Opportunism? Green Party.. Politicians or just opportunists?

lanky

HI,
Just wondering here, I always wonder why people vote for the green party?
The main areas they succeed are in areas, where people are resonably well off, like Malahide and dun laoghaire .....

I think the people in these areas vote for these opportunists is that they think they are being fashionable or trendy....
or else cant really see through the Likes of the Green Partys Opportunism, they are opposed to ANYTHING THEY WILL GET PUBLICITY FROM. or anything to oppose the Government from.

I usually see the same trend in people that vote for these thay are usually bitter type of people who moan about stuff, and they actually vote.
What Im afraid of is we will end up with a government with nobody standing up for what they believe in.. and let these bitter.... people elect a load of people like themselves, useless, moany people who look around at pthers and never do anything positve themselves.......


I think thats a trend coming into politics in Ireland.....
I see this Bitter USeless people who never really do anything with their lives getting popular cos they discovered how to use opportunism, to manipulate the public into thinking they the (greens etc..) stand for something.

Also Im not only hitting on the greens but the opportunism in general in Irish politics..... like look at Fine Gael, they are tuning the same look at their last few policies......

And im not focusing on the War issue, that is a tricky one and this is not a post on the war, but You know, Everyone jumped on that one........ and the war was not black and white look at how happy those peole were, when saddam was removed........

The RTE had a Journalist saying the only reason why they were happy was because they were (iraqi people) acting, he claimed they were celebrating peocause the peole were afraid of the US soldiers, (give me a break!)
These so called journalists with no objectivity, believing what they are told, and cant admit when they are wrong........ these journalists were shocked when they realised comical Ali, was lying the whole time,

No im not coming down on the journalists they keep the government on their toes....

We need more objectivity in our journalism, and maybe we will have less of these Opportunists......?

I really liked Brendan O’Carroll's piece in the sunday paer last week, anyone read it?

I dont know but IM tired of all this stupid naive left - wing stuff,

I wonder does anyone else agree or have any thoughts?
Im not the best at putting my thoughts into words....
but I would like to hear from others.....
and this is NOT a war discussion ok...?

peace out, bros

gandalf

Well I suppose the other way to look at it is that people want an alternative to the corrupt parties that are running the country but seem to losing touch with the electorate.

Reading between the lines in your post I would say you are a member of either Fianna Fail or the PD's. While I am not a member of the Greens I would actually agree with some of their policies and I have actually tried to read their manifesto (which is always hard work with any political party).

Maybe you can give actual examples of what policies of theirs you disagree with rather than fire up alot of opinionated heresay. Maybe you can point out with proper examples this "stupid naive left - wing stuff" something that alot of people on this board use as a label but almost never back it up.

Gandalf.

shotamoose

Originally posted by lanky
useless, moany people who look around at pthers and never do anything positve themselves.......

What do you think you're doing now? You're moaning about people who take the effort and time to go into politics and expose themselves to ridicule from you, me and anyone else who feels like taking a shot. Yeah, that's really positive.

Please, if you're going to slag off the Greens, criticise their policies rather than their very existence. In case it escaped your notice, they're an opposition party, so their function is to hold government policy and performance up to critical scrutiny. I'm sure most people, even Fianna Failers, would agree that this Government has provided no shortage of material.

Im not only hitting on the greens but the opportunism in general in Irish politics..... like look at Fine Gael, they are tuning the same look at their last few policies......

Yeah, the Greens, Fine Gael, what a bunch of shameless opportunists. Not Fianna Fail though, oh no. Once you're in Government you're actually getting things done while everyone else is just wasting time and so should bugger off. Yeah, that's it, we need a one-party political system. Brilliant.

I see this Bitter USeless people who never really do anything with their lives getting popular cos they discovered how to use opportunism, to manipulate the public into thinking they the (greens etc..) stand for something.

As far as I can see, the Greens are a party with fairly clear positions on a number of issues. That is, they clearly stand for something in these areas. I'm genuinely not sure what Fianna Fail stand for, apart from the priniciple that the continuation of Fianna Fail in power is a very good thing. Seriously, what are the basic principles which Fianna Fail will never compromise on?

Finally, I really hate this idea that politicians are not allowed be opportunist. Political activity in our society is defined by opportunism: the public generally have better things to be doing than thinking about politics, so anything (within reason) you can do to catch their attention and get them thinking about your party in a positive light is a good thing. Politicians, especially those in the opposition who don't have the benefits of the incumbents, need to take advantage of every opportunity to get their message across. The danger is they'll look desperate or needy, and of course there's always someone who'll call them every name in the book for even trying.

Von

Originally posted by lanky
I really liked Brendan O’Carroll's piece in the sunday paer last week, anyone read it?

This Brendan O'Carroll?



He's a former neighbour of mine. Talented man. No doubt about it. You can count on him to come up with some arse achingly funny willy gags but it doesn't necessarily mean that his brand of political philosophy is going to be all that insightful.

lanky

hahaha
sorry wrong guy I meant this one....

Brendan O'Connor





I'll repyl to the "you are a PD or a Fianna Failer" stuff when I get
a chance,
IM not,

so dont give me this:

"the corrupt parties that are running the country" stuff.

I think they are as ahonest as anyone in a position of Power is, Sure Fine Gael were dodgy too, you dont know how corrupt you could be untill you are tempted, and are in the position of Power, we are all muman and its human nature to take advantage of situations,

because one or two were a bit..... you can't paint tehm all with the same brush, anyway, if many were in a position where they could steer where an old Mobile phone licence went, they would want a few bob for it, thats human nature....

Is the guardai corrupt, because there is a few dodgies in the force.

also the bit I was saying about.
"useless, moany people who look around at pthers and never do anything positve themselves......."

was not about green party politicians it was meant in the context of the bitter people who are GREEN with envy and are duped into voting for them.......

I admire any politician, left or right who puts their money where their mouth is and goes full time....., for really not a great reward financially for a 24-7 job,

And yes Fine Gael fell ito the opportunist category by opposing the war in my opinion,

shotamoose::
"they're an opposition party, so their function is to hold government policy and performance up to critical scrutiny."

Yes very god you are right... but just opposing because you're in opposition, is very easy to do, as you are not made stand up for it afterwards,

I liked the position the conservatives held in the UK, supporting the labour gov. I thought that was a truely honourable thing to do.
They felt it was right to remove a regime, that was completly evil, and they backed Labour.
sometimes fire has to be fought with fire.....

then you have these anti-war people, saying murderers??
What did Saddam do for years?

I know war is not a nice thing innocent people get killed and injured, but you know i believe, that it must be done sometimes....


these anti-war demonstrators are naive, where will they be when terrorists finally get a nuke and drop it somewhere.
they'll be up a tree, or in a tent somewhere asleep.

Victor

Yes they are an opposition party, but they are also engaging in politics to a much better standard than many politicians. They have already abolished the dual mandate. It is they who have been pushing things regarding waste management, pollution and transport (would you leave it to a land owning, car dealer FF supporter?). Tehy are the ones who stopped governemtns from spending public money supprting referendums. They have policies that are published and longstanding and even engage in revising them in an open and honest manner http://www.greenparty.ie/Policy/default.htm Is that really objectionable?

Victor

Originally posted by lanky
The main areas they succeed are in areas, where people are resonably well off, like Malahide

How can you say this when no area by area figures were available in areas with electronic voting?

lanky

quote:

---

Originally posted by lanky
The main areas they succeed are in areas, where people are resonably well off, like Malahide

---

Victor::
How can you say this when no area by area figures were available in areas with electronic voting?[/1]

eh? its easy.......
In malahide, Trevor sargent elected to Dail
In Dun Laoire, Ciaran Cuffe elected to Dail.

It is well known that these areas have a high polulation of ABC1
well off, people.

thats where I got that from.......

I dont see any elected reps in disadvantaged areas really..... do you? I wonder why?

Lemming

Originally posted by lanky

I think they are as ahonest as anyone in a position of Power is.

You are going to stand there and defend a bunch of chancing f*ckwits? The same government who introduced data-rention on the sly and told every company to keep mum about it or else? The same government that wanted to retract the "open public scrutiny" of the FOI act because they were being held accountable by the very people they promised to represent? Then refusing to condemn a fairly senior party-politician (Liam Lawlor) for being utterly corrupt

Um .. yeah. Sure. As honest as anyone else .......

Sure Fine Gael were dodgy too, you dont know how corrupt you could be untill you are tempted,

Ah sure begora!!What a lovely day t'is !! The leprechauns are running free down by their pots o'gold.

Please! Corrupt is corrupt. If one person does it, it's alright for someone else then? Is that what you're saying? :rolleyes:

because one or two were a bit..... you can't paint tehm all with the same brush

Oddly enough in a court of law it's called "accessory to <insert crime of choice>". If they know about it, and turned a blind eye, they're as guilty. What's your position on teh Irish catholic church's senior members and all those cases of paedophilia I wonder? Same difference.

Is the guardai corrupt, because there is a few dodgies in the force.

A few are corrupt. There are no trustworthy checks or courses of recourse against the gardai? Hence the level of distrust at the moment. There's simply no way to really gauge how deep the corruption runs. During the May Day riots investigation, almost every officer questioned "couldn't recall who else was on the street with them" or was unable to identify co-workers from the same station as themselves. Something I find highly suspect. Again, "accessory to <insert crime of choice>" applies.

was not about green party politicians it was meant in the context of the bitter people who are GREEN with envy and are duped into voting for them.......

And what's the alternative? Vote for a government that has bjorked our economy, had members found corrupt in courts of law and shown an absolute disregard for it's electorate??

I admire any politician, left or right who puts their money where their mouth is and goes full time....., for really not a great reward financially for a 24-7 job,

You have to be sh*tting me if you believe that? They get paid a fortune, get sent around trhe world at OUR expense, get massive perks, funding, junkets, etc, etc. Get real :rolleyes:

And yes Fine Gael fell ito the opportunist category by opposing the war in my pinion,

Do as I say or else? Actually, a great deal many people did not want this war to happen. Some politicians decided to actually voice the wishes of their electorate. God forbid they represent them! :rolleyes:

these anti-war demonstrators are naive, where will they be when terrorists finally get a nuke and drop it somewhere.
they'll be up a tree, or in a tent somewhere asleep.

Ummm ... do you know what Nukes were designed to do in the first place? Kill civilians - destroy cities & economies. Name me a country that has used an atomic weapon in history and what type of "target" it was deployed on?

Victor

Originally posted by lanky
In malahide, Trevor sargent elected to Dail In Dun Laoire, Ciaran Cuffe elected to Dail. It is well known that these areas have a high polulation of ABC1 well off, people.

Yes they do have high ABC1 proportions, but not exclusively so. Trevor Sargent was elected in Dublin North which stretches from Balbriggan to Sutton to St. Margarets. Dun Laoghaire constituency includes fairly ordinary areas like Ballybrack, Sallynoggin and Dun Laoghaire town itself, not everyone in these areas will have two cars ouside their front door.

How do you explain John Gormley in Dublin SE (large numbers of 'ordinary' people, lowest home ownership figures in the country)?

Many ABC1 people will have more time to think about lifestyle and environment issues. But then the Green Party also appeals to poor hippy student types aswell. More importantly it is people who see the damage doen to the environment, this is easiest for urban people. The Green Party does best in urban and semi-urban areas.

Sparks

Lanky,
You may be right. Only way you'll ever know though is this.

Mind you, I think the Germans would disagree with you about green policies...

gandalf

Originally posted by lanky
hahaha
sorry wrong guy I meant this one....

Brendan O'Connor

It might be an idea to try and get your facts straight before posting next time eh :rolleyes:

I'll repyl to the "you are a PD or a Fianna Failer" stuff when I get
a chance,
IM not,

Just asked you a question in the form of a statement you answered it no need for anything else.

so dont give me this:

"the corrupt parties that are running the country" stuff.

I think they are as ahonest as anyone in a position of Power is, Sure Fine Gael were dodgy too, you dont know how corrupt you could be untill you are tempted, and are in the position of Power, we are all muman and its human nature to take advantage of situations,

because one or two were a bit..... you can't paint tehm all with the same brush, anyway, if many were in a position where they could steer where an old Mobile phone licence went, they would want a few bob for it, thats human nature....

Whatever based on your attitudes exhibited in your posts so far you have a leaning towards FF (now correct me if I'm wrong please) and as they have been proven by tribunials and investigative journalism to be the most corrupt political party in the state your excuse is thats because they have been in power the longest, hmm pretty lame defense there.

Is the guardai corrupt, because there is a few dodgies in the force.

As have been pointed out above there are serious issues with regards to accountability in the Gardai that are not being addressed. Pretty bad example to use tbh.

also the bit I was saying about.
"useless, moany people who look around at pthers and never do anything positve themselves......."

was not about green party politicians it was meant in the context of the bitter people who are GREEN with envy and are duped into voting for them.......

Well maybe you should have made that clear in your original post because you seemed to launch into a attack on the Green Party itself.

Now can you explain people who are "Green with envy"?

I admire any politician, left or right who puts their money where their mouth is and goes full time....., for really not a great reward financially for a 24-7 job,

As we all do but you cannot honestly be saying that most of the TD's in dail eireann even deserve a fraction of their take home pay for the lack lustre and shoddy service they are giving the electorate.

shotamoose::
"they're an opposition party, so their function is to hold government policy and performance up to critical scrutiny."

Yes very god you are right... but just opposing because you're in opposition, is very easy to do, as you are not made stand up for it afterwards,

I liked the position the conservatives held in the UK, supporting the labour gov. I thought that was a truely honourable thing to do.
They felt it was right to remove a regime, that was completly evil, and they backed Labour.
sometimes fire has to be fought with fire.....

then you have these anti-war people, saying murderers??
What did Saddam do for years?

I know war is not a nice thing innocent people get killed and injured, but you know i believe, that it must be done sometimes....


these anti-war demonstrators are naive, where will they be when terrorists finally get a nuke and drop it somewhere.
they'll be up a tree, or in a tent somewhere asleep.

Ah I think we're coming closer to your actual problem. This post is actually about the anti-war stances that the GReens and others took up but wait no you said earlier

And im not focusing on the War issue

But now it appears you are. If you ask me it appears your actually confused on what exactly your position is !

Oh and I'm still waiting for you to highlight what Green Party policies you have problems with or is that no longer a issue for you.

Gandalf.

shotamoose

Originally posted by lanky
I think they are as ahonest as anyone in a position of Power is, Sure Fine Gael were dodgy too, you dont know how corrupt you could be untill you are tempted, and are in the position of Power, we are all muman and its human nature to take advantage of situations

Which is why we have rules outlawing bad behaviour so that we can all get along and society works. When people break those rules I have no problem whatsoever calling them up for it. Perhaps you'd prefer people to get away with it a bit more? And why stop with corruption, sure we all drive a bit fast it's only human nature, sure we all want to kill people every so often ...

Bollocks. Liam Lawlor and Ray Burke were corrupt. Which brings me on to my next point.

because one or two were a bit..... you can't paint tehm all with the same brush

Yes you can, that's the whole point of political parties - politicians gathered together under a single banner, signing up to the same principles etc. Lawlor and Burke were perfectly happy to ride off the back of the party's popularity, and the party was perfectly happy to have them as long as they were 'getting things done'. So yes, the sins of individuals do come back to haunt the party, and justifiably so.

anyway, if many were in a position where they could steer where an old Mobile phone licence went, they would want a few bob for it, thats human nature....

Oh wait, you're just trolling after all. That's a relief

these anti-war demonstrators are naive, where will they be when terrorists finally get a nuke and drop it somewhere.
they'll be up a tree, or in a tent somewhere asleep.

Wow, you can read me like a book. Yeah, I'll be thinking of you when the bombs drop and I'm safe in my tree, eating moss and reciting Kapital. Where will you be?

Biffa Bacon

I actually gave the Greens a third preference once, after the Fianna Fáilers. But after their opposition to Nice and the war in Iraq they can forget it. They're only one spot above Sinn Féin now in my estimation.

Victor

Can someone remind me of all the Green Party TDs and Councillors being investigated for corruption?

Sparks

Biffa,
They've lost the vote of a rather rabidly right-wing american?
They must be devestated.

Victor

Originally posted by Victor
Can someone remind me of all the Green Party TDs and Councillors being investigated for corruption?

I wonder what this is about.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0501/flood.html

Lydon to quit two jobs for Seanad from July
May 1, 2003

(17:20) Fianna Fáil Senator Don Lydon has told the Flood Tribunal he will quit his council seat and his job as a psychologist in St John of God's hospital. Senator Lydon said he will concentrate on his Seanad post, and will give up his other two jobs from July next.

Earlier, he said he was stupid to try to grab a cheque from a Green Party councillor at a council meeting. Senator Lydon was being questioned about a Dublin County Council meeting ten years ago during which Green Party TD, Trevor Sargent, produced a cheque from a developer.

He denied that he had grabbed Deputy Sargent around the neck, but said he had grabbed him from behind to try to see who the cheque was from. Senator Lydon said he was annoyed that Mr Sargent would not show them the cheque and did it out of 'devilment'.

vasch_ro

The reason people vote for the Green Party is in one way the same reason that people vote for Sinn Fein and that reason is that they provide a clear alternative from the other political parties in the country it is as simple as that .
Over time Fine Gael / Fiann Fail and even to a degree labour have almost blended into one homogenous entity. There are cosmetic differneces I will grant you that but no real differences.

That story about Don Lydon and Trevor Sargent refers to a time when Trevor Sargent was trying uncover why exactly he had received a cheque from a developer and allegedly Mr Lydon totally over reacted abd tried to grab the said check off him to keep things quiet, Mr Sargent had to be escorted from the meeting for his own safety.

Lastly to reassure those of you who have lost faith in our national Police Force if that is at all possible,
Police men in Ireland are subject to a couple of a different checks
they are subject to internal discipline, criminal prosecution and indeed civil prosecution, and tribunal inquiry
7 policemen are going through the court system at the moment in relation to May day 2002 but this is a digression.

People vote Green because they are different, I voted for TD Cuffe so as not to vote for the established parties

Cork

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
I actually gave the Greens a third preference once, after the Fianna Fáilers. But after their opposition to Nice and the war in Iraq they can forget it. They're only one spot above Sinn Féin now in my estimation.

I gave the Greens a pretty high preferance too. I like their ideas on public transportantion & recycling.

But on taxation, Northern Ireland or the economy - there would be better options.

I lost all hope in the Greens during the NICE vote when I think a German Green had an open arguement with an Irish Green over the treaty. They were from the same organisation and could not have a uniformed view on a treaty.

Trevor Sargent should have handled the damage to the planes in Shannon questions better in the Dail.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
I lost all hope in the Greens during the NICE vote when I think a German Green had an open arguement with an Irish Green over the treaty. They were from the same organisation and could not have a uniformed view on a treaty.

They are not "from the same organisation", they are from similar organisations. Would you hold the Irish Labour Party responsible for Tony Blair's actions?

Cork

Originally posted by Victor
They are not "from the same organisation", they are from similar organisations. Would you hold the Irish Labour Party responsible for Tony Blair's actions?

No.

But I am under the impression that there is a pretty large green grouping in the EU parliament.

I tought that as a movement they would have similar policies with regards to things like the NICE treaty.

That a large grouping within the EU parliament would come to a view on this treaty.

A public debate in the Irish Media between "Greens" added to public confusion in the run up to the NICE vote.

Sparks

So what?
Fine Gael ministers publicly differed by 180 degrees on shannon.
Fianna Fail people had similar differences, but they weren't so public.

Duffman

Originally posted by lanky
I think the people in these areas vote for these opportunists is that they think they are being fashionable or trendy....
or else cant really see through the Likes of the Green Partys Opportunism, they are opposed to ANYTHING THEY WILL GET PUBLICITY FROM. or anything to oppose the Government from.

Opportunists? To quote a Fianna Fáil candidate in Dublin South East during the general election: "You see, the thing about Fianna Fáil is, well, it's a party without an ideology..."

Hrm... great at winning votes he was.... :P

Regardless of your opinion about them, the Green Party have a strong set of core values and beliefs, beliefs shared by genuine and hard-working TDs... And I'd much rather have those "opportunists" in power than the opportunists of FF...

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
But I am under the impression that there is a pretty large green grouping in the EU parliament.

I tought that as a movement they would have similar policies with regards to things like the NICE treaty.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from there. I get the impression that the Green grouping in the EU parliament is pretty much the same as the other groupings that the other Irish parties are members of - more a general group of reasonably like-minded individuals who like to sit next to each other than an actual party. The difference is, of course, that all the members of the Green grouping in the EU parliament represent parties with the same name in their respective countries. I wouldn't see this as much of a problem (after all, it's the same as the CD or socialist groupings) but it may be a little confusing.

WRT the arguing or discussing in public about which direction the party should take, I have to confess that posting on & reading the IOFFL forum for two years has given me a liking for dirty washing being exposed in public in a limited way - I like any openness that comes from a public discussion rather than some furtive arguing behind closed doors. That's just a personal preference though, but it's unlikely to be one I'll be abandoning.
(obviously IOFFL isn't a political party but the point is the same)

Elmo

The reason I vote Green and for that matter Sinn Fein, Labour and Independent is because I want something other then FF and FG and I am soooooooooooooooooooo not a friend of the PD's as they are only in government because of "Opportunism".

Elmo

But I am under the impression that there is a pretty large green grouping in the EU parliament.

I tought that as a movement they would have similar policies with regards to things like the NICE treaty. .

Love when people just remember this, what about SIPTU (One of the Unions anyway). Who when out and told people to vote YES and yet when they took a vote on which way the Union should ask the people to vote their member told them Vote NO. Thus why cann't the greens be different they are after all the Green party of Ireland. You know that FG is part of the largest party in Europe

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So is Dana