flaws in the system.

GuanYin

Given there have been a few threads about changing courses here, and that college retention rates are at an all time low (DCU had courses as high as 80% drop out rate at one stage), do you think that people are not getting proper guidance in choosing the right courses for them, the economic strains are to blame (as many SU organisations have claimed) or that the college courses in some cases are too demanding?

ted03

The reaso that college dropout rates are so high is that half the courses are s-*te. the timetable are badly organised. ahlf the course material is a joke
Over 90% of material covered will never be used again and this is fact is obvious to all student.
No practical Use for info. learned = no point in learning it
this contriutes to high drop out rates:(

scojones

Originally posted by ted03
Over 90% of material covered will never be used again

Where do you get your figures guy? Show me the basis on which you base (sounds neat. i know) this percentage.

Sparks

ted,
It depends on the course. I recall 100% of the course notes I took in structural mechanics being identical to the notes my father took in that course a decade (and two lecturer changes) earlier. And that's because they were the fundamentals. Civil engineering has been around for a while, so it's been pretty well hashed out to the point where civil engineering ethics courses are standard. Computer science is still a baby in those terms.
However, consider - would you really want to try to teach computer science formally using production methodologies?

The real reason for drop-outs is less pleasant. Speaking as a TA, I simply no longer see students who are willing to put in the required effort, and I'm seeing far too many students who don't meet basic standards for english and mathematical ability. That's why UL is running remedial english and maths courses. That's why TCD needs to (but TCD being TCD, they never will ).

I hate to sound like I'm 80, but educational levels have dropped for the pre-college students to the point where most of college is spent catching up to where they should have been before they got into college in the first place.

GuanYin

I personally think alot of it has to do with the lack of proper career guidance and an interview system in colleges.

I said it before on another thread, if someone was to take a 4 year contract on the job title alone you would think them insane, yet hundreds do it every year with college applications....

damnyanks

Perhaps its the fact that there are so many college courses ? Actuary is like 400 in UL or some place like that I think. There are also a huge amount of computer courses alot don't fill up and will gladly take anyone that has applied.

Annasopra

Yes, I think the secondary school career guidance system is to blame, its a shambles,

There are many reasons for third level dropouts:
some of these are my own opinion

• Financial Cutbaks causing a drop in the quality of courses
• Improper 2nd level career guidance
• Students themselves not actually wanting to be in college
• Parents forcing expectations on students to go to college
• Lack of finances to actually get through college

The Higher Education Authority studied non completion in 2001 and issued a report which can be found on their website www.hea.ie

Snowball

I think it's all a load of bollox. My course was just as hard last year (acording to my lecturars) and there was a 50% drop out rate before exams and 25% of the ppl that made it failed. Its not that hard. ppl r just lasy. 1 guy is on my course now was on last year and says that no one did any work and thats why they droped out.

30 years ago they had they same amout of stuff to study (contend diferent but same amount) and they had to pay for their own college fees and al that, thye had no support systems or any of what we have and they did the same or better.

I say we r just lazy (me included)

ted03

got to agree with you there mate
everyone, well not everyone, a lot of students of today are lazy. i am ill be the first to admit it. exams in six weeks and out most nights of the week.

GuanYin

Perhaps 15 years ago students might have been out as much if they hadn't had to pay fees.


I'll bet if fees do come in soon, the publicans will feel it in the pocket!!

Sparks

Bollocks syke. I was in second year when the free fees came in. Didn't affect the good students - and the bad ones were hopeless to start with.

djunclemacs

nice topic!


my motto is worry bout problems i.e projects, exams at the time
no point worrying
if we fail we fail

live life to the full

GuanYin

Originally posted by Sparks
Bollocks syke. I was in second year when the free fees came in. Didn't affect the good students - and the bad ones were hopeless to start with.

It didn't affect the good students whose parents could pay for them in college!

I'm pretty sure, if you were scraping by financially like I was in college, the free fees was oen of the greatest things ever. My social life was paltry until fees went out and I could afford to give up part time work and socialise more.

Strangely I teach students in a very high points course at the moment and quite a few of them struggle, mainly because they didn't do certain subjects in school (where as those who have taken those LC subjects get by ok) and partly because they had no idea about some of the aspects of the course they took.

Most of these guys would be supercompetitive students on 550pts + coming into college, so I imagine they can be classed as "good students"?

Sparks

It didn't affect the good students whose parents could pay for them in college!

Oddly enough, not that many of them around...

I'm pretty sure, if you were scraping by financially like I was in college, the free fees was oen of the greatest things ever.

Yup, meant my sister could go to college before I finished.
Social life? Sorry, no time. Had to work my nuts off.

Strangely I teach students in a very high points course at the moment and quite a few of them struggle, mainly because they didn't do certain subjects in school (where as those who have taken those LC subjects get by ok) and partly because they had no idea about some of the aspects of the course they took.

Most of these guys would be supercompetitive students on 550pts + coming into college, so I imagine they can be classed as "good students"?

I'm seeing the same thing. Unfortunately it's down to the fact that you can be damn good at sitting the L.Cert, and hopeless at maths or english in the real world.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Sparks
Oddly enough, not that many of them around...


Yup, meant my sister could go to college before I finished.
Social life? Sorry, no time. Had to work my nuts off.

I think we've gobe off topic here, its not just a case of good student-bad student. Most people don't go do a technical degree for the heck of it. Its 4 years of their life with little to no money. In alot of cases students simply pick the wrong course for them, or pick a course for the wrong reason. Generally you find the ones in the bar all day are the ones that couldn't give a toss about the subject they are studying.

The answer isn't about labelling students as wasters, its ensuring that they are informed enough to avoid this situation before they go to college.

Originally posted by Sparks
I'm seeing the same thing. Unfortunately it's down to the fact that you can be damn good at sitting the L.Cert, and hopeless at maths or english in the real world. [/B]

Again, thats a gross and somewhat patronizing generalisation. I teach non-clinical aspects of a medical course. You can get by what I teach with basic english and an understanding of maths. After that you really need Chem, Biology and maybe Physics.

Of couse the way our LC system works, you can get into the course with only one of those.... and those students invariably struggle. A-level students wouldn't get into the course in england unless they had biology and either chem or physics. Which makes much more sense.

Of couse if schools had guidance teachers to explain the course details before hand, none of that would be a problem.

leeroybrown

I think a lot of the drop out rate is associated with people making poor choices.

It's very difficult for someone to know what they want to do before coming to college. People end up picking courses on the basis of a whim and end up making a very ill informed decision.

I can understand people in Leaving Cert being indecisive about what they want to do as choosing a college course is a big decision. I have one relative who is repeating her LC due to poor CAO choices.

When I went to college I decided that I'd like to do some branch of Engineering so I did Undenominated Eng in NUG, Galway. The course gave me an extra year to choose and has resulted in me being in Electronics & Computers and not Civil.

There seems to be a lack of good information about courses coming from both the Colleges and the Gudiance Councellors about courses. For example how many people in the LC know what an Engineer *really* does or what a person does in an IT or Comp Science degree.

Then top this off with a lazy/poor attitude.

It's not a good situation when someone is in danger of failing their course and still fails to put in the work. Unfortunately it happens all too often. I never worked as hard as I could have in college (Infact my work dropped off towards the end of the degree) but I still made sure I left with a 1.1 for my efforts.

I'd also say that a large percentage of people coming from the LC are unwilling (maybe even unable) to do some work without constant prompting. If you doss in school you get given out to ... If you skip 20 hours of lectures every week in college you just fail.

Sparks

a gross and somewhat patronizing generalisation.

Not meant to be. The courses I teach in are computer science and engineering. We get a lot of kids who achieved high marks in the LC, but lack fundamental chunks of knowlege regarding basic maths and english. That's why UL now run remedial courses in both for engineers and why TCD needs to.

Annasopra

In 2001 Colm Jordan the then USI Education officer made a speech at a higher education authority confertence on non completion at 3rd level

You can find the speech at the web link below and I have also copied and pasted some of the speech below

http://www.usi.ie/news/colm28may.htm


Cause of non-completion
Lack of Career Guidance

Recommendations
The restoration of the ratio of one Guidance Counsellor to every 250 student that existed up to 1983

Cause of non-completion
Isolation on campus

Recommendations
Development of Clubs and Societies. Development of a peer support "Buddy System".
The development of an inclusive ethos on campus.

Cause of non-completion
Poor mathematical, problem solving skills.

Recommendations
An evaluation of the leaving Certificate mathematics curriculum

Cause of non-completion
Pressure on student to go to Higher Education regardless

Recommendations
Improved Guidance, student ownership of course choice.

Cause of non-completion
Financial pressures

Recommendations
A grant that accurately reflects the cost of attending College

Cause of non-completion
Lack of resources, equipment and facilities.

Recommendations
Increased capital investment in Higher Education

leeroybrown

Lack of Career Guidance

Quite often it's not the "lack" per say, but more so a lack of good information coming from guidance councellors.

A lot of people start a course not realising what the syllabus will entail or where it will take them. Obviously it's pretty hard to fill people in completely, but a big improvement is probably possible.

Isolation on campus

As someone who was and still is (despite my graduate status) highly involved with College Societies I can say that there is no better way to make people feel welcome on campus. Unfortunately a huge number of people won't even bother joining let alone participating despite our best efforts.

The buddy (or mentor) system is running sucessfully in some colleges.

I don't think a review of the LC maths curriculum will yeild much of a change. If someone doesn't want to learn maths its pretty hard to make them. Informing people of Maths levels for courses would be good tho.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

leeroybrown

Quite often courses that involve a reasonable level of Mathematics, eg Eng, C.S, IT, etc will have a very large portion of Maths/Science based study in the first two years.

Now I'm not knocking that ... it's essential grounding. What I would say tho is that the manner in which the material is lectured is in many cases not condusive to easy learning let alone interest.

As an under graduate I floated through Maths, etc without any particular interest and found the lectures of minimal usefulness in a lot of cases. I have always found Maths easy tho, so this could prove a large problem for other people.

You end up with a "Not interested in it, Don't want to learn it, Don't find it easy ... therefore I'm unable to do it" mentality. You'd fail pretty quickly if you thought like that.

I have friends who have struggled their way through courses that they have hated because they decide to put up with it because it will get them a job. Many others I know didn't bother with the struggle.

Snowball

Originally posted by leeroybrown
I think a lot of the drop out rate is associated with people making poor choices.

I think u hit th enail on the head there.

I recon that all school leaver should have a min of 1 year compulsary leave before going to college and that some courses should have a min of 6 months of an aprentaship or something simular so that u know that u have some kind of interest in the subject that u are choosing

Does not have to be that exact way but something simular

Snowball

Originally posted by leeroybrown
Quite often courses that involve a reasonable level of Mathematics, eg Eng, C.S, IT, etc will have a very large portion of Maths/Science based study in the first two years.....You end up with a "Not interested in it, Don't want to learn it, Don't find it easy ... therefore I'm unable to do it" mentality. You'd fail pretty quickly if you thought like that.

The course that I have chosen to go onto has 2 math subjects. WHY????? sometimes it can be to much. The course I have chosen to move to when I am finished this one is Netowrking in Carlow it. And its basicaly all programing and maths. Looks good and it extreemly good for what I want combined with my course (Networking and Optical Communications). I end up with network programing and networking (including fibre optics) so its ns (+ I get to do the CCNA) but the other course not realy networking, should be called network progaming.

damnyanks

I just started first year at NCI this year. I remember asking my guidance teacher about the college, he had never heard of it!

It was his only job to inform students about their possible choices and he couldnt even tell me about a college. From what I;ve seen all they do is sit at the desk and open up that software that lists all the courses. Perhaps some sort of evaluation on guidance teachers would be helpful.

Also maybe limit the choice limit in the CAO, alot of people just fill them up so that they get some form of offer. A fair amount of people in my course just dont want to be here. Then you got the odd bum that is so set on not doing any work they will happilly fail the year.