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University in Waterford

  • 24-04-2003 9:07am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,272 merlante


    Given that Waterford is the only city without a university, it's got the biggest IT outside of Dublin, it's one of the major gateways in the national spatial strategy and the fact that there is no university in the south east, do people think that Waterford will get a commitment for the establishment of a university (upgrade of WIT?) within the next 10 years?

    merlante


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭ s8n


    I'd say it'll happen sooner than 10 years.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭ ToxicPaddy


    [rant start/]

    a few reasons that it probably wont..

    1: The majority of lecturers in a Uni have to have a Phd or masters.. and since very few of the lecturers seem to have this, Ive been told this so dont quote me on it, I doubt very much that they will give up their jobs just so waterford can have a Uni.

    2: Politics in waterford has for many years held the development of the city back in its development. Its the same people saying the same things and not doing anything in anyway to help waterford develop the way it should unless there is something in it for them. Its their small mindedness and greed that has waterford the way it is..

    3: Government excuses, changing WIT to a uni will require more funding and more courses, rapid expansion and all in all something the government doesnt want to do is give more money out. They would rather p*ss away €60million on a new jet to swan off around the world than look after health and edcuation in the country...

    Thats just a few reasons and there are probably hundreds more..

    I love waterford, cant wait to get back home to live and work there, but there are some people and ways there that just annoy the crap outta me...

    [/rant over]


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 merlante


    1: The majority of lecturers in a Uni have to have a Phd or masters.. and since very few of the lecturers seem to have this, Ive been told this so dont quote me on it, I
    doubt very much that they will give up their jobs just so waterford can have a Uni.

    I don't think that they will have a choice either way. And anyway, there's no reason why they can't continue diploma and cert courses for a while and/or move them to another IT in Carlow or wherever, providing the same amount of employment.
    2: Politics in waterford has for many years held the development of the city back in its development. Its the same people saying the same things and not doing
    anything in anyway to help waterford develop the way it should unless there is something in it for them. Its their small mindedness and greed that has waterford the
    way it is..

    I think this is changing. The crap TDs are on the way out, the city council seem to be on the right track and we currently have a senior minister fighting the corner, in Martin Cullen. Politically things probably haven't been better since prior to the formation of the state.

    3: Government excuses, changing WIT to a uni will require more funding and more courses, rapid expansion and all in all something the government doesnt want to do
    is give more money out. They would rather p*ss away ?60million on a new jet to swan off around the world than look after health and edcuation in the country...

    Every place in Ireland face these problems, but the fact is that plenty of things were built when Ireland was a hell of a lot poorer when sufficient pressure was brought to bear.

    There are at least grounds for optimism imo.

    merlante


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭ ToxicPaddy


    maybe a hint of optimism might be called for..

    but you cant blame me for my current views... in fairness, there have been many an issue in past thats been brushed aside and swept under the carpet so to speak..

    its only now that the public is becoming less and less patient with politicians and less likely to be swayed with empty promises and the politicans are starting to actually do something while in office instead of sitting on their fat arses and enjoy the benefits while racking up huge expenses...


  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ Lawnkiller


    In all fairness - Martin Cullen tends to be a "Yes Bertie, No Bertie, 3 Bags Full Bertie" type of politician. He's not really fighting for Waterford but rather for the 'greater good' of the party, which has usually left Waterford out in the cold. And as for the city council, we don't get me started...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 merlante


    In all fairness - Martin Cullen tends to be a "Yes Bertie, No Bertie, 3 Bags Full Bertie" type of politician. He's not really fighting for Waterford but rather for the 'greater good' of the party, which has usually left Waterford out in the cold. And as for the city council, we don't get me started...

    For a start Cullen is only starting to gain the sort of clout, independant of Bertie, who for whatever reason took a shine to him, that he needs to make real changes. And being seen as a national politician is how you are taken seriously.

    Secondly he has gotten a **** load for Waterford. It is a fact that the airport would not exist now if it wasn't for his intervention, nor would the air/sea rescue service - was about to be relocated to Cork!. This year Waterford got the a larger allocation for roads than Cork, and many times that of the other cities. It was much needed, but wouldn't have happened without Cullen. Waterford port just got 4.8 million, the first bit of real funding in a long, long time - maybe it was a coincidence... The only reason we are talking about names for a second bridge is because of Cullen. If he wasn't in the OPW last time around, the north keys project would not exist and if he wasn't a minister now, it would probably disappear into the night. The dublin motorway would be much further down the list if it wasn't for him and we probably wouldn't have had the F1 power boat race in Waterford last time either.

    When all the environment ministers of the enlarged EU meet for the first time in a few months, they'll meet in Waterford. The national spatial strategy was announced in Waterford. This sort of exposure is priceless, for a city that seems to have an unnaturally low profile.

    I'm not particularly a fan of Cullen, but these are the simple facts of the matter. Waterford people are the only people in the country - without exception - that don't seem to know the value of having a cabinet minister in the constituency.

    merlante


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,981 ✭✭✭✭ mike65


    I've been watching the campaign to get university status
    for Waterford sooooooooo long I tend to be pessimistic.
    But that said 5 years ago I was seriously doubting the bypass second crossing would ever get the green light and it has...I guess we need Cullen to get bumped over to education!

    Mike.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭ Elmo


    Given that Waterford is the only city without a university

    What about Kilkenny?

    I some how don't see it happening very soon


    And It's a case of Well you don't have this well then you cann't have that and since you don't have that we cann't provide you with this. I love red tape.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 merlante


    I've been watching the campaign to get university status for Waterford sooooooooo long I tend to be pessimistic.

    Well there was no political power until now, and Waterford lacked the single-mindedness required. In the papers yesterday it was announced that Cullen got 35,000 in personal donations which was by far the largest sum received by any TD - it was actually twice what the next highest sum donated to a TD was. The engineering and construction companies in Waterford that donated the cash have finally realised how we've been shafted all these years, and figured out how to redress the problem.

    Politics in this country is so corrupt that you have to work like a demon to get your guy into cabinet just to keep in the game. No minister from Cork or Galway is going to establish a university in Waterford, unless there's a Waterford minister building roads in Cork or Galway for them.

    I don't believe in fairness in irish politics, but I do believe in political clout which is why I get pissed off when I hear people dissing Cullen. What we don't need is another "quiet fella" in the dail that pleases everyone!

    merlante


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 merlante


    Given that Waterford is the only city without a university
    What about Kilkenny?

    As much as I am loath to get into an argument on city status, Kilkenny isin't a city, at least not according to the local government act 2001, http://www.environ.ie/local/overview.html#6. Kilkenny also has a considerably lower population than the other cities (some of which stretch the definition themselves) and realistically has no chance of securing key pieces of infrastructure such as a university.

    Like it or not, there will never be a university in Wexford or Kilkenny or Clonmel or Carlow; the only chance the region has of getting anything big is if the proposal is to stick it in Waterford.

    merlante


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  • Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭ PhilipMarlowe


    There are 5 major cities...
    http://www.kilkenny.ie/peop/localgov1.html

    I think the situation with regard to a university is similar in ways to Industry in general in the South East.
    Whereas regions like the BMW region have a combined strategy to enhance and entice, the South East counties/towns/cities always seem to be in competition with each other.

    If you could have say, IDA(SE) or something, you could have real clout in competing for investment into the area.
    And lets face it - if/when the new road gets built, a lot of these towns are only going to be +/- 1 hour apart.

    The same for a uni. Once Waterford has one, the SE will benefit. Besides, I'm sure that there would still be plenty of outreach stuff in the surrounding areas...

    Mark.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,981 ✭✭✭✭ mike65


    Originally posted by Licksy20
    There are 5 major cities...
    http://www.kilkenny.ie/peop/localgov1.html

    I think the situation with regard to a university is similar in ways to Industry in general in the South East.
    Whereas regions like the BMW region have a combined strategy to enhance and entice, the South East counties/towns/cities always seem to be in competition with each other.

    If you could have say, IDA(SE) or something, you could have real clout in competing for investment into the area.
    And lets face it - if/when the new road gets built, a lot of these towns are only going to be +/- 1 hour apart.

    The same for a uni. Once Waterford has one, the SE will benefit. Besides, I'm sure that there would still be plenty of outreach stuff in the surrounding areas...

    Mark.

    So true, the South East is too well catered for when it comes to towns and cities of a decent size. Look at any other region and it won't have as many population centres over 15,000 so close to one-another. This should be a strength but such is the carping competition, esp between Waterford and Kilkenny (the airport should here, no it should here! etc) we undermine our collective selves.

    Maybe its time to create a super-county! :D

    Mike.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭ Elmo


    Maybe its time to create a super-county!

    With the way Killkenny people kick up a fuss about the waterford city boundary, a super county is unlikely.


  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ Lawnkiller


    first off, i'm flattered that you took my 'mini-rant' so seriously :)

    <next rant - kinda longer>
    The engineering and construction companies in Waterford that donated the cash have finally realised how we've been shafted all these years, and figured out how to redress the problem.

    A quick look at the list of donations reveals how the property ppl of Waterford have been anything but shafted over the years.

    We have been taking names for a second river crossing now for a couple of hundred years now.

    Maybe it is Cullen's turn in the party line now - which IS nice for a change, but
    What we don't need is another "quiet fella" in the dail that pleases everyone!
    which is what Cullen has been up to now(its nice to get exposure, but i'd rather get a better hospital or school for the money)...

    and from your extensive knowledge, merlante, I'd guess you might be a fan of Cullen, or at least fairly close to the "political pulse" in the south-east.

    Meanwhile, back on topic:
    I'd rather get everything working properly in the current college before upgrading to a uni. I'm sure there are a couple of ppl who might agree with me on that...

    p.s. the airport is in the worng place and the road out to it is crap, oh yeah - and they need new everything to simply sustain it...

    <end rant>


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 merlante


    A quick look at the list of donations reveals how the property ppl of Waterford have been anything but shafted over the years.

    The construction companies themselves have obviously done well, but the city in general has performed poorly. There has to be a point where you get pissed off going to other cities and seeing ring roads, bypasses and bridges all over the place and a university as well as an IT. They've put their money where their mouth is.
    We have been taking names for a second river crossing now for a couple of hundred years now.

    Well I don't remember the last time John Bruton was on WLR arguing about it!
    which is what Cullen has been up to now(its nice to get exposure, but i'd rather get a better hospital or school for the money)...

    It looks as though the things I mentioned will come through, but for the cynical, time will tell. He allocated a **** load for roads; he's not the minister for health or education after all!
    and from your extensive knowledge, merlante, I'd guess you might be a fan of Cullen, or at least fairly close to the "political pulse" in the south-east.

    I'm completely ambivalent about Cullen the man. I can't believe I have to argue the benefits of having a cabinet minister in the constituency. I suppose you think I'm FF for 4 generations? All that's important is getting someone - anyone - in to the cabinet so we have a chance of catching up with the galways and limericks of this world.
    I'd rather get everything working properly in the current college before upgrading to a uni. I'm sure there are a couple of ppl who might agree with me on that...

    I've seen DCU grow from a small college to a large university, with a national theatre on the campus! I'm sure limerick is the same, maynooth is about the size of WIT. It will pass it in size within the next few years. In any university I've had anything to do with, things weren't done properly, some courses were a joke, etc. The point is that if you get university status you get *far* greater funding, you get to pay your staff whatever you want - so you can hire the best. You can set up arts courses - YOU CAN'T DO AN ARTS COURSE IN THE SOUTH EAST! If you're intel, are you going to set up in a city with a university, or one with an IT? (considering there are ITs in every backwater in the country) ITs can't create their own degrees, I don't even think they can award their own degrees! (or did that change)

    If the IT doesn't get upgraded, Waterford is dead in the water - that's it, 1000 years of history down the drain - it'll soon enough be known as Waterford town; you know the place that's a bit bigger than carlow? The time for half measures is gone.

    merlante


  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ Lawnkiller


    Eh - this is turning into a quote-a-thon so i shall back down.

    Alas sir merlante, thou hast me beaten.

    So - in summary:
    • You want a university in Waterford
    • You are happy with the government(or at least the way they are treating some elements of Waterford at present)
    • You want arts courses...

    Call me pesimisitic but... :rolleyes: "its all going to happen like that"

    enter victory dance below:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭ jd


    Originally posted by merlante
    if it wasn't for him and we probably wouldn't have had the F1 power boat race in Waterford last time either.

    I couldn't help laughing when I read this bit, sorry...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 merlante


    You want a university in Waterford
    You are happy with the government(or at least the way they are treating some elements of Waterford at present)
    You want arts courses...

    Well I have to quote or nobody will know what I'm talking about. :)

    Yes to the first point.

    I am happier with a government with a Waterford minister in it, than with the same government without a Waterford minister. I would be happy enough with a FG government with John Deasy in it.

    Although I'm an engineer myself, I'm sure, out of the 400,000 - 450,000 people in the south east there are people who would like to study, say history or english or whatever!

    merlante


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 merlante


    Originally posted by merlante
    if it wasn't for him and we probably wouldn't have had the F1 power boat race in Waterford last time either.
    I couldn't help laughing when I read this bit, sorry...

    The point is that little things like this come your way a lot more often with a minister around. The power boat race added a few million to the local economy.

    merlante


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 9,243 Mod ✭✭✭✭ BossArky


    apparently Clonmel is getting a University in 2006

    www.geocities.com/marcus_flanagan

    check it out above.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ Lawnkiller


    Alert!

    Pimpage Detected!!!


    :ninja:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,981 ✭✭✭✭ mike65


    This from Waterford Today-
    Funded by Atlantic Philanthropies and commissioned by Dublin Institute of Technology, the report was produced by Prof Malcolm Skilbeck, a former deputy head of education with the OECD who has been responsible for a series of landmark reports on higher education in Ireland and elsewhere.

    Prof Skilbeck writes of how the two additional universities (in Waterford and Dublin) would introduce a new kind of university, thereby challenging traditional assumptions about the nature of a university education. Commenting on Prof Skilbeck’s findings, Prof Byrne said, “The higher education sector is currently the focus of considerable comment and attention. This latest contribution to that timely debate comes from someone who has contributed hugely to the evolution of higher education planning in Ireland and in several other countries and regions.

    Prof Skilbeck has provided several key inputs and helped shape educational thinking in Ireland. In this report, he acknowledges that the current system is unsatisfactory and recognises that the Ireland of the future will require more university graduates in keeping with trends in other developed countries.

    Mike.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,155 Alejandra Refined Starter


    Kilkenny is a city....

    Cullen,imho is a party man...tbh the people of waterford gained all those benefits....

    Now the college needs some serious work done, some serious changes & and some serious input before it can ever be thought of going to university status...

    ..why even university status at all....thats really just a a title imho, If the college pulled its thumb out of its arse and got rid of a lot of the ****e Beauracracy(sp?) and started some proper plans and college infrastucture, i wouldnt mind if they called it a RTC...tis a great college but some of the **** that happens makes me sick sometimes...

    beating it with the moneh stick is not going to make WIT grow...


    A quick look at the list of donations reveals how the property ppl of Waterford have been anything but shafted over the years.

    I dont think Cullen could be credited with bringing a boat race to waterford...considering the location and physical features of the area...
    ...and yippee there is talk about the north Quays developement and a second bridge...there has always been talk about it...whether it will be comlpeted in a timely fashion* i severely doubt it


    tbh

    1. Local infrastructure needs to be severely upgraded...
    2. College needs an Administrative kick in the arse
    3. College needs to expands it facilities....

    University may or may not follow...but the college just has to keep churning out good students & opertunities...




    * within the next 7 years.....not a hope


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 merlante


    ..why even university status at all....thats really just a a title imho, If the college pulled its thumb out of its arse and got rid of a lot of the ****e Beauracracy(sp?) and started some proper plans and college infrastucture, i wouldnt mind if they called it a RTC...tis a great college but some of the **** that happens makes me sick sometimes...

    If you read the actual thread you would have seen plenty of good reasons for a university as opposed to (or as well as) an IT. Some biggies would be, increased funding, the power to make new degrees, the ability to pay staff whatever you want, to be seen in the same light as colleges in the other major cities by business and the media in general, in order to establish non-technical degrees, etc. etc.

    WIT is doing a really good job, considering it is the most poorly funded college per student in the country. And why do you think WIT has some sort of monopoly on beauracracy? You say they should get on with building infrastructure - you think that is up to them? If the WIT got university status, it would have bought out ballybeg by now!
    I dont think Cullen could be credited with bringing a boat race to waterford...considering the location and physical features of the area...

    Yeah, because these things happen of their own accord! I'm sure they'd be breaking their hearts in Dublin to get a boat race for Waterford.
    ...and yippee there is talk about the north Quays developement and a second bridge...there has always been talk about it...whether it will be comlpeted in a timely fashion* i severely doubt it

    The north quays project was started by cullen and it will be cullen that ensure it arrives. The saga of the bridge was due to the incompetence of waterford politicians over the years - we'd better hope things are different this time! Still even the more cynical types are started to see this as happening, and imo it will go ahead unless something crazy happens. It's due to begin by the end of the year, so we'll find out soon enough.

    merlante


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