French get their own back

Bard

Freedom fries my arse...

BERLIN (Reuters) - No more Coca-Cola or Budweiser, no Marlboro, no American whiskey or even American Express cards -- a growing number of restaurants in Germany are taking everything American off their menus to protest the war in Iraq



Although the protests are mainly symbolic, waiters in dozens of bars and restaurants in Hamburg, Berlin, Munich, Bonn and other German cities are telling patrons, "Sorry, Coca-Cola is not available any more due to the current political situation."


The boycotts appear to be part of a nascent worldwide movement. One Web site, www.consumers-against-war.de calls for boycotts of 27 top American firms from Microsoft to Kodak while another, www.adbusters.org urges the "millions of people against the war" to "Boycott Brand America."


Consumer fury seems to be on the rise. Demonstrators in Paris smashed the windows of a McDonald's restaurant last week, forcing police in riot gear to move in to protect staff and customers of the American fast-food outlet. The attackers sprayed obscenities and "boycott" on the windows.

(Much) more at: Yahoo!News article


French people taking part in a "NO BLOOD FOR COCA COLA!" protest

Caption from humour web site: "Strange how even in this protest all you really look at is the soda because nobody cares about the French. "

dahamsta

I want to come back to this again: People have argued here that boycotting American (and possibly UK) products will harm domestic economic stability, and I don't dispute that. However, given the dominance of US companies in business, won't it do more harm to American companies, which would after all be the point, in a roundabout manner?

Also, isn't there a possibility that reducing our reliance on American business could be advantageous in the medium to long term? I realise that this doesn't exactly square with capitalist ideals, but surely it would be a good thing to start relying more on indigenous industry?

adam

Bard

I don't know, really. My complaint regarding the war would be with the American administration, not with the people who live and work there and/or their employers.

Dr_Teeth

It's a good idea regardless of the political situation. If a european product does the job just as well, then buy it. The money then stays in the EU, gets taxed in the EU, and then gets spent on phat new roads for us. As opposed to it being exported to the states, taxed in the states and spent on new types of nukes.

Teeth.

Moriarty

People seem to be blind to the fact that no one is forced to buy american products. People buy the mentioned products because they are more often than not superior to other brands on the market. Take coke for instance; its a unique taste that, most people will agree, other colas compare rather poorly to. Microsoft, wether by underhanded means or not, have a dominant position in the market because no one has made a desktop OS to better it.

If europeans want me to buy their products over american ones, they arent going to win me over by pleading to my patriotisim or "anti-americanisim" (erk, i just used that phrase ). They will only win me over if they offer a superior product at a competitive price. They dont seem to be able to do that and so i will continue to buy american products and services.

Originally posted by Dr_Teeth
It's a good idea regardless of the political situation. If a european product does the job just as well, then buy it. The money then stays in the EU, gets taxed in the EU, and then gets spent on phat new roads for us. As opposed to it being exported to the states, taxed in the states and spent on new types of nukes.

Teeth.

That tax money could find it's way into objective one funds to build infrastructure in West Wales either...
mm

dahamsta

Originally posted by Bard
My complaint regarding the war would be with the American administration, not with the people who live and work there and/or their employers.

So is mine, however we don't have a say in America (some might argue that the majority of American citizens don't either, but that's another argument entirely) so how do you suggest we address their foreign policy? Or do you think we should remain reticent?

Originally posted by Moriarty
People seem to be blind to the fact that no one is forced to buy american products. People buy the mentioned products because they are more often than not superior to other brands on the market. Take coke for instance; its a unique taste that, most people will agree, other colas compare rather poorly to. Microsoft, wether by underhanded means or not, have a dominant position in the market because no one has made a desktop OS to better it.

Absolutely true, no-one is forced to buy American products, and this is partially why I find the indignation expressed by some people a little odd. It's my decision after all.

I disagree with you on other stuff though. I prefer Pepsi as it happens - Pepsi Max to be precise - but I just don't like Coke anymore because I got used to Pepsi, and I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen if I switch to a domestic brand. As to Microsoft, I think you're forgetting that Microsoft is a convicted monopolist, which makes it very easy to argue that no-one has made a better desktop OS because Microsoft's anti-competitive behaviour prevented them from doing so.

Originally posted by Man
That tax money could find it's way into objective one funds to build infrastructure in West Wales either...

That would be an ecumenical matter.

adam

Moriarty

Originally posted by dahamsta
I disagree with you on other stuff though. I prefer Pepsi as it happens - Pepsi Max to be precise - but I just don't like Coke anymore because I got used to Pepsi, and I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen if I switch to a domestic brand. As to Microsoft, I think you're forgetting that Microsoft is a convicted monopolist, which makes it very easy to argue that no-one has made a better desktop OS because Microsoft's anti-competitive behaviour prevented them from doing so.

adam

I always thought pepsi drinkers were an odd bunch

The point about microsoft is that they were there to do it first. As such, they took a lions share of the market and successfully drove home that advantage into almost complete market dominance. The difference between being a successful business and a monopoly is seemingly a rather hazy line. From my point of view, theyre entitled to do whatever they want inside their own OS as it is all their software after all. True, a lot of others will disagree with me, including us & eu courts, but thats just the way i see it. If someone else wants to come along and make a new OS along with full office software and games support ill be willing to give it a try. Theres nothing technically stopping somone from doing this, its just a rather large mountain to climb since they have left it so long. I seem to have drifted vastly off topic, blast

Wook

since i dont consider myself as a radical person but politics and the war just affects me badly, because of all the known reasons , i would boycot certain things.
First of all you are not always aware what is American and what is not. Some of the things american are just too good to be avoided and there is no alternative.

But there are certain things i would try to avoid doing.
Holliday trips to New york and the rest of the USA is just not done by myself.
I dont buy Nike and other american sportsbrand's.(also for different reasons)
There are just a couple of things which i can find european replacements for and thats what i do.

Gerry

Yeah, but the war has perhaps brought a load of issues relating to american power to peoples minds. I'm not talking about the socialist workers party style organisations, but people outside of the normal "anti-american" group. I think that this war may actually produce good results, its quite obvious that saddams own people don't like him either. However america has gone about the war in the worst way possible. I have major issues with the american administration and their motives, but I don't know what their motives are exactly. Its certainly wrong to say "its all about oil". Its also wrong to say that its about al-queda. It be a long term plan to stabilize the middle east, or at least keep it america friendly. The plan has not been executed very well, but its not certain that the current level of anti-american feeling will amount to very much in the end.

I think that people are also thinking more about the merits of corporate power, which is a good thing.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Moriarty
I always thought pepsi drinkers were an odd bunch

And Pepsi Max, no less! Weirder still! Although I'm pleased to clarify that I don't snowboard, rollerblade or throw myself off buildings. I leave that to other people.

Now, I don't like going off-topic but I feel I have to...

The point about microsoft is that they were there to do it first.

Well, no they didn't, Apple did. And before Apple there was blah, and before blah there was yadda. Microsoft has a proven "embrace and extend" strategy of begging, borrowing and stealing innovation in order to develop their own products.

As such, they took a lions share of the market and successfully drove home that advantage into almost complete market dominance.

Indeed they did, with immoral and often illegal business practices. Apart from the antitrust cases, did you know that Microsoft was convicted of software piracy in France? True.

theyre entitled to do whatever they want inside their own OS as it is all their software after all. True, a lot of others will disagree with me, including us & eu courts, but thats just the way i see it.

Absolutely, but they didn't limit themselves to that, unfortunately. I'm not disagreeing with you by the way, I'm telling you you're wrong.

Hey, I'm posting this from Windows 2000. I like the product a smidgeon better than Red Hat, so it's my default, and I like it because it's good software, the best OS Microsoft has produced yet imho. My use of it doesn't mean I have to like their business practices though, neither does it stop me from making Red Hat 9 my default next week, and evangelising Linux to others. When it's for the server-side, I'm not even being slightly hypocritical.

adam

Moriarty

Originally posted by dahamsta
When it's for the server-side, I'm not even being slightly hypocritical.

Everyone knows FreeBSD beats the pants off linux for the best server-side OS award

dahamsta

Originally posted by Moriarty
Everyone knows FreeBSD beats the pants off linux for the best server-side OS award

I have that argument regularly with my, uh, colleagues.

adam

Shinji

I'm not sure about the whole boycott thing really - but then again, I don't buy much American stuff in the first place. If I can buy a European alternative to an American product I always will, assuming there isn't a massive quality/price differential (and there rarely is).

It's just an extension of the same impulse which sees me buying Irish products wherever possible. I'm a European, why should my cash spent at retail go into American coffers?

(Oh, and besides, most American made stuff is rubbish. Boycott McDonalds, Burger King, KFC? Never mind the war, I'll do that for my health. Boycott Pepsi and Coca-Cola? Same thing. Boycott Microsoft? It's not like I'd be able to justify the costs of their OS as a consumer anyway. Boycott Nike? I'm not stupid enough to pay for designer labels in the first place...)

Typedef

OpenBSD is supposed to be more secure, then Free and more to the point Red Hat & Microsoft are both American entities.

Use Mandrake (French)
or OpenBSD (Canadian).

</pedantic>

Cork

I wonder about the sales of Cousine De France in the US. This brand is owned by IAWS - Irish company.

Boycotting helped in South Africa's Apartaid day's. But boycotting products because they come from the US is senseless.

The US company will merely say - Sales in Quarter 1 in region X have fallen.

Are we to stop going to the cimena to see US films or buying cds by US artiests or even watching US TV programmes?

People like their Hollywood films, US music & US TV.

mike65

Originally posted by Shinji
(Oh, and besides, most American made stuff is rubbish. Boycott McDonalds, Burger King, KFC? Never mind the war, I'll do that for my health.

Good idea but Burger King is'nt even American, its owned by Grand Metropolitan which is a UK conglomerate. But that may be considered fair game at the mo.

As for issue, I'm not a fan of active political
boycotting but, like others do, at times
I'll buy something fron country A rather than B for other reasons like is it made localy or is it "greener", does it cost much more/less, and so on.

Mike.

daveirl

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DadaKopf

I'm not sure about a boycott either. I don't drink Coke or Pepsi products, I don't eat Nestlé stuff, I try my best not to rely on medicine unless necessary, I've stolen all my Microsoft software and so on. I do that because I disagree with what the companies do to make money, which includes the ways that they interfere with democratic instutions in their own country and in other countries.

I have a gripe with the companies and the people in government who let them get away with stuff. I haven't a problem with the American people and it's a matter of bad faith to boycott American goods because of something only a select group of people are doing. Inevitably, when corporations lose money, cheap workers are the first to go. Pressurising corporations to change their behaviour through direct action is one thing but attempting to affect a government through this same route is a bad idea. Corporations respond to consumers but governments don't. They respond to corporations.

I'd much prefer if everyone concentrated on writing letters to their TD's, marching in the streets and protesting at Shannon. At least then, the Irish can affect the war both practically and politically and the message won't get muddied.

I just wish we could boycott Haliburton.

dahamsta

Watch me veer off-topic again...

I don't agree with your decision to steal Microsoft software, but that's not actually what I want to veer off-topic about. You say:

I'd much prefer if everyone concentrated on writing letters to their TD's, marching in the streets and protesting at Shannon. At least then, the Irish can affect the war both practically and politically and the message won't get muddied.

Well, first of all, I'm not entirely sure that the marches are going to do what you suggest. But aside from that, I'm finding myself in this annoying situation where practically everyone I know is opposed to the war, but not one of them will come to a march with me. Perhaps it's the smell, but it's really starting to annoy the crap out of me. Why is this? Are these just armchair opposers? And no, I won't traipse all the way up to Shannon or Dublin on my tod. Some people might be able to handle that, but not me.

adam

daveirl

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pickarooney

Originally posted by mike65
Good idea but Burger King is'nt even American, its owned by Grand Metropolitan which is a UK conglomerate. But that may be considered fair game at the mo.

It used to be owned by Grand Metropolitan until that latter merged with Guinness and a big spirits company (I forget which one) to form Diageo. Diageo then sold BK to Texas Pacific. Technically that makes it American now, but it kind of goes to show the futility of associating coprporations with countries.

Cork

Originally posted by daveirl
Personally I won't go to anything that Sinn Féin are using as a publicity stunt. They want Saddam to disarm, you don't have to look that far away to find people who should disarm.

Honestly I think most people who are anti-war that don't go to these things have issues with one or more of the groups organising it. I know that is why Fine Gael didn't go even though they are anti-war.

I suppose that's just petty Irish politics, but I don't want to make it look like the Socialist Workers Party actually have a load of support.

This is my problem with these marchs. I just have no time for either the Socialist Workers Party or Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein really need to apply their Iraqi speechs to Northern Ireland.

But I believe, the Irish are Anti-War with very good reason. We had enough violence in this country & seeing it on TV 100 miles up the road has brought the horror of shootings and bombings home to us.

But getting back to the topic "French get their own back" - I think the French boycotting US goods or vice vearsa is petty. This one upmanship is pretty childish.

We live in an era of global brands. Coke & Pepsi are now global companies and global brands. As is Baileys, Guinness & Kerrygold from Ireland.

Typedef

Are we to stop going to the cimena to see US films or buying cds by US artiests or even watching US TV programmes?

Excuse me, unless we are missing a fundamental definition of what the term "boycotting" implies, the answer to your question has to be yes, if you feel strongly enough about issue (x) and want that issue redressed, one of the most effective non-violent (and perhaps even more effective then violence) methods of redress is to boycott a product or produce from a particular country/region/socio-political conglomeration.

basically.

dahamsta

Personally I won't go to anything that Sinn Féin are using as a publicity stunt.

And the SWP, and others too. The Phoenix find the battle for control of the marches a right laugh.

I see your point, and I don't like the politicising of this either. I refised to sign a petition recently because there was an SWP banner above it. How do I know what they're going to do with my signature? They could use it as a demonstration of support for the SWP for all I know.

However, is this really a good enough reason to not join a march? Isn't opposing this senseless war more important? Is it possible to go on one of these marches and stay away from the politicised banners and fanatical loonies? As usual, I don't know, I'm asking.

adam

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

dahamsta

Well, I know we have to inject a half-pillar of salt into commentary from The Phoenix, but they seem to think that there's been a minor little war here too, over control of the marches. They reckon that SWP had control of the first major march, the Shinners wrested it off them for the last one, and the Peace and Neutrality Alliance played a trump card this time and is trying to form a shaky alliance.

It's a pity it's like this though. It's a pity they can't have "Stop the War" banners, and not "Stop the War, Sponsored by SWP" banners. It's not a marketing event. But I guess there's nothing stopping us from playing their game, and marching under a boards.ie/politics banner. Wish I'd thought of that earlier in the week, we could've gone for pints afterwards and the whole shooting match. Maybe next time.

adam

daveirl

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froggy 2

Well,

In fact nobody I know has even considered boycotting american products...
In fact we basically don't care what American do about french wine, and it tends to make us laugh a bit (a bit just like f**ckfrance.com).
After all, if they buy our wine and don't drink it, it's great: we could sell some "bibine a clochard" for a "grand cru classé" (to be read with the beautiful accent of an english speaking french please).
Some of us tend to answer with childish behaviour however.

Cork

Originally posted by daveirl


At the same time when Caoimhín O'Caolain writes in The Irish Times that it's not hypocritical to hold onto weapons while calling for Iraq to disarm it pushes me back to anti the anti war marches.

I had a discussion with a SF person today. I told him that the IRA should distroy their weapons - as they are rotting away anyway. This would inspire confidence by Unionists in the Peace process.

He was having none of it.

Well, I know we have to inject a half-pillar of salt into commentary from The Phoenix, but they seem to think that there's been a minor little war here too, over control of the marches. They reckon that SWP had control of the first major march, the Shinners wrested it off them for the last one, and the Peace and Neutrality Alliance played a trump card this time and is trying to form a shaky alliance.

It is a pity that these marchs are being hijacked by various groupings. We are all Anti-War. But - Iraq needs to begin to become democratic and give rights to women. Some of us see the current war as unnecessary and others see as the only means of getting rid of Saddam.

B