What do you make of Gender Only clubs.

DeVore

The Master golf thing got me thing about the rational behind gender-only groups and where you draw the line.

Clearly (at least clearly to me) female-only rape support groups are acceptible. Male-only golf clubs make me uncomfortable and I'd say they were out of line.

However theres an argument to say that gender only clubs serve a purpose. Men (particularly) are pack animals and often seek the community of other men for socialising etc.
Women can be as bad though the opportunities for women to create such groups havent historically existed.

Every community has a doorman of some sort. Nightclubs traditionally have stopped people in white runners. Mensa has an IQ test to join (afaik).
Why if someone goes to the trouble of creating a community and imposes a "door policy" is it ok so long as none of the "traditional" minorities are excluded?

I'm not talking about groups that receive tax-payers support, those should be open to all tax-payers but I havent worked out a rational for what is an acceptible "door policy"?

Anyone got thoughts on gender-only clubs/communities/groups?

DeV.

Rabies

Originally posted by DeVore
Every community has a doorman of some sort. DeV.

Who is the door man for Boards.ie ?

I don't think a club should be strictly men/women only, but as you pointed out support groups are different.

Some times its great when there is no women around in a club. You don't have to watch your launguage and can have a general guy bullsh!t conversation with the women moaning over your shoulder.

I think clubs should have a mens/ladies day at least once a week. that would keep both sides happy.

The Corinthian

I was asked to speak at a UCD Women’s Group debate a good few years ago, to give the male’s perspective to Male only clubs. What caught my attention was that I was not invited to the reception afterwards. It was women only. Cries of equality of the genders by feminists have been duly ignored by me ever since.

I’ve played golf in men only clubs and often go for lunch with my father at his gentleman’s club and there’s really no harm to such a practice per say. I include that caveat because the harm is when there is more to the club that meets the eye, when it becomes ‘the place’ to broker deals in business or politics.

That would be wrong, but as I began, women are just as capable of doing that as men, so it would also be wrong only to act as watchdog only towards male associations.

bonkey

Originally posted by DeVore
Anyone got thoughts on gender-only clubs/communities/groups?

IMHO, if the nature of the club/community/group is not such that it "needs" to be gender-specific (e.g. a rape support group, or a single fathers group, or something), then I think it should not be permitted to be so.

The problem is where to stop with this. Should sporting events (for example) become uni-gender? Would this not be discriminatory in its own right, as in most sports there is a measurable difference in the performance of the respective genders.

I remember reading somewhere about the top women's golfer possibly playing in the "mens" tournament. Most people say "good for her - if she's good enough to hold her own, she should be allowed in there". How many of you will also say that the men who aren't quite good enough for the men's tour should equally be allowed play on the women's tour instead (using pretty much the same logic, only gender-reversed). No? Wouldnt that be discriminatory then - giving one gender "benefits" that the other gets no reciprocal of?

This leads to what annoys me about the situation behind the whole gender-equality thing, is the belief that "men-only == wrong, women-only == perfectly reasonable".

There is a massive amount (IMHO) of reverse sexism in Ireland (and western society in general) today. I know my mum voted for the last 2 presidents because they were women. If I used the same logic - picking the only male candidate because he was male, I would be a sexist.

Another example, I have a female friend who at one stage told me she believed in completely sexual equality, but also that male-to-female chivalry was essential. In other words, men and women are completely equal, but if you come to a door, it is the man's job to open and hold it for the woman. Similarly, in one of my previous jobs, the boss (a woman) insisted that only male members of staff could carry monitors around the building when needed, as the women weren't strong enough....and yet insisted that she was a strong believer in equality. Not just equal rights, but equality. Riiiight. Thats why my friend never opens the door for me, but expects me to do it for her - because we're equal and treat each other equally....just like what she believes in.

Ultimately, I think thats where my stance ends up. Both genders should reach a decision as to how much equality they are willing to give the other - and thats as much as they can have themselves. Any case being brought setting gender-specific precedence should be 100% useable as precedence in a gender-reversed situation.

jc

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Zukustious

Originally posted by daveirl

And then we get to my treatment in College. There are scholarships awarded specifically for women in Science and Engineering. Can you imagine the uproar in the media if there was a male only scholarship? Just this weekend in UCC there was an open day specifically for girls interested in Science and Engineering, was there one specifically for boys. No! Is my brother a leaving cert student being discriminated on the basis of his sex - Yes!

Very interesting. This seems pretty unfair. I'd say that they are trying to make things better for women but they still don't regard them as equals. Sometimes the worlds idiosy amuses me. But then I realise I'm part of the world.

DeVore

Well... this thread certainly took an interesting turn. I agree with many of the points but I dont think we should consider " they are sexist so we can be too" sort of reasoning.

We all know that the courts are sexist towards women in such things as marraige breakup and retaining child custody but its not a simple issue. Lets go there in a different thread.

This is about gender-only clubs/groups. Now, I'm keeping this neutral: When should we accept them and when are they unacceptible.

For example: Are the gentlemens clubs on stephens green ok? They dont seem to do any harm but they are almost certainly used for business networking.

I have to say I wouldnt join one (their raison d'etre is too selfish) but if someone only wants to do business with men, the lack of a club isnt going to stop them!

I'd enjoy a place where you could be sure you werent going to offend a lady, and have a bit of lads-only crack. I see nothing wrong with women doing that too but I'd also want to be able to mix and have a laugh with women as well...

Can we stay on topic, tell me what you think about gender-only groups...
(if anyone wants to rant about sexual inequality, please start a new thread... I'd post on it!!)


DeV.

bonkey

Originally posted by DeVore
I'd enjoy a place where you could be sure you werent going to offend a lady, and have a bit of lads-only crack.

But the general approach should be - IMHO - that women should be permitted entry - as long as they accept the "raison d'etre" of the place being male-focussed. Ditto gender-reversed.

The "gentlemen's clubs" of the Stephen's Green variety, I am ideologically opposed to. They harken from an era where they represented the continuing oppression of women's rights by men. These clubs - like the tradition of men retiring to the billiards room for after-dinner cigars and brandies while the women went to the drawing room for womanly pursuits - should be retired to the scrap-heap of history. or brought into line with the times.

jc

The Corinthian

Originally posted by DeVore
Well... this thread certainly took an interesting turn. I agree with many of the points but I dont think we should consider " they are sexist so we can be too" sort of reasoning.

I pointed out at least one case where a gender only club would not be appropriate. However, the “they are sexist so we can be too” reasoning is perfectly valid. If the argument is one that promotes female emancipation (let’s face it, you began a thread about Male Only Clubs not Gender Only Clubs) and gender equality, then one has to consider the issue of hypocrisy with regard to this issue.

If someone demands that we should do as they say and not do as they do, it is perfectly acceptable for us to use this as reason to not comply. That should be examined when discussing this issue, especially if it is (as has been demonstrated here) a deciding factor in the reasoning of individuals.

For example: Are the gentlemens clubs on stephens green ok? They dont seem to do any harm but they are almost certainly used for business networking.

They’re not really, most are glorified retirement homes, for the most part. Join a golf club, or even a gym for the networking.

I have to say I wouldnt join one (their raison d'etre is too selfish) but if someone only wants to do business with men, the lack of a club isnt going to stop them!

The official raison d'etre of most gentlemen’s clubs is that of charitable works (just like the Freemasons, DeVore ).

Samara

I myself have never had any desire to go to these 'gentlemen' clubs, but I don't think women as a whole should be disallowed membership. If you like to be able to go out free of fear of insulting a woman, either watch what you say just don't talk to any!!!
I would imagine if women were permitted membership, a group of men could go and stick to themselves if that's what they wanted or is there some unwritten law that says they have to 'mingle'??

Regarding the reverse - women only clubs, these are also another group I have also never had a desire to join. They are often plagued by overly sensitive feminists who are hypocritical and display alarming amounts of double standards!! If it's just a social group, men should if they so desired be allowed membership.

Saying that, I couldn't really care less whether or not these groups allow the other gender as it simply doesn't affect me.

One point I'd like to make is rape support groups, there have been cases of women raping men, much as it is derised with comments from men like 'I wouldn't mind being raped' etc. and women who simply believe such a thing isn't possible and doesn't affect the victim and so I don't think that these support groups should be female only.

Single mother/Single father groups should ideally be merged as single parent groups, but at the end of the day what does it really matter?? It's a way for these people to escape for a while, experience a bit of solidarity, feel special. They are not really harming anyone. Soo it's not politically correct and feminists and their male counterparts get on their bandwagon, these people should get a life, there's more important issues that need tackling and the energy wasted on trivial things like this could be put to much better use!

Wook

I think man or woman clubs are just fine as long as there are no anti-social idea's behind it. No Anti woman or man perse, just a devide. Hell sometimes i do wish to be among man and just get drunk talk **** and be rude for a moment. If one single woman would visit this place it would all be 'political correct'..even with our big mouth's and desperate attitude. I mean, i dont go visiting Tea-afternoons or the woman-liberation front and expect to be entertained...or maybe..naah nevermind.

I would find it completly ok to have place of our own as i would be ok to let the girl's have one as well :P
I think most man and woman sometimes need to get away from it all.

DeVore

Originally posted by Rabies
Who is the door man for Boards.ie ?

I am.

Thats not a brag or a claim to fame. Its just one of my roles here.

I'm backed up by the other admins, the mods, the regular users, but daily I make judgement calls on the acceptibility of a poster to remain in this community.

I sleep like a baby in case you are wondering.


My point is this: all groups have someone who ultimately makes that decision. Either by peer pressure or on the quiet or overtly.

They all have their own criteria and people who fall outside that criteria regardless of how nice a person they otherwise be will not be admitted.

Can I claim Trainerism if I'm refused entry to a nightclub because they have a "no trainers" rule? Can I claim sexism if I'm not allowed into a drinks reception because I'm male?

Is there a difference between these examples and if so what is it?

DeV.

Meh

Originally posted by DeVore
Can I claim Trainerism if I'm refused entry to a nightclub because they have a "no trainers" rule? Can I claim sexism if I'm not allowed into a drinks reception because I'm male?

Is there a difference between these examples and if so what is it?

Not just one, but two:

1. You chose to put on those trainers
2. You can easily solve the problem by changing into shoes

Neither of which is true if you are denied entry because of your gender.

Blitzkrieger

Originally posted by bonkey

This leads to what annoys me about the situation behind the whole gender-equality thing, is the belief that "men-only == wrong, women-only == perfectly reasonable".

I agree.

Originally posted by daveirl
I feel that discrimination has gone full circle and now Men are treated unequally all over the place, but when you try and make this point you get accused of wasting time.

That's true too

Originally posted by Meh
Neither of which is true if you are denied entry because of your gender.

You could always dress up.


This is supposed to be a free country isn't it? Why shouldn't I be allowed to open a men's only club if I wanted to? Feminists use :

Originally posted by The Corinthian
I include that caveat because the harm is when there is more to the club that meets the eye, when it becomes ‘the place’ to broker deals in business or politics.

as an excuse, and maybe sometimes it's true, but I can't help but feel that they're going too far. It seems these day's that they believe that anything "men only" is bad. To address The Corinthian's point directly, is it 'the place' or just 'a place'? Women may be excluded from the club but I find it hard to believe they'd never have a chance to meet outside the club. Tbh, I think feminists objections to men only clubs are so overblown that they're absurd.

There was a topic here before about a swimming/fitness club that had a women only day, but no men only day. I believe almost every pool/leisure club has a women only day, but no men's day. There's a place in Cork called easy-gym that's completly women only. Should us men be up in arms picketing the place? Or should we stfu and start our own gym if we want it that badly? Who among us believes that a men only easy-gym wouldn't be shut down within five minutes?

Borzoi

My attitude to clubs is the same as my attitude to drinks, drugs etc.

Whose business is it what I (or my friends) do provided we're not harming others?


No ones


So if any club wants state support then they should have to comply with equality legislation, but if it just trots along and bothers no one, then it's no one's business except the members.

bonkey

Originally posted by Samara
One point I'd like to make is rape support groups, there have been cases of women raping men, much as it is derised with comments from men like 'I wouldn't mind being raped' etc. and women who simply believe such a thing isn't possible and doesn't affect the victim and so I don't think that these support groups should be female only.

Ignoring the issue that the Irish Government doesnt officially recognise male rape (unless I'm mistaken, it is a lesser-classified crime, perhaps sexual assault), I would still maintain that they should at least be gender-sperated.

jc

rubadub

"This leads to what annoys me about the situation behind the whole gender-equality thing, is the belief that "men-only ==
wrong, women-only == perfectly reasonable"."
it is a "2 wrongs DO make a right" argument. "we were wronged in the past so you will be wronged now" racism in the US has
gone this way too. in 20 years it may swing again with men going on about how they had to put up with dear insurance and not getting jobs due to employers female quotas.

"There is a massive amount (IMHO) of reverse sexism in Ireland (and western society in general) today. I know my mum voted
for the last 2 presidents because they were women. If I used the same logic - picking the only male candidate because he was male, I would be a sexist."
yep, "if shes a woman and got that far she must be brilliant". my mates family changed to a female dentist and and his mother was raving about her telling all her friends about her, now they realise she is not good (many fillings falling out etc!) and it sickened his mother who had to "unrecommend" her to her friends. the point is she never recommended the previous male dentist who was very good. there are lots of women who are sexist against women too ,or presuming that males are in certain positions that women could not be in. i often hear women commenting about inventions or designs like "typical men cant even make a milk carton thats easy to open" as though it is up to men, or that no woman would be capable of being an inventor. same with the joke about NASA spending millions to make a pen that would write in space, the punchline being "a woman would have used a pen" which presumes there are no women in NASA.

"Next up take advertising standards. If you use a women sexualy in an ad, you are definitely going to get a complaint, but usq\ze a man and it's all good fun. I've said that the next time I see this I'm going to make a complaint to the ASAI just to highlight the treatment men get relative to women."
yeah "its all good fun", like women going to see male strippers its all a laugh but if a man goes to a strip show hes a filthy pervert leering at poor degraded women.

"If you like to be able to go out free of fear of insulting a woman, either watch what you say just don't talk to any!!!
I would imagine if women were permitted membership, a group of men could go and stick to themselves if that's what they wanted or is there some unwritten law that says they have to 'mingle'??"
women like to get together to be free of fear of insulting men too. see the gangs of hen parties screaming "get your cocks out". if you complained to a garda they'd say "harmless fun" or say sarcastically "ye poor fella" but if it was a woman complaining of being harassed on the street by a stag party....

"One point I'd like to make is rape support groups, there have been cases of women raping men, much as it is derised with
comments from men like 'I wouldn't mind being raped' etc. and women who simply believe such a thing isn't possible and
doesn't affect the victim and so I don't think that these support groups should be female only."
anybody have the figure from the rape crisis centre for male rape. i think it estimated that as much as 1 in 4 rapes commited are on men (please correct me if wrong). i know 2 guys who were raped. go up to a bouncer and say a girl grabbed your arse you'll be told you're lucky whereas a guy is thrown out. like statutory rape of male minors by older women the normal response is "the lucky young lad, i wish i had an ould wan when i was 14" whereas a 14 year old girl has suffered a horrific ordeal.

"There was a topic here before about a swimming/fitness club that had a women only day, but no men only day."
crazy. like females getting into nightclubs free, blatantly sexist and if it was the other way around there would be hell to pay.

female car insurance is predicted to rise above that for males in the next 5 years according to the AA (since women are catching up on men for mileage per year). i wonder if insurers will be so quick to have ads about discounts for "gentlemen drivers", or will they keep the fact hush-hush. if negroes were proved to claim more per year would they get away with having adverts saying "discount for caucasian drivers".

as for men-only and women-only groups, i see no problem with it as long as they are private enterprises and not funded by taxpayers money in any way.