Dail Questions: E-Minister, Broadband Rollout, Wireless, PART 1

De Rebel

The following is an extract from the Dail Record of Tuesday 25th March - I'm posting it here as a direct link is not possible. It is copied from www.irlgov.ie

This is from Taoiseach's Question Time at 2.30pm.

1. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach the responsibilities of the Ministers of State attached to his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2426/03]

The Taoiseach: I answered a similar question in the House on 15 October last year and I refer the Deputy to the comprehensive answer I gave on that occasion. The Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Hanafin, as Chief Whip, is primarily responsible for the organisation of Government business in the Dáil and the Government's programme for Dáil reform. She also oversees preparation of the Government's legislative programme and is responsible for the Central Statistics Office. She also has special responsibility for information society development with particular regard to advancing strategic priorities.

The other Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Roche, has a pivotal role in advancing preparations for Ireland's Presidency of the European Union next year. In addition, he has a heavy workload within the Department of Foreign Affairs representing the Government at meetings in a wide range of contexts related to European affairs and representing Ireland at EU meetings at Minister of State level on European Union affairs. He is also extensively engaged in his role as the Government's representative on the Convention on the Future of Europe.

Mr. Kenny: Does the Taoiseach accept that Ireland's low ranking at 25th among OECD countries in the international information society index and in the e-rankings as published by The Economist Intelligence Unit, underlines the need for a more aggressive approach to the e-commerce brief by the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Hanafin?

The Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Roche, heckled me in the House last week. He is not present today but

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Mr. F. McGrath: He has a sore throat.

Mr. Kenny:

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he represents the Government at the Convention on the Future of Europe. Will the Taoiseach outline whether he has tabled any specific proposals for the development of the e-commerce concept at the Convention and if there has been any response?

The Taoiseach: The responsibilities of the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Hanafin, do not impinge on the specific functions assigned to individual Ministers or Departments relating to the infrastructural issues around commerce in the telecommunications infrastructure. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has the functional responsibilities but the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, is responsible for co-ordinating the continuing development of the information society, ensuring that information society issues are prioritised across all Departments - from monitoring implementation of the new connections action plan to co-ordinating the implementation of the e-Europe action plan up to 2005.

The key structures are in place to deal with that - the Cabinet committee on the information society is chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin; there is a strategy group at Secretary General level and there is the information society implementation group of assistant secretaries. Other Ministers have responsibility for different areas. Numerous reports with differing criteria address various IT infrastructural issues. In some of these reports, Ireland is at number one; in others, at the bottom; and in yet others still, in the middle. Through various Departments and agencies, we are constantly trying to achieve as much as possible to be among the higher level groupings.

Mr. Durkan: Given that it appears Ireland has slipped in the international pecking order in this vital area of development, does the Taoiseach agree that it is necessary to take specific initiatives to retrieve the situation which prevailed ten years ago, when our world ranking in e-commerce and IT was among the best under every heading? Does he further agree that, unless we return to this situation, our international position will get worse?

An Ceann Comhairle: The question refers specifically to the responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin.

The Taoiseach: It is our intention to stay up the pecking order. Many of the technologies and the work with which the Minister for State is involved, in trying to keep us to the forefront, was not invented three years ago. The rate of change in the area is immense. I assure the Deputy that we are trying to keep ourselves at the front line in these areas.

The Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Roche, has tabled a comprehensive paper, on which he acted as rapporteur, on the institutional issues of the Convention on the Future of Europe. He has also submitted other papers along with other Members. He is gaining support for that and trying to pull together the views of the smaller countries on the institutional issues.

Mr. Kenny: Most of the proposals put forward by the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, are voluminous. With regard to the e-commerce responsibilities allocated to the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, it is her responsibility to co-ordinate e-commerce services between Departments and agencies of the State. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has responsibility for providing the engine for that, the roll-out of broadband. Is it not a fact, therefore, that the Minister of State's brief is constrained by the lack of action in the provision of broadband? The Minister recently announced the roll-out of broadband around certain towns but it is virtually impossible to dig up every lane and road in the country to provide that cable. Will the Minister of State be facilitated, in respect of her e-commerce brief, by an additional emphasis on wireless technology to facilitate the physical provision of e-commerce?

The Taoiseach: It should be clarified that e-commerce is within the brief of the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern. Broadband is in the brief of the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern. Neither of them is the responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin.

Mr. Kenny: There are four involved now.

The Taoiseach: Technology applies across practically every area. Broadband is being rolled out and the first 17 areas are under operation at present. It is a short procedure. Wireless technology has been examined. Wireless technology is grand if it is within a complex. The technology is constantly advancing and changing, even in the last 18 months. At the last committee meeting I saw a brief on some of the latest technology. Wireless technology works fine in an area such as Government Buildings but it would not work in an area of the west of Ireland away from a centre. It would still be necessary to roll-out broadband.

The plan in the short term is to roll-out broadband to the 17 towns. Over the next few years, there is a progressive plan to bring it to 123 towns. The resources have been provided for that in the national development plan. It is not possible, and will not be possible in the foreseeable future, to have it in every village and town in the country. I agree with the Deputy that as wireless technology improves we should use it where possible. However, it is limited. There was a theory a couple of years ago that wireless technology would work anywhere but, like the operation of mobile telephones, telexes and so forth, the same difficulty arises. It has a use and a value but it is limited. In the areas where one would wish it to work, it is more limited than broadband.

It is not a case of either one or the other. The broadband roll-out provided for in the five year programme must take place and the resources are available for it. Wireless technology can then be used in a more focused and limited area.

Mr. Kenny: When Senator O'Rourke was the Minister in that Department she initiated a pilot project in parts of the west of Ireland and some other areas using satellite facilities. This has been an outstanding success. In the case of schools, it has allowed children from geographically disadvantaged areas

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An Ceann Comhairle: Has the Deputy a supplementary question that is appropriate to the question he submitted, which deals exclusively with the responsibilities of the Minister of State?

Mr. Kenny: Is that experiment likely to be continued? In areas that neither wireless nor cable will ever reach, it allows e-commerce to be made available across the board and, in that regard, facilitates equality of opportunity. Will the Taoiseach comment on this and assure the House that, in so far as it is possible, the momentum will be maintained?

An Ceann Comhairle: That is outside the subject of the Deputy's question.

...............continued, next post

De Rebel

...........continued

Mr. Coveney: The Taoiseach has correctly pointed out that 17 towns are earmarked for what are called "fibre rings", which is part of the strategy to roll-out broadband. Is the Taoiseach confirming that the other towns in phases 2 and 3 of the fibre ring project, making up a total of 123, will go ahead on time? My understanding is that phases 2 and 3 were to be delayed. Will the Taoiseach confirm that after the 17 towns have been completed

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An Ceann Comhairle: That question would be more appropriate for the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern.

Mr. Coveney: It is a supplementary to the Taoiseach's reply that we have just heard.

An Ceann Comhairle: Yes, but we are getting into detail which is the responsibility of a different Minister.

Mr. Coveney: I am trying to clarify the position to ensure that the House has not been misled.

The Taoiseach: The intention is to roll-out the first stage of that project. As Deputy Coveney is aware, the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, has made it clear that broadband remains the top information society priority. It came originally from the Forfás report. The Minister has started rolling out areas and he has the resources to do so in the national development plan. It is the intention to keep on doing that, whether or not we can get to 123 towns within the period.

The Deputy will also be aware that the operational advances in doing this by using rail links and other methods are not nearly as complex as they were when we started the project three or four years ago. There are imaginative ways of doing it that are less disruptive. We were told, for example, that the construction programme for the 17 towns would be quite long. Deputy Kenny will be aware that one of the largest initial projects in Ballina was only announced in February and finished in May. Therefore, it is useful to know the actual construction time and cost involved, and we can gauge them quite quickly in doing this. On the satellite issue, we are moving ahead on some of those in both first and second level education.

For what its worth, imho its good to see the issue getting an airing at this level, with informed comments from both sides (notwithstanding a number of inaccuracies on the part of the respondent) – at least there appears to be an awareness of the issues.

dahamsta

The intention is to roll-out the first stage of that project.

In one sentence, the backdown begins.

I have to agree with De Rebel though that it's good to see questions being asked at this level. Quite surprising, actually, to see Enda Kenny kicking the questions off. Where's Rabid?

adam

sceptre

Just a quick note:

This is a good topic - and a relevant topic. Because of its political nature, there's a danger that people may feel it's a good place to attack (or defend) one side or the other for the sheer sake of it.

Any people doing a party political broadcast (or just posting inanely) will get edited, slapped and possibly kicked (that's "banned" in usual parlance). And yes, I'm thinking specific people. Don't start. I'm not kidding. I'm in a bitchy mood this week so muppetry is on a hiatus.

MDR

well done Mr Kenny and Mr Coverny, although I was concerned that there was one vital missing word involved in all of this

Affordable

I don't want to see us go down the Eircom DSL road again, 'sure you can broadband in Dublin 5, which vital organ do you wish to sell'.

spongebob

Congrats to all who have helped to brief Simon Coveney and Enda Kenny on the issues. I remember revisiting this issue after the Waterford / South East ring included in Phase One was chopped (OK delayed so) by Dermot Ahern in December 2002 .

Phase one always had 19 towns, there being issues as to when the 19 towns would be fibre ringed and as to the spend which appears to constantly mutate downwards, see Here for discussion and links to data relevant to this thread.

I noted with regret that all and sundry had dropped 2 towns by the time the matter came up for discussion in the Dáil yesterday. Both Government and opposition settled for a 17 town phase one. I never heard of a 17 town phase one before. Was it Clonmel or Carrick on Shannon or Roscommon or Manorhamilton that got the chop, I don't know TBH

Which 2 towns have now been officially dropped , that would be a valid supplementary question.

Changing 19 to 17 on the fly may amount to misleading the Dáil except that O'Rourke did not announce the 19 town plan in the Dáil in the first place ISTR.

M

dahamsta

Muck, where's the list of towns on gov.ie? If you can point it out, I'll email Simon Coveney about it later on today.

adam

spongebob

Original Statement By Mary O'Rourke (19 Towns) March 2002

Dermot Ahern Defends Cutbacks (but 19 Towns it Still Is) December 2002

Dermot Ahern visits Cork a pimping (but 19 Towns it Still Is) February 2003

Here are the 19 towns as restated by Dermot Ahern in the Feb 2003 announcement ...... 6 weeks ago people.

The 19 towns involved in the project are: Waterford, Dungarvan, Wexford, Carlow, Clonmel, Kilkenny, Cork, Shannon/Limerick, Galway, Athlone, Mullingar, Carrick on Shannon, Manorhamilton, Gaoth Dobhair, Roscommon, Portlaoise, Letterkenny, Tullamore, Ballina.

Where did this crap about 17 towns appear from all of a sudden. Don't accept Kiltimagh as an excuse either . The list above is the oiginal list of 19 towns from which we appear to have lost 2 in the space of 6 weeks it seems.

Mail him the link to this article Adam, otherwise there is no hope for us !

M

dahamsta

Cheers Muck.

(I haven't been able to pay as much attention to IO as I'd like lately. I'm sure you've noticed the lack of quality in my posts.;))

adam

BoneCollector

from the original post of Q&A
Its seems all to clear that the response as usual is to not take responsibity and answer the question but to refere to other dpts and try to confuse people with information that is not relevent to the original question.

In other words....
Dont answer if its too emabrising, just muddle some confusing setances together and try sound as if you know what your talking about all the while your talking about something completely unrelated. :rolleyes:

dahamsta

De Rebel, I know you say you can't link to this debate, but can you tell me how to get to it. There's no session listed for yesterday.

http://www.irlgov.ie/debates-03/dail.htm

adam

De Rebel

Originally posted by dahamsta
There's no session listed for yesterday.

There is now, maybe its been updated.

I got to it as follows

www.irlgov.ie
Houses of the Oireachtas (Parliment)
Parliamentary Debates Unrevised 2002 . 2003 (updated every day) (Click on 2003)
Click on the picture of the Dail Chamber
Its the first item on the list, Questions - Ministerial Responsibilities.


About the 17/19 towns, I'd say it was just a slip of the tongue. Rember that question was asked from the floor, not researched and submitted. The important thing is that this "firber rings as a panacea" nonsense was challenged on the spot.

De Rebel

Adam

What about the comments in respect of Wireless? Do these stand up?

spongebob

Originally posted by De Rebel
Adam

What about the comments in respect of Wireless? Do these stand up?

I trust you man this bit Bertie said

The Taoiseach: Technology applies across practically every area. Broadband is being rolled out and the first 17 areas are under operation at present. It is a short procedure. Wireless technology has been examined. Wireless technology is grand if it is within a complex. The technology is constantly advancing and changing, even in the last 18 months. At the last committee meeting I saw a brief on some of the latest technology. Wireless technology works fine in an area such as Government Buildings but it would not work in an area of the west of Ireland away from a centre. It would still be necessary to roll-out broadband.

Don't even start me . This is a reply written by a not very (technically) clued up civil servant. As a paragraph the above means.

Wireless works in Buildings and especially government buildings. I saw it dere meself. Therefore it will not work in the West of Ireland but ye can take yeer chances in the South of Ireland if ye want.

later on he when was warmed up, he said.

I agree with the Deputy that as wireless technology improves we should use it where possible. However, it is limited. There was a theory a couple of years ago that wireless technology would work anywhere but, like the operation of mobile telephones, telexes and so forth, the same difficulty arises. It has a use and a value but it is limited. In the areas where one would wish it to work, it is more limited than broadband.

Meaning

De Civil servants dont want me to make promises about de Wireless stuff. De boggers have hopes for it but it is messy because dem feckers in Vodafone and Hutchison will sue de feck out of us with deyre expensive 3g licences dat dey must pay us for if we let de boggers do with de wireless what dey did wit dem deflectors over de years.

M

Jorinn

He seems to be saying that wireless is not broadband, which is incorrect, it can be broadband as esat have demonstaretd with their hotspots, which have some of the, ahem, most broad connections in the country. 10mbit or so I recall. This i clearly broadband, it's higher than the max on glite dsl, which is 8 mbit.

Also the taoiseach said that as technology changed so fast we had to leave time to adapt. AFAIK DSL was first developed in the 80's for streaming video and for use, so we're then just a minimum of 13 years behind and a max of 23? That's great, apparently it'll be all good in 5 years. So the government has a minmum response time of 18 years and in some cvases up to 28?

pld Bertie

PeterG

Hi, Im new to the forum so please excuse me for any stupid mistakes.

Surely it is no wonder people find it hard to get information when so many dept's are involved. Even a TD keeps getting told he is asking the wrong person. What we obviously need is one minister in charge of technology throughout the govt.

Also what is the story with the rollout of broadband to all the towns. What happens when the govt. cable gets to the town? is it then up to eircom to provide the local loop or will this just be more cable left unlit?

dahamsta

Hi Simon,

It's great to see yourself and Enda Kenny standing up in the Dáil and asking important questions about Information Society, as you did yesterday, however as usual I'm afraid I have a couple of niggles I'd like to point out, and a couple of questions I'd like you to ask on my behalf as a constituent. To quote the Taoiseach:

The Taoiseach: Technology applies across practically every area. Broadband is being rolled out and the first 17 areas are under operation at present. It is a short procedure. Wireless technology has been examined. Wireless technology is grand if it is within a complex. The technology is constantly advancing and changing, even in the last 18 months. At the last committee meeting I saw a brief on some of the latest technology. Wireless technology works fine in an area such as Government Buildings but it would not work in an area of the west of Ireland away from a centre. It would still be necessary to roll-out broadband.

The first phase of the so-called "fibre-rings" initiative was made up of 19 towns, not 17 -- you can see the original announcement by Mary O'Rourke here, and follow-ups by Dermot Ahern here and here. Could you find out for me if this was an error or a backdown on the part of An Taoiseach please? Also, you're no doubt aware that the Taoiseach didn't answer your question as to whether the project would be discontinued at Phase One, which I would like you to follow up on my behalf, as it has a direct bearing on the future of CorkWAN.

Also, I'd like to add that the Taoiseach's commentary on wireless was absolute rubbish, and you can quote me as Public Relations Officer of CorkWAN on that. Wireless technologies such as 802.11b will work for distances of several miles, all that is required is that subscribers have a clear view of an antennae. Moreover, with newer technologies like "mesh radio", connections can be extended even further with cooperation between subscribers. It's also important to point out that the lack of investment by cable operators and the expense of satellite means that wireless is the only viable alternative to DSL.

I hope you'll be able to clear these matters up for me.

Thanks,
Adam Beecher

yellum

I think we can all overlook our political inclinations if the people asking the questions ask intelligent ones and help the IO cause.

Well done to the FG lads and those IrelandOffline members that briefed them. As for Berties bit on wireless, does he not read the Comreg info docs on technology they send out from time to time ?

Damien

spongebob

Nice to see you and Enda on the case.

In September 2001, the Dept of the Taoiseach put together a Highly Competent Cross Departmental Committee of Civil Servants to look into the Broadband Infrastructure situation in Irleand and to take a Holistic view of what could be done by ALL Government Departments acting in Collusion and in a Coherent manner, to progress Broadband.

Being a High Powered Committee, the Civil Servants produced an Excellent report for the Taoiseach in Feb 2002, some 6 months later. Here is the Report Itself 400k PDF.

It could reasonably be inferred in June 2002 that Mary Hanafin may have been tasked , with the full authority of the Taoiseach behind her, to progress these matters on all fronts.....but no.

Mary was immediately shooooed off by Dermot Ahern who sees Broadband and related matters as his patch.

The report, in which the Civil Service proposed eminently sensible solutions for Final Mile access, has gathered dust.

Martin Cullen has not directed that any ducting be provisioned by Local Authorities. The Building Regulations do not mandate ducting in Apartment or High Density Urban developments.

Neither the Taoiseach nor Hanafin have implemented the "Intensive Preparatory Implementation Phase" that was suposed to happen between APRIL 2002 and JULY 2002

No statutory solutions have been proposed or enacted to enable "Convergence and Competition" as recommended.

The mission statement which should drive Broadband policy IN the State and FOR the state is succintly put on Page 15 out of 27 (it is a very readable document by the way)

(Starting From March 2002 , ONE YEAR AGO)

"We wish to see Ireland in the Top Decile of OECD countries for Broadband within 3 years"

As there are Circa 30 OECD countries, we must therefore be in the top 3 by March 2005 . We wont get past Korea by March 2005 lads, will we so maybe we'll have to settle for second place.......shucks.

Thats what the Taoiseachs Department tells us in the report the Taoiseach commissioned. What has the Taoiseach done about it in that time?

M

De Rebel

Muck

Did you/Will you actually send that?

dahamsta

Originally posted by yellum
As for Berties bit on wireless, does he not read the Comreg info docs on technology they send out from time to time ?

Well, if I was Taoiseach I wouldn't read the Quarterly Reviews unless I'd run out of alternatives sources of fiction.

adam

spongebob

Simon should really come over here to the forum and read it himself, if he cannot follow a link, embedded in an email, to my post and further on to the documents I have linked ........ then I suspect that he is in the wrong job.

Of course, I reserve no copyright whatsoever on the post either but it does contain one key embedded link so he should get the PDF as an attachment if you choose to email the post to him...

Rgds

M

dahamsta

Due respect Muck, Simon's a pretty busy man. I don't doubt that he or one of his staff come in here once in a while - usually to check if my latest email's been posted, Ill wager - but I don't think it's really appropriate to post something here on the off chance. If you have something to say to him, you should send it to him so he has a proper chance to respond. His email address is scoveney@oireachtas.irlgov.ie.

Gah, this is the second time I've dueled with Muck in the last two days. Who started a Divide and Conquer campaign?

adam

spongebob

Adam

I believe you and De Rebel may even be his constituents.

Thats a Chain Gun on the weapons bar when dealing with TD's, if yaknowhaddimean

dahamsta

I believe you and De Rebel may even be his constituents.

I am, and I've already written to him. Maybe when he comes back to me, I'll send yours on, but Simon's also the Fine Gael shadow cabinet minister with direct responsibilities for these issues, so you have just as much right to write to him as I do. It's not the same as saying he'll take any notice of you, but it's worth a shot, right?

adam