wearing the wrong kind of clothes or being with too large a group) then hassle from bouncers is simply a non-issue.

That's not the case in Dublin, based on experiences nearly every time I've been back there since moving to England. There you've got a situation where there are so many punters and so few pubs that the publicans don't WANT your business, and don't care about annoying you - and that's very strongly relayed in the attitudes and behaviour of their bouncers.

Some pubs need to lose their licenses for the behaviour of the bouncers, beyond a doubt; and more importantly, a stack of new licenses need to be issued. The situation regarding bar licenses in Ireland now isn't very far away from what the situation with taxi plates was like a few years back - and the solution is exactly the same.

Samara

Regarding the Garda ID, I think that a full driver's license, (not a provisional) must also be accepted as proof of age so the bouncers were within their rights if it was only provisional licenses. I'm not 100% on this, but a lot of bars around have signs saying that legally only full driver's license and Garda ID will be accepted.

Orion

Originally posted by Samara
Regarding the Garda ID, I think that a full driver's license, (not a provisional) must also be accepted

Why should only a full license be issued. The Prov. license is issued by the same office as the full one so what's the difference as far as the pubs are concerned.

Or can someone with a prov. license go into a pub only as long as they are accompanied by a full license holder?

Lemming

Originally posted by Samara
Regarding the Garda ID, I think that a full driver's license, (not a provisional) must also be accepted as proof of age so the bouncers were within their rights if it was only provisional licenses. I'm not 100% on this, but a lot of bars around have signs saying that legally only full driver's license and Garda ID will be accepted.

Any state issued ID is legitimate as proof of ID. You have to prove you are who you claim to be in order to be issued with such ID.

Further, bouncers cannot specifically ask for passports. They can technically be done for that. Gardai can't even ask you for it. Only at points of entry to the country, or if applying to various government services/depts can you be asked specifically for it, and even then it's a case of "this OR that"

Imposter

In the example I mentioned it was a full driving licence. I also heard of another one at the same pub a few weeks before where a 25-year-old female (on her own, going in) was refused with a passport.

I thought that was funny as a passport would get you into most countries of the world but not a pub in Mullingar

Can anything be done about this? Who can people complain to or must they show up at the licence renewal hearing?

I think it would be great if people started standing up to this sh1t and not letting people in such positions walk all over people!

Lemming

there is also a problem that most places do not have their own security staff (Bruxelles stands to mind as an exception to this - and it shows at the door. Thus they rely on security 'agencies' to provide staff. These staff are difficult to track down because they are moved frequently, thus accountability is non-existent, and many door-men think they can do what they like because of this.

Victor

They are allowed refuse entry to anyone at any time without reason, however the must subsequently give the reason if requested.

If asked for ID, just laugh it off and say I haven't been asked for ID since I was 23 (or whatever).

Often the reason for these tests is to check if the person has been drinking.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Victor


If asked for ID, just laugh it off and say I haven't been asked for ID since I was 23 (or whatever).

At Ozzfest last year they were demanding ID off everyone who wanted a drink, there was a security guy at each lane to the bar checking. I did exactly as you say, his reponse was "you'll have to ask my supervisor...blah blah blah" so I said "fine, give him a call". When he realised I was serious he let me up, so to save hassle I went back to him every time. Was a nice bloke as well, had a grand wee chat with him when half-pi**ed towards the end of the day...

As for ID, am I wrong in thinking that a bar has the right to refuse you alcohol if they believe you to be under 18, even if you are over the age limit, but have no ID with you? If thats the case, can a bouncer use that as an excuse to refuse entry, i.e. you're too young for alcohol, so you're not getting in full stop. In fairness, that would take a lot of the hassle off the shoulders of the bar staff.

Victor

Originally posted by therecklessone
As for ID, am I wrong in thinking that a bar has the right to refuse you alcohol if they believe you to be under 18, even if you are over the age limit, but have no ID with you? If thats the case, can a bouncer use that as an excuse to refuse entry, i.e. you're too young for alcohol, so you're not getting in full stop. In fairness, that would take a lot of the hassle off the shoulders of the bar staff.

This is probably the case, as it is their legal obligation not to serve those under 18. However the belief / suspicion that you are under 18 should be genuinely held.

Talliesin

Wear black trousers (straight black skirt a bit below the knee is another possibility if you are female), plain white shirt with either a plain back tie, or unbuttoned at the collar (as if you had been wearing a bow-tie until recently, and have just taken it off).

Such attire will get you into a club 95% of the time. The other 5% say "aw come on, we've just closed up the bar and I only want a quick one before I head home".

I haven't actually bothered with clubs much since the days when I actually did work in a pub, but I never got refused entry when in my work clothes, so faking it should work.

Doodee

Originally posted by Imposter
This is a quote from the "Drunkeness, violence and pub closing times" discussion <Snip>

Another example is a very well known nightclub in the centre of Dublin who only lets people (or used to, not sure now) in, in groups of 4 or less! Things like wearing runners and tracksuits might also be relevant to this (but I agree with them in most cases :rolleyes:)!

having grown up, worked, and basically ran a pub for a few summers (running of the pub, not the living or working) Yes it is fair, and they are well within their right, you must realise that you would not want people in your own home, for whatever your reasons. If pubs were denied teh abilty to refuse people for their own reasons you could get anyone in there, and then you would be getting violence and uncontrollable behaviour within the premises.

If you get refused, then you should simple give custom elsewhere, as reguards the groups thing, well, you dont want stag groups in your pubs, simply cause they are loud, and can cause trouble, they are out to have fun yes, but tend to cause more trouble than they are worth, for example, on one occasion while working, a stag group trashed the upstairs of the Hotel, and then one of them decided to hang out from the window, on the third floor of a hotel, now had he fallen, he could sue us for not having enough security to prevent him from this, or because we didnt have bars on the window, or for whatever stupid reason he could think up.


also, to do with the difference between Dublin and London/England, the thing you must remember are the people, the fact is that the majority of irish ppl are ignorant, dont accept responsibility for their actions, and well, can be quite rude and often, are hassle, I've seen so many examples of this having worked in a pub, and I think that its for your own safety that certain people get refused. These are just my opinions on this, but i dont think that a pub should have its licence removed over something as meanial as refusing admission, any business can refuse you admission if they like, the only thing that pubs cant do is refuse via discrimination, and thats in the scenario that you are a Traveler or of some ethnic group.

also, on teh ID thing, if you get refused for having a d rivers licence or passport then you can simply find any garda to verify it, and they then cant refuse you, it may be a little bother but just remember that they do not want minors, and im sure that many of you tried getting a provvy off some 18yo or even your own and changing it when you were under age.

hmm, im ranting, it feels good.

seamus

Originally posted by Lemming
there is also a problem that most places do not have their own security staff (Bruxelles stands to mind as an exception to this - and it shows at the door. Thus they rely on security 'agencies' to provide staff. These staff are difficult to track down because they are moved frequently, thus accountability is non-existent, and many door-men think they can do what they like because of this.

I think Lemming has a good point here. It's certainly something I've noticed. Fibbers also has it's own bouncers (at least it did when I use to go there), and we never had any problems getting in. In fact, if a new bouncer appeared on the door, and refused us, he'd get a bollocking, such was our regularity at one point.

Doyle's however, across the road from Trinity, doesn't seem to have it's own staff. Some bouncers are there most of the time, but most are come and go. My gf and her mates practically live in the place, but some nights they'll all be stopped and asked for I.D., other nights, the bouncers will attempt to stop them cos they're not dressed properly (it's Doyle's ffs!). Every single time it happens, they complain to the barman, who promptly tells the bouncers to relax, but it keeps happening.

Contract bouncers can't separate troublemakers from regulars. The guy who glassed someone the week before may have no trouble getting in the next week with new bouncers. Kind of negates the points of having bouncers really.

I think it's just a strange phenomenon of Ireland. We have a huge amount of pubs per square mile in the capital, and yet they can refuse people from their doors and still have the crowd bulging out the windows come 11 o'clock.

As for the original question, pubs can refuse who they like. Just as a retailer can refuse to sell you goods, even though that's they're business. Free trade I think is the word for it (The freedom to choose who you wish to trade with?).

Imposter

Doodee,

Of course people want to keep known troublemakers out of their premises. I'm not dissagreeing with that. But if your reason is that the person does not have a 'Garda ID' and you ask for this knowing that this person is not going to have one then that is plain discrimation. The bouncer is in no way suggesting you are underage, is not suggesting that you are drunk, or a troublemaker but the only reason is that you don't have a Garda ID. As for getting a driving licence verified by a Guard, that's rubbish. If a bouncer doesn't know what the difference between a fake licence or not is, then it should be either a very good fake, which no guard stopped on the street could verify, or a very stupid bouncer!

WHY is this discrimination any different to refusing anyone from ANY minority group. In effect the bouncer is giving you no reason as to why you were refused.

As for stag parties, while they do have a very bad reputation (in some cases deserved), surely the bar/barstaff should be responsible enough to say that enough is enough when a group like this gets out of hand. If they're drunk don't let them in in the first place. If they get drunk in your bar, stop serving them, quite simple I think. If they cause trouble then call the guards!

As for your opinion of the irish Vs the english I think you're definitely generalising but there are English who act the same way, believe it or not (maybe go back to your stag party example).

Originally posted by seamus
As for the original question, pubs can refuse who they like. Just as a retailer can refuse to sell you goods, even though that's they're business. Free trade I think is the word for it (The freedom to choose who you wish to trade with?).

That's a fair point but i'm sure they must give a reason for it and be held accountable for this reason. Also they have a cosy situation where it's not really free trade in that they're all unionised and act a lot more like a monopoly than competing entities! <cough><cough> Licensing Laws <cough>

Victor

Oddly they want to ban camera phones (their excuse, no doubt: "Did you take a picture of my mot?" ?!?!?!?! :rolleyes:), but make CCTV compulsory. The concept of forming their own little database has obvious civil right implications, although does "troublesome activities of the Travelling community" mean claims under Equality legislation?

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/716444?view=Eircomnet

Violence 'putting pressure' on publicans
From:The Irish Independent
Monday, 12th May, 2003
Anita Guidera

PUBLICANS are under growing pressure, not just from increased legislation, but from an escalation of violence in the workplace, the Chief Executive of the Vintners' Federation of Ireland has claimed.

Speaking in advance of the organisation's annual general meeting which opens in Letterkenny tonight, CEO Tadg O'Sullivan claimed that there was not a single town in Ireland where a vintner had not experienced a serious incident of violence in the past seven or eight months.

"A lot of our members have family-run premises and they are seeking to protect themselves from a growing number of abusive and violent customers," he said.

This will be just one of the contentious issues to be discussed by over 300 delegates who will gather for the event tomorrow.

And despite a controversial motion from the Kildare branch which singles out travellers and calls on each county to establish a database "relating to the troublesome activities of the Travelling community," the CEO insists that the focus will not just be on Travellers.

"We are talking about troublesome and abusive and violent customers which are not confined to the Travelling community," he said. The Clare branch has proposed an amendment to the motion which would omit a specific reference to the Travelling community.

Among the proposals to be considered to step up their own security will be the installation of closed circuit television cameras in all public houses.

The three-day conference will hear that vintners are under pressure not just from mounting legislation but from spiralling insurance costs and personal injury claims. Vintners also want to outlaw the use of picture imaging mobile telephones in pubs.

According to Mr O'Sullivan, publicans were also being unfairly singled out for blame when it came to issues such as underage drinking. "The only person who is coming under pressure over this is the publican and this is not fair. We have been up front about such issues as identity cards for the past 15 years."

woosaysdan

maybe this might explain some peoples questions
http://www.justice.ie/802569B20047F907/vWeb/wpMJDE5D6FUFINTOXICATING LIQUOR ACT, 2000

Pep

why do they want to ban picture phones????

Victor

Originally posted by Pep
why do they want to ban picture phones????

Either "Did you take a picture of my mot? I'm gonna burst ya" or tamer versions of it or they don't want people monitoring them / bouncers / their staff who are being paid cash.

Imposter

w.r.t. picture phones, where does the law stand on this?

Can the publicans video us without our permission while demanding that we cannot reverse the action?
Does there have to be a sign stating that CCTV is in operation or how do the privacy laws work with this?

Also just read an article on the indo site saying that the government is about to introduce a compulsory ID card for anyone wishing to drink who is under 23 (or whatever age they decide on). It still doesn't deal with what if the publican refuses you if over 23 for having no ID!

Does anyone ever think that some government someday in Ireland might open up the licensing system and create a sensible system where people can sell alcohol provided they have a suitable premises etc.. , where restaurants can sell what they want and not be dictated to by the vintners federation and hopefully give todays publicans (well most of them) the two fingers for the way they treat their 'customers'!
Oh ye and if that ever happens I just hope that the greedy publicans gets stuck with the loan/whatever to pay for the licence they paid ridiculous money for, unlike the taxi drivers!

woosaysdan

i suspose people can claim that its an invasion of their privacy especially if little perves go around taking pics of people, they are already banned from places like gyms etc....

Victor

Originally posted by Imposter
w.r.t. picture phones, where does the law stand on this? Can the publicans video us without our permission while demanding that we cannot reverse the action? Does there have to be a sign stating that CCTV is in operation or how do the privacy laws work with this?

I suspect the law is fairly quiet on such matters, however if they have a sign saying "CCTV in use" then you have very little comeback (toilets or similar areas are another matter as you have a common law right to expect some privacy there).

Anyone can photograph anyone in a public area (pubs are "public houses"), subject to it not being a breach of the peace or if it infringes the subjects copyright (musician, model, etc.), however a publican is entitled (and obliged to) to have rules of behavior in place.

rubadub

"Yes it is fair, and they are well within their right, you must realise that you would not want people in your own home, for whatever your reasons."

-the law is not always fair. most people do not officially/legally open up their homes as a public house.

"and then one of them decided to hang out from the window, on the third floor of a hotel, now had he fallen, he could sue us for not having enough security to prevent him from this"

-and he should be able to sue. that is one reason why drink is so expensive, insurance for a bar owner must be massive, as for hotels etc, the real problem is the government refuses to but a cap on insurance claims.

"any business can refuse you admission if they like"
"pubs can refuse who they like. Just as a retailer can refuse to sell you goods, even though that's they're business. Free trade I think is the word for it (The freedom to choose who you wish to trade with?)."

-is this a fact? i thought as a PUBLIC house they had to accept the public or refuse with an acceptable reason, shops do not have to give a reason. most corner shops are a private business which is totally different. is that law still in place where a pub must serve you a glass of water for free?
a hospital is a business, are they allowed to refuse somebody in a car crash entry to their establishment because he is wearing runners? thats not meant to be rhetorical or sarcastic, can they really refuse you?

about time this ID came in. you dont have to have left the country or drive a car to get a drink anymore. they can still refuse you though by claiming its fake, are their laws against this?

best way to get in a pub if refused. ask the bouncer "is it because im a traveller?"

Victor

Originally posted by rubadub
is that law still in place where a pub must serve you a glass of water for free?

I'm not sure if there is a law to say they must serve you free water, but if you are served tap water they can't charge as the Constitution says the water is owned by the state.

Bard

Originally posted by rubadub
a hospital is a business, are they allowed to refuse somebody in a car crash entry to their establishment because he is wearing runners? thats not meant to be rhetorical or sarcastic, can they really refuse you?

Of course they can't. It's a bad example as, generally, hospitals are not privately owned businesses but are state-run public amenities open to all citizens of the state (as far as I'm aware).

Victor

Originally posted by Bard
Of course they can't. It's a bad example as, generally, hospitals are not privately owned businesses but are state-run public amenities open to all citizens of the state (as far as I'm aware).

Actually most hospitals are grant-aided charities (some are private companies) only some of the very big ones are owned by the health boards.

rubadub

Originally posted by Bard
Of course they can't. It's a bad example as, generally, hospitals are not privately owned businesses but are state-run public amenities open to all citizens of the state (as far as I'm aware).

why do you think they call them pubs and not "privs" as in short for "private house".

i thought a pub may well be a "public amenitie open to all citizens" and hence the name "public house"

Trebor

Originally posted by Victor
I'm not sure if there is a law to say they must serve you free water, but if you are served tap water they can't charge as the Constitution says the water is owned by the state.

no, but they could charge you for the glass and the ice

now on topic AFAIK

the license to sell drink is a public one and is given by the state BUT the pemisses is owned by a private idvidual so it would seem to me that they can stop you coming on to their land but can't refuse to serve you a drink if you can get to the bar & if you can prove you are old enough.

but i am just guessing there are laws for both the publican and the private owner so i am sure that you could hold it up in court for age's debating it

rubadub

there definitely is a law here or in the UK about glasses of water. some old law about passers by being entitled to it.

there are lots of odd laws in the licensing trade. one about nieces of the publican serving people

STaN

There are a few unresolved issues here:

Is a Pub, PUBLIC HOUSE by definition a place of the people where free access must be granted or denied with an acceptable reason? On the basis that you are over the age limit and in possession of state ID.

Can a Pub Owner refuse entry on other grounds such as tracksuits, runners, don't like the look of you? Based on that idead that he can refuse the right to his land.

This conflicts with the right to entry to a public house if you can prove your over the age limit. Even then i would lean more tho the right for entry if overage as the publican is buying a licence and im sure that this rescinds his personal land rights?

Clubs can refuse on the basis of dress code, amount of people in the group and not invited. This is on the basis that they are clubs and not Public houses.

Doodee

Originally posted by STaN
There are a few unresolved issues here:

Can a Pub Owner refuse entry on other grounds such as tracksuits, runners, don't like the look of you? Based on that idead that he can refuse the right to his land.

that depends, yes they can if they have a dress code implimented, or are part of a hotel that requires certain attire.

tbh, if u really wanted these issues answered then u'd be wise to wander into the citizens advice bureau and ask them, thats what they are there for.

STaN

Looks like new legislation being pushed through for october meaning all persons under the age of 21 must carry ID to gain entry to a pub. It must be a state ID. Passport, drivers licence (provisional or full), garda ID or any other state photo ID.

rubadub

it will be a criminal offence to have fake id too. and an offence to buy booze for underage drinkers. and more pubs will have closures if found breaking the law.

now are they going to do the same for cigarettes? there are laws in place but they are not enforced. or is it the old case of let the kids kill themselves quietly on smokes but not loudly on the (not so toxic) booze