Infuriating Sunday Times Eircom supplement

Sloth

I bought the Sunday Times today only to open up it's supplement section and be faced with a large 22 page internet guide. I presumed this was another of those stupid doors sections but when I opened it up it revealed itself to be nothing more then a 22 page ad for i-stream going on about how cheap it is and sod all mention of the cap and other issues that face it. I just hate the fact that Eircom have the power and money to have this type of thing included in papers when the better competition barely ever get a mention anywhere.

Paddy20

The Sunday Times supplement article?..

Sloth,

As I gave up buying newspapers some years ago, I have not seen the 22 page propaganda spread. Was it in the Irish Edition?..

If it is so annoying, may I suggest that everyone sends an e-mail to the Editor of the supplement?.. ASAP.

Thanks for highlighting how Eircom uses other peoples money.

Paddy20:mad:

shinzon

No mention of customers that are in Broadband enabled areas and exchanges but cant get it because basically EIRCOM SAYS SO, with no explanation of why


SHIN

carbsy

/me smells more propaganda :mad:

Urban Weigl

What the... Are they seriously going on about how cheap it is? 54.45 euros per month AND 240 euros for the cheap USB modem and activation IS NOT cheap.

Edit: Sorry I just got mad and had to rant.

kamobe

Well - thankfully Esat are running a similarly large ad campaign, directly comparing themselves with Eircom, so at least people know that there's an alternative. Personally I'll be choosing Via's option...

My point is though, that it isn't all just one way this time around, Esat seem to want some of the action

MDR

Same thing was in the Irish Independent on Sunday,
its advertising thats all ....

Paddy20

MDR,

Re:- " Its advertising thats all"?..

Advertising is brainwashing and can also kill millions of people!, look at the power and influence of tobacco conglomerates subtle tactics in convincing the young how too kill themselves and others while it costs people a fortune for the privilege.

The media need advertising but not blatant lying misleading balderdash that hoodwinks and robs citizens of their hard earned money, but the media also has a legal responsibility not to print misleading propaganda and their is an *Advertising standards authority who are supposed to enforce honesty and truthfullness, but do they use their powers ? not likely here in beautiful corrupt Ireland where the powerful look after the capitalists who control them through the power of money.

A rant I know, but I suppose it is better out in the open, than killing me with anger and frustration.

Paddy20.

MDR

A rant I know, but I suppose it is better out in the open, than killing me with anger and frustration.

Paddy

Who are you having a go at ? Why in the name of jesus are venting frustration at me, my comment was an off the cuff remark implying that I didn't believe the supplement was a serious piece of journalism. Its the bank holiday weekend chill the f*ck out.

*Advertising standards authority who are supposed to enforce honesty and truthfullness, but do they use their powers ? not likely here in beautiful corrupt Ireland where the powerful look after the capitalists who control them through the power of money.

The ASAI has been quite a friend of IOFFL, they can only respond to complaints, their mandate is reactive not pro-active. Muck is their best friend, they have upheld many of IOFFL's complaints against Eircom and other over the past year .... engage your brain before your next rant and keep the tinfoil hat wearing, they're all corrupt and out to get me warbling to yourself ....

sceptre

Originally posted by Paddy20
*Advertising standards authority who are supposed to enforce honesty and truthfullness, but do they use their powers ? not likely here in beautiful corrupt Ireland where the powerful look after the capitalists who control them through the power of money.

^what Ray said on this.

I've made four complaints to the ASAI. Three have been upheld, one hasn't. They're good to respond, they do their job well and they publish their results and reasons for the public to read.

Eircom are entitled to advertise. If you find their advertising distasteful, untruthful or offensive to humanity, the ASAI are there to help. It's what they're for.

Advertising is brainwashing and can also kill millions of people!, look at the power and influence of tobacco conglomerates subtle tactics in convincing the young how too kill themselves and others while it costs people a fortune for the privilege.

I invoke Godwin's Law by association. You can't argue a particular case by referring to extremes and expect people to take you seriously. That is all.

Paddy20

MDR,

My power of the advertising industry rant was *NOT directed at you personally and please accept my apologies if I inadvertantly caused you to think it was.

I just find it frightening , when I witness the dire consequences of the multitude lies in all media advertising, in particular one large Telecoms business, the alcohol producers and many others.

However, I am more than pleased too hear from you and Sceptre that the ASAI has been good to IOFFL , but I will still be keeping a beady eye on the MEDIA IN GENERAL who my rant was primarily meant for?..

Paddy20:eek:

Dustaz

Paddy, i suggest you find the homepage of MEDIAINGENERALoffline and go and rant on thier forums because it makes absolutly no sense to mention it here.


Back on topic.

I think everyone has over reacted so far. In fact this is a definite case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.


Currently, demand for broadband is small. The bigger demand there is, the lower prices will get. Demand will not increase rapidly without marketing. How does one market broadband? Hmm, maybe you could buy a supplement in a newspaper.

This is A GOOD THING . Eircom are advertising their own product, sure. THey are also creating a demand for Esats, IBBs and NTLs product and all the rest of the broadband providers.

remember this supplement and that tv ad and the other radio bit is not aimed at you, the IOFFL member, you're going to get some form of broadband regardless. They are aimed at your mother and your collegue and that bloke that drinks down the pub.

Duffman

I particularly enjoyed the "getting the most out the internet" sections....

If I see that bloody eircom mouse again I'm going to scream...

I'm sure the huge advertising budget required to publish 22 page Sunday paper supplements could be put to better use... Perhaps in the provision of actual services to customers....

DSLinAbsentia

Right on. We're now entering a new phase of communications. It's not great, but it's a start. Hey, at least some of us can avail of DSL!

I might suggest that those that really care about a speedy progress (a) write to the media and (b) have the media subscribe to boards.ie and in particular this forum.

For the first time, I have!

Duffman

Originally posted by Dustaz

This is A GOOD THING . Eircom are advertising their own product, sure. THey are also creating a demand for Esats, IBBs and NTLs product and all the rest of the broadband providers.

They are aimed at your mother and your collegue and that bloke that drinks down the pub.

I'm not sure I agree.... demand will be created among mothers and that punter in the pub for E1rcom's "i-stream" product which promises to offer them all these wonderful services...

In order to see beyond the brand name there has to be some basic awareness of the technology behind it....

Eircom ISDN is a classical example... I know countless people who ordered "eircom hi-speed internet" without having a clue what ISDN was...

In conclusion.... it's evil I tells ya.... evil...

sceptre

Originally posted by Duffman
I'm not sure I agree.... demand will be created among mothers and that punter in the pub for E1rcom's "i-stream" product which promises to offer them all these wonderful services...

In order to see beyond the brand name there has to be some basic awareness of the technology behind it....

Well, look at it this way. Let's say Eircom are selling spoons. They're advertising their spoons on the telly and in the newspapers, putting supplements in the Sunday papers about the wonder of their spoons and the advantages they offer over the forks we've all been using this long time to eat our soup[1]. So we all get to hear about this wonderful new invention (the spoon) that will make our lives easier.

IrelandOffline members have been aware of this new spoon technology for years and have been campaigning to have the technology made available to all at a reasonable price. Hang on. Eircom aren't the only supplier of spoons. Esat and Netsource also sell spoons. Mostly they're rebadged Eircom spoons but they're ever so slightly different to the Eircom spoons and they're at a different price as well. This competition for the spoon market fits well with the EU and Irish government policies as they believe that competition in the marketplace is the ultimate and only solution to pricing[2]. It's up to Esat and Netsource to let the public know that they also sell spoons though. There's nothing wrong with Eircom advertising their spoons, giving them a fancy name ('i-swipe') and pretending they're the only spoons in the marketplace (as long as they don't explicitly say that (that would be "a lie")).

Ideally we'd all know how spoons work (some of us do), just as a knowledge of how the internal combustion engine works would be an advantage in buying our next car. The way the typical consumer works, though, is to take advice from their friends as well as being influenced by advertising. Just like a spoon maker with a better handle and a bigger scoop or a car manufacturer with a faster engine, Esat and Netsource can truthfully go on the telly or in the newspapers and say that their product is better and cheaper. If they can prove it. Which for the most part they can.

You're right about ISDN; however ISDN is something of a red herring as an example. Only one company in Ireland offered ISDN as a product. They had no interest in selling it on its actual merits. They had the market to themselves and followed all the usual rules that a monopoly follows when pushing a product. This time it's different. Eircom will of course make money from this either way (they'll pick up an LLU charge from one side, a wholesale fee from another side and they'll be selling their own product directly as well). They'll make money from all of us until we die unless someone else enters the market and builds up an entire network from scratch, including exchanges, last mile infrastructure and all the centralised stuff that's beyond my ken (which is pretty unlikely to happen as no-one's going to be nuts enough to do it using wires). Or unless the market fundamentally changes and we stop using copper to deliver voice and data (which will happen - and it'll happen within my lifetime) and have individuals coming together in groups to change that marketplace (already happening - and in backward old Ireland as well)

Should Eircom be allowed advertise their spoons? Yup. Are they the best spoons available? Hell no. Will people figure this out? Even allowing for my usual belief that 90% of people are too dumb to find the end of their noses, I believe they will. Bottom line though - if people are too slow or pigheaded to realise that there's an alternative out there (just as many of them have been with their home phone service), that's their problem without an easy solution. Education, observation and comparison skills and awareness are probably the greatest gifts we can ever give ourselves. We don't necessarily have to look under the bonnet to see that the car in the corner is a better buy. Even people whose entire understanding of how the Net works relies upon imagining that there are thousands of little monkeys running down their phone line delivering pictures and text to them can still recognise when another product has faster, better and more reliable monkeys. DSL service isn't cheap - it's not like people will be paying peanuts for their monkey, er, DSL service[3]. We (as individuals and as an organisation) can do what we can to let people know that there are alternatives - given that we don't have the cash that Esat (for example) have, it's up to them whether they want to be in the race or sit moaning by the finish line as Eircom limp in first.

If anyone replies with any comment resembling "there is no spoon" there will be trouble:)


[1]With apologies to Brendan Behan
[2]Mostly because they never made it past the economics of John Law and Adam Smith - ignoring the past two hundred years of economic theory is always fun.
[3]Except currently in Tallaght for those with cable internet from NTL @ €30. The peanuts people are paying with don't grow on trees there either. Yes, yes, I know I make an unfunny analogy out of everything. Explain something to someone as if they're four and they may be insulted but they'll definitely understand it.

MadsL

I'm trying to work out what the cap might be on a spoon ... is the cap the hole in the spoon, or does the end of the spoon fall off after you have eaten your share of the soup....???

It's late...I'm going to bed:D

ganam

What sickens me is the dishonesty of the 'supplement'. It pretends to be an objective 'Internet Guide', yet the editorial is clearly biased in favour of one telco.

The story on page 9, for example, purports to give info on "speedy options". Yet only one telco is mentioned in the entire piece and this is repeated throughout this so-called 'Guide'.

Is it sponsored by Eircom? If so, it should be made clear. So people can judge for themselves the accuracy of the claims. Advertising features or commercial features are usually labelled as such.

Besides that, there's something very unsettling about such a publication being produced by a newspaper company whose owner is also on the board of Eircom.

ganam

PS: does anyone know if the supplement was in ALL the Irish sunday newpapers?

ednwireland

ganam, what you have to realise is that all the supplements are funded by advertising, if you want objective or at least unsponsored(generally views) read things like the boards or some of the review sites which users who have bought and use products post their views (i use a number of sites before i buy anything) If you want a product reviewed or you want an article published then you HAVE to buy a certain amount of advertising in the supplement, even things like area supplements ( a donegal supplement was published once and to get an article published on your company you had to pay)
so before you read any supplement or review check the advrtising and see who's paid for it AND if you read a good review think about this relationship - its the world we live in, cynicism rules!
ESHAT have alos published such one sided suplements and i'm sure many small business people have been suckered into thinking this are independant obective publications - they rarely are

DSLinAbsentia

Every business has an obligation to advertise their products to gain the maximum return in sales - that's fine.

Where the media have a responsibility is in unbiased commentary of these services. Other media types (say in the general computer journals) carry "sponsored" supplements touting their products as possibly the greatest thing since sliced bread - then you go to the actual reviews where they're benchmarked.

It's this kind of public benchmarking that hits the spots we want addressed. I don't believe the boards are enough to be honest. The IOFFL forum is fantastic because there are a "few" activitsts. I'm not an activist myself (shame on me) but I'd certainly be keen to take guidance on how to up the ante.

Perhaps a suggestion to Irish Computer to do an exposé on broadband offerings, picking an overall winner, would be interesting? Perhaps letters to the editor in the Irish Times would be another?

shinzon

Im sorry have eircom suddenly decided to monopolise the catering business

SPOONS SPOONS SPOONS I SEE DEAD SPOONS

Sorry couldnt resist


VIVA LA EIRCOM VIVA LE CROISSANT, VIVA LE REVOLUTION

SHIN

DSLinAbsentia

Originally posted by Duffman
I'm not sure I agree.... demand will be created among mothers and that punter in the pub for E1rcom's "i-stream" product which promises to offer them all these wonderful services...

In order to see beyond the brand name there has to be some basic awareness of the technology behind it....


In support of Duffman It's important to take into account the fact that
[a] Punters in the pub are interested in pints and footy, not broadband
The % of the population needing/wanting/lusting after broadband is extremely small!

Let's not over generalise!

Paddy20

DSLinAbsentia,

Re:- quote [a] "Punters in the pub are interested in pints and footy, not broadband" Balderdash? Were you interested before you found out the TRUE possibilities of it. Never underestimate *Joe Public.

" The % of the popuation needing/wanting/ lusting after broadband is extremely small!. Sorry, more total rubbish. Have you ever taken the time to inform someone of the sheer magic and freedomof the Internet?.. If not start now!, and watch their faces light up with amazement and wonder and lust for - a computer - and FRIACO and broadband.

No one of my generation wanted an education, until they received it. The same applies you have the power to change things - do it.

Paddy20

DSLinAbsentia

Seems to me that you're in need of some stem cell injections.

These boards are used by a priviliged "subset" of society - that is, the information enabled. This is a minority whatever way you cut it. The best examples of technologies that currently have mass penetration are Radio, TV and cellphones.

I never underestimate the public - nor do I overestimate it. I am absolutely a technology advocate and would consider myself to be an evangelist in my immediate social cirlcle (real people, not board users) but not to the point where I'm a sucker for it.

You're also confusing "wanting" an education with "knowing education is available". You can only not want something you know exists.

Perhaps you'd like to tell the board what the sheer freedom and magic of the internet is? Perhaps we'd use your insight to elucidate the less fortunate!

MDR

There is very little demand for broadband at the moment, now when FRIACO based product creates Ireland's own little legion of Script Kiddies .... then there will be a demand, probabily starting to rise significantily around this time next year ....

DSLinAbsentia

... And don't get me wrong, the future can be bright. That's the nice thing about the future, there's always the potential for it to be bright and rosy and warm 'n' fuzzy...

FYI: Recent info From itech research

5.1 Universal access
To briefly summarise the data introduced earlier, 20 percent of Irish households have a computer connected to the Internet, up from 5 percent two years previously. When access from work and other places is considered, about 25 percent of the Irish population is using the Internet, slightly less than the EU average.

Analysis of the user profile found that Internet users have higher household incomes, are from more privileged classes, and have more educational qualifications; as well more men than women are using the Internet. Seventy-five percent of people in Ireland are not using the Internet and the core of the non-users are those not working, "housewives", those on lower-than-average household incomes, older people, and farmers and other agricultural workers.

Ireland has a much higher percentage of Public Internet Access Points than the EU average. However those interested in using the PIAPs have higher incomes and educational qualifications, suggesting that many PIAP users already have Internet access at home.

These figures quite obviously indicate that the Internet is still an elite technology with a user profile very uneven by key socio-economic indicators. They also suggest that the Internet penetration rates in Sweden of more than 60 percent of the population will not be matched in Ireland in the near future. None of the surveys suggest that Internet penetration in Ireland will be as universal as that for television or telephony (and recent developments in broadband Internet in Ireland and mobile Internet in Europe also do not suggest that these will be commonly used for Internet access in the near future

Dustaz

Originally posted by Paddy20
DSLinAbsentia,

Re:- quote [a] "Punters in the pub are interested in pints and footy, not broadband" Balderdash? Were you interested before you found out the TRUE possibilities of it. Never underestimate *Joe Public.

Hes right, Joe Public DOESNT really care about broadband at the moment. Its not untill he finds out about it will he be interested. which leads me onto .....

" The % of the popuation needing/wanting/ lusting after broadband is extremely small!. Sorry, more total rubbish. Have you ever taken the time to inform someone of the sheer magic and freedomof the Internet?.. If not start now!, and watch their faces light up with amazement and wonder and lust for - a computer - and FRIACO and broadband.

Its not total rubbish, its absolutly spot on paddy. So you've takent the time to inform people? Did those people want the internet before? no, otherwise you would not have to inform them of anything.

That is why the original point of this thread was so flawed, this country NEEDS supplements and advertising extolling the virtues of broadband, regardless of agenda. These forms of media can reach far more people in less time than anything Ireland Offline can do.

The irony now is that eircom are working towards IOFFL's goal - More interest, more connections, more demand and so at the end of the day more competition and cheaper pricing.

No one of my generation wanted an education, until they received it. The same applies you have the power to change things - do it.

Paddy20 [/B][/QUOTE]

Gremlin

A sponsored supplement like that must cost a pretty penny. It tells me that eircom are serious about selling internet technology. I say good luck to em. If esat or anyone else wants to pay for one good luck to em too. All it does is heighten awareness and that has to be good.