rock/metal, an outsider looking in

red_ice

Hi, im not a big fan of rock or metal. I just want to know what the big atttraction is to somehting that can only do one thing - give you a serious head ache when you listen to it.

I dont see why someone should make a somg dedicated to '666' and 'Satan'. One thing that seems to always come up is peoples 'mortality' and the word 'blood' gets thrown in there some what...

Im not saying that i hate the whole rock, metal scene. I just think that the lable 'rock' has gone downhill BIG time since the days of GnR and Sound Garden. IMO the songs make no sence now, with the exception of RATM's music - another retired band..

Also the stupid names for bands that come associated with rock - 'tool' and the likes. I mean cmon, you would seriously want to be a ****ing tool to self proclaim that lable.

As i said, im not against rock, i just think that its gone downhill immencly since the middle 90's and metal aswell.

Im playing the guitar 9 years now, and i haev tried my hand at some of the songs that are being relesed.... man its crap.. Do these people know more than one or two chords? "hey, i have an idea, lets scream into a mic and play the same ****in chord over and over... rock on man!".
CRAP! Bring back the days of van halen, hot for the teacher and eruption... THATS playing the guitar and at least poses some tallent in the eyes of a knowlegable guitarest!

The reason that i posted this post is for the simple reason that i saw a post saying something like "What metal are you into now"..

Well stan the man who posted that topic i think the answer is - WHO GIVES A SPANKED MONEYS ASS... its all the same no matter what you lable it...

Yours truely

Eddie Van Halen... i mean uh.. reDDY.

The Reaper

aw jesus to tired to answer all of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but its the same as any music!
if u go out to ur nite club u still get ur headache!
its just a differnt type of music it has the same reasons as every other type! blood is used in lyrics - yes but in boyzone or westlife or any of them gay pansies they famous word wud be smile!
so its the same reasons just a different type of music! cud be bothered sayin any more! to much more to say and im to tired!
sorry
zzzzzZZZZZ!

Ph3n0m

It is true that a lot of the mainstream rock or heavy metal has gone steadily down hill since the 90's. But that is not to say there is no technicality left in the playing of such "heavy" music.

Most of the more technical bands that are out there (and there are quite a few) simply are unknown by the majority of the world because they are not mainstream, they are not featured on MTV or VH1 24/7. These bands do write and create music that is both imaginative and captivating - its just unfortunate they are being ignored.

I know AngelWhore, Pornapster will start mentioning bands like In Flames, etc, as being technically proficient - and they aer right - its just the media doesnt give enough attention to anything that is not generally popular to the music listening audience as a whole.

There are bands past and present that still do the "666" and "Satan Rules" for their lyrical content - unfortunately there are only some bands that are generally accepted in the metal scene who do these types of lyrical content and do it well.

As for a serious headache - all I can say is turn the radio down - I cant believe I just said what my parents said to me all my life....lol

cournioni

Originally posted by red_ice
Hi, im not a big fan of rock or metal. I just want to know what the big atttraction is to somehting that can only do one thing - give you a serious head ache when you listen to it.

I dont see why someone should make a somg dedicated to '666' and 'Satan'. One thing that seems to always come up is peoples 'mortality' and the word 'blood' gets thrown in there some what...

Im not saying that i hate the whole rock, metal scene. I just think that the lable 'rock' has gone downhill BIG time since the days of GnR and Sound Garden. IMO the songs make no sence now, with the exception of RATM's music - another retired band..

Also the stupid names for bands that come associated with rock - 'tool' and the likes. I mean cmon, you would seriously want to be a ****ing tool to self proclaim that lable.

As i said, im not against rock, i just think that its gone downhill immencly since the middle 90's and metal aswell.

Im playing the guitar 9 years now, and i haev tried my hand at some of the songs that are being relesed.... man its crap.. Do these people know more than one or two chords? "hey, i have an idea, lets scream into a mic and play the same ****in chord over and over... rock on man!".
CRAP! Bring back the days of van halen, hot for the teacher and eruption... THATS playing the guitar and at least poses some tallent in the eyes of a knowlegable guitarest!

The reason that i posted this post is for the simple reason that i saw a post saying something like "What metal are you into now"..

Well stan the man who posted that topic i think the answer is - WHO GIVES A SPANKED MONEYS ASS... its all the same no matter what you lable it...

Yours truely

Eddie Van Halen... i mean uh.. reDDY.

We like the music nothing else. Its fun to listen to and is very talented music. I don't listen to it so people will think I'm hard and I certainly don't listen to it because of how heavy some of it is. As soon as I listen to something I like by a metal band and I pick up my guitar and try to play it. You can't do that in most other genres of music.

Once someone tells me that metal is "just noise" I know straight away that they do not have a clue what their on about. Metal is proven to be the closest genre to Classical music. Now what does that tell you?

As for you playing new music. Try playing songs from the following bands... Dream Theater, In Flames, Sentenced, Shadows Fall, Metallica, Megadeth, Down, Meshuggah, Fear Factory, Testament, and some Pantera stuff. Steve Vai and Joe Satriani are also classed as metal so try some of their stuff too.

red_ice

You can't do that in most other genres of music.

Straight away i can tell you are talking form the anal passage.
All music is fun to find out on the guitar. the first time i played jonny bgood was a great feeling... beacuse it took me about a week to find out. Then onto bach and air on a g string that was fun to play. VanHalen - dont get me started on how much fun that is... Dont say you cant pick up a guitar and play anytypes of music.. TRIP my son...

Once someone tells me that metal is "just noise" I know straight away that they do not have a clue what their on about. Metal is proven to be the closest genre to Classical music. Now what does that tell you?

Metal is not consistant enough for my liking.. There is very little variation in the time keeping, strum patterns and such.. to simple.
Ive lost interest in talking to you now for the reason that it seems you are taking this to heart and you are not thinking locigly. Metal is in so sweet jesus way near classical.. Grow a brain my son, classical has a totally different style of play, which i studdied for 3 years in my carrier and eventually gave up due to lack of time to practise. There is no end to what you can play in classical, where as metal has little to vary.

Giblet

Red Ice I see where you're coming from, but you are being too general. I'm a classic rock kinda guitarist myself, and am into GNR, Jimi, Led Zep, Van Halen etc.

Metal is not the closest form to classical. Maybe jazz or something I would think, but there are forms of metal that do draw from much the same scales/modes and apreggios as alot of classical music. Its just classical music on acid really. But many of the bands being mentioned do not fall into that catergory.
And many cover it up with screaming and shouting.

Satanic references in music have been done to death, and it is indeed boring. And there are the patented chugg bands with the guitar tuned to open c, and the just play the one note with a constant (nagging) blast beat in the background, but there are just as many bands, abeit unheard of in the mainstream, that deal with complicated time sig changes, and atonal melodies which sound amazing, but again there are "other" things in the song which could annoy. Namely a leather clad singer try to take a dump while screaming into a mike.

The music you want to listen to has been done and it's still there. So listen to that instead. I'm sure if you looked you could find something that interests you from the past, present and future.

There are way too many facets in Rock/Metal to just pidgeon hole it into one type of music. Someone who likes Crosby, Stills and Nash might refer to them as rock, but someone who likes death spike blood goth speed melodic nordic grim metal, might also say the like "rock" music.

red_ice

well said giblet.

Someone (im my opinion) knows what they are on about. My views are a lil narrow minded, and your right when you said about my 'level'(?) or the degree at which i look at what they call 'rock'. It may be to heavy for me, not for others but the reason i say this is because a slurred/distorted voice is just stupid imo. Distortion is for guitars and maybe a bass..

Metal, is just a mad musicians attempt at music to me.

Mr.Applepie

Originally posted by red_ice
Metal, is just a mad musicians attempt at music to me.

Your just god's mad attempt at human(sorry couldnt resist )

I agree with you though. There seems to be a lot of bands around nowadays who just make noise rather then music. Too much distortion is a bad thing i say!

Pugsley

Reddy, what your talking about is the tripe mainstream stuff that has been flowing out in recent years, the mainstream rock/metal industry has as much variation as toilet roll, its truely dire. To find any decent metal recently, the band must be either over 10years old, or more or less totally unheard of. Almost all the bands I like are unheard of in the common world.
As for the skillessness, have a look at some of Dream Theatre's music, you wont see more skilled musicians in a new band for a very long time. Most bands these days use massive amounts of distortion and gain to make up for their severe lack of skill (and fail miserably), as for the screamy vocals, thats just opinion, In Flames and Arch Enemy both have screamy vocalists, but I like them both (however both bands rely more on guitarists than the vocals).

Drunk pirate

Screaming is just the same as hitting a high note. It takes allot of time and practice and is hard to hit notes. Some bands I've heard do it dreadfully. "Pin" for example.

Heavy distortion is good if it is used right. Meshuggah, At the Gates and Morbid angel all have mad heavy distortion (Especially Meshuggah) and they do not play same chords over and over again. Very complex and not spur of the moment crap.

Pugsly has a piont about new band allways failing to produce good music. I havn't listened to Dream theater (Accept for Mp3's) properly yet. Gotta hand it to them. Very artistic in thier songs.

Red Ice is fine in his music but fails to see good underground bands. Correct me if I'm wrong. Expand your horizons.

I've never come accross a band saying "666" (Besides Slipknot) to be honest. Refferences of "blood" and "imortallity" are missenterperated. They don't mean stabbing the **** out of the father who raped you or whatever. After a read of the lyrics some songs can really astound you...

Lemming

My apologies - I've not read all of this thread yet, but I'm gonna jump RIGHT in on top of red_ice's comments.

Originally posted by red_ice

Metal is not consistant enough for my liking.. There is very little variation in the time keeping, strum patterns and such.. to simple.

Yes, there is an element of that, most notably in Nu-Metal. Then again, have you tried playing classical music that constantly changed time-signature throughout a piece? Try playing a full symphony and having to do that ....

I could name myriad metal songs which change time-signatures during and then change back flawlessly. If you look to more main-stream music you will find that your above comments are more apt. What I've just said will make more sense after my next paragraph (I hope) as it will be the core of what I want to say.

Ive lost interest in talking to you now for the reason that it seems you are taking this to heart and you are not thinking locigly. Metal is in so sweet jesus way near classical.. Grow a brain my son, classical has a totally different style of play, which i studdied for 3 years in my carrier and eventually gave up due to lack of time to practise. There is no end to what you can play in classical, where as metal has little to vary.

Umm ... you might want to follow your own advice and stop talking with yourself too. You are talking through the exact same "anal passage" that you claim Pornapster is speaking. I rarely agree with him, but here I do believe he has a better grasp than you do.

If you look at the bands that Pornapster named, some of them have music that is consistently EXTREMELY similar to classical in form. More so than almost any other musical style.

Classical and metal are not so different in this instance. I will distinguish between the likes of Metallica (I think this band is probably the best of the more "mainstream" metal bands to use as an example) and the likes of SlipKnot. As a band called "Apocalyptica" proved ....... playing classical instruments (cellos).

There has also been FAR more experimentation in the metal scene than just about any other with regards classical music such as orchestral writings and operatic singing, etc, etc.

If you want to disagree with me, fair enough. But before you attempt to rubbish me as biased I'm sure that Pornapster and AngleWhore can testify as to my technical knowledge of classical music .......

As for the satanic crap, rock/metal i slike every other type of music. There's varying shades of it. TBH, I don't like quite a bit of it myself.

I would make a point in mentioning that I do not consider Metal to be the next closest thing to classical, but it isn't far off the mark when you look behind the decibel level (and assuming the band can write 'proper' formed music and not just hit a string randomly)

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by red_ice
Also the stupid names for bands that come associated with rock - 'tool' and the likes. I mean cmon, you would seriously want to be a ****ing tool to self proclaim that lable.

I think this paragraph perfectly emphasizes just how inept and superficial your arguement is.


As for 'Blood/evil/666' lyrics and the like, an example I could give on this would be certain 'Gore'-Metal bands like Cannibal Corpse, Necrophagia and so on. As much as dislike the genre, I can understand the appeal of the lyrics and such, but the funniest thing I find is that even the most devout fans dont take the lyrics seriously, and only people 'Looking in' seem to think that its in any way serious.

Despite the fact that I dislike that form of music, I think that in the music I listen to, the lyrics, however different, are still fantasy. Or at least somewhat fantasy, like Enlsaved, who would be a 'Viking Metal' band and like to sing about the ancient times and the gods of old.

So when Enslaved are singing about 'The Battle Of Lindisfarne' or some such, I really enjoy it. Same as when Immortal are singing about 'Battles In The North'...

I dont think that beleiving the lyrics, or even taking them in any way seriously, even comes into it.


Now, as for the whole 2 chords?
As far as I can see, all you have in mind are the 'pop' bands of the rock/metal world.

In fairness, I could go on for ages here, but Lemming and the likes have pointed out a lot.

I could give you a huge list of bands currently doing the rounds that dont "Scream" or use distorted vocals, but I doubt that is going to change your mind on the subject.

Personally, I like a vocalist who experiments with the sound of his own voice, and I think it's something that isn't half done enough. Of course, I cant stand the deep Death Metal growl, but there's plenty more 'distorted/experimental' styles out there that I do enjoy.

I think I've made my point now though.

Beruthiel

now red_ice, without getting technical, me not being technical an' all, it either appeals to your heart or it doesn't. There is nothing in this world like being in your gaf, listening to something like Metallica, for Whom the Bell Tolls up as loud as you can put it, it just insists that you jump around the room. I could name a stream of songs like this, it's just one of a very long list...........

cournioni

Originally posted by red_ice
Straight away i can tell you are talking form the anal passage.
All music is fun to find out on the guitar. the first time i played jonny bgood was a great feeling... beacuse it took me about a week to find out. Then onto bach and air on a g string that was fun to play. VanHalen - dont get me started on how much fun that is... Dont say you cant pick up a guitar and play anytypes of music.. TRIP my son...

Yeah, I guess you are a little right with that, but how about RnB and other genres that just use bass and drums. That is what I was on about when I was saying you cant do that in some genres of music. I find metal and classic rock the most desirable to play on the guitar. I haven't got a clue what you are into so I won't say anything. Still, you should try listening to some of the bands I have listed.

Metal is not consistant enough for my liking.. There is very little variation in the time keeping, strum patterns and such.. to simple.

Again, listen to the bands I've listed.

cournioni

Oh also! Try some Arch Enemy, some of their stuff is extremely technical with huge classical aspects to their guitar playing. I just find it great to listen to. The vocals may be a little dodgy but I must say that the music is just pure class!

And yes, Lemming more or less sumed everything up here. He knows his shít, you have to give credit where it is due.

Pugsley

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Oh also! Try some Arch Enemy, some of their stuff is extremely technical with huge classical aspects to their guitar playing.

Especially their song 'Ravenous', its downright brilliance

reigninblood

I dont think its gone crap its just that the market has been flooded because metal hit a commercial peak about a year ago. So evryone played some power chords, downtuned their guitars and screamed down a mic that they dont fit in. That crap will fade now because musics big commercial side is moving away from metal. It happenned in the 80's as well. For christ sake we had europes final countdown and anyone who could frizz their hair and wear spandex in the 80's and now we have to listen to Limp Bizkit Rollin with their backwards baseball caps and baggy trousers. Theres a cycle goin on if you can see it. Hopefully soon it will be about more complex music and proper metal. I strongly disagree with the TOOL critiscism though!

Sarky

There's a lot of people here that seem to think "simple" rock/metal is somehow bad. AC/DC, people. Just about everything except for the lead giutar is very simple and straightforward (I play the guitar quite badly but I can still manage some of their riffs)

That doesn't mean AC/DC are crap.

As for the "just noise" arguement, try Irom Maiden and Metallica, particularly songs like Maiden's Innocent Exile, Run To The Hills, The Sign Of The Cross, and The Thin Line Between Love and Hate, and Metallica's Unforgiven, Sandman, Fade to Black, and Welcome Home (Sanitarium) as well as the whole S&M album.
All very melodic stuff while still being heavy sounding. And this is to mention nothing about the newer bands out there (which others more knowledgable than myself have pointed out)

It appeals to me because it's powerful and honest. Good rock/metal lets you know that the musicians playing are enjoying what they do, just like other good music.

Red_ice, I fear you're a wee bit misinformed, but you said as much yourself. I suggest you go find some tunes that have been so far recommended, and then see if you still have the same opinion. I suspect you might change your mind at least a bit, and if you don't, then I don't care, it's your choice, and I'll just keep happily listening to Thunderstruck, thank you very much:)

Pugsley

Originally posted by Sarky
It appeals to me because it's powerful and honest. Good rock/metal lets you know that the musicians playing are enjoying what they do, just like other good music.

The problem arise's when you enter popularity, alot of bands these days are producing their music for the money, and play music as a job rather than a hobby which happens to be profitable. There are alot of bands now appearing (mainly on MTV/kerrang etc) who are only on the scene for the money, this problem has seriously grown now with manufactures nu-metal bands everywhere.

Sarky

Originally posted by Pugsley
The problem arise's when you enter popularity, alot of bands these days are producing their music for the money, and play music as a job rather than a hobby which happens to be profitable. There are alot of bands now appearing (mainly on MTV/kerrang etc) who are only on the scene for the money, this problem has seriously grown now with manufactures nu-metal bands everywhere.

And that's mainly why I dont' listen to them. Also, the vast majority aren't actually any good. As someone pointed out earlier, people seem to think they can just play a few power chords, scream a bit, and be a good metal band. What's worse is the legion of brainless monkeys that let them believe this by buying their crap.

Makaveli

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Yeah, I guess you are a little right with that, but how about RnB and other genres that just use bass and drums.

You've just done the same as red_ice by saying that. You cant just generalise. There are rnb artists that just use drum loops and what not but there are plenty that play their own music and have pretty much bands backing them. Remember, rnb stands for Rhythm and Blues. A lot of music falls under this category. It's not all Dru Hill and their ilk. What you are hearing is the pop rnb from the charts. Just like red_ice is talking about the more mainstream metal/rock.

Karl Hungus

Actually, Mak... I think you'll find that there's two different R'n'Bs out there; Rhythm And Blues, and Rhythm And Bass.

Makaveli

Hmm yeah good point, guess it's because I listen to the former that I don't pay too much attention to the latter.

[edit]Although, if you look at www.cdnow.com, it's R&B section includes both.[/edit]

Silverfish

Hi, im not a big fan of rock or metal. I just want to know what the big atttraction is to somehting that can only do one thing - give you a serious head ache when you listen to it.

I don't know. There was me, living my life, listening to what I want to listen to, and for the last 13 years at least its been mostly metal, from Metallica to Cannibal Corpse and Suffocation to Type O Negative and My Dying Bride or whatever.

But apparently my friends and I are people to be scorned because of this? Crikey.

I don't really give a damn about technique and variation, I just listen to what I like.
No-one has ever before questioned me or my sister on what we listen to, not even my parents, and sometimes (if we're in a bad enough mood) they've had to listen to it so loud that they're sitting downstairs trying to have a cup of tea while the sugar bowl works its way across the table.

When something is a matter of personal tastes, there's no real point in starting an argument, its just not possible to win. People will like what they like, and even if you can back up why they shouldn't with facts and statistics, they will still like it. Its the way we're wired.

There's a certain amount of elitism in Red Ice's posts, but music is music, whether its nature or nurture, tastes will always be different.

Metal gives some people headaches. Not me. I'm allergic to eggs, other people aren't. I hate dance music, some of my friends love it. We're all different.


Fin.

cournioni

Well said Silverfish.

hells angels

rock on \m/ \m/

Pugsley

Originally posted by Silverfish
No-one has ever before questioned me or my sister on what we listen to, not even my parents, and sometimes (if we're in a bad enough mood) they've had to listen to it so loud that they're sitting downstairs trying to have a cup of tea while the sugar bowl works its way across the table.

Damn thats loud, is that even possable?

Silverfish

Damn thats loud, is that even possable?

Apparently so, I don't know, I was upstairs using the hairdryer and listening to Heartwork.

Although: We were once listening to Pantera and trying to identify some point where it is rumoured a string broke or somesuch, we were in front of the stereo trying to hear it when there was a crash behind us.......the vibrations had caused the double window to fall out.

We were not popular that day, I can tell you.

Pugsley

rofl! do your ears still work?

cournioni

Originally posted by Silverfish
Although: We were once listening to Pantera and trying to identify some point where it is rumoured a string broke or somesuch

What song is that in? Thats the first I've heard of it.

Silverfish

What song is that in? Thats the first I've heard of it.

Its the first you've heard of it, because apparently its not true. I think it was Pantera anyway, the events that occurred immediately after the window smashing in the driveway made what we were listening to pale into insignificance.

rofl! do your ears still work?

Em, no. PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: Do not listen to very, very loud music, one day something in your ear will go 'PING!!'

Sarky

Moderation, people, that's the key. Every now and then, listen (or at least complain about the ponciness of) something quiet and mainstream.

You can listen to really loud music, but if you don't take breaks it'll royally screw your ears up.

Crucifix

I used to listen to music at a relatively low volume, appreciate the likes of "Walk" or "Master of Puppets" without needing my ribs to vibrate. Then one day I decided to slip the volume up a little, and now I can't freaking stop! I'm gonna have to find a cd player with a spinal tap-esque 11 volume setting soon enough.

cournioni

Metal sounds good when the volume is low... It sounds unbelievable when the volume is up! I mean I don't turn it up full blast the whole time, but when I do I let everyone know about it!

Silverfish

Well, I share a house with other girlies who are in no way into the same music as me, so I have to keep the volume low, unless I want to put on headphones and not hear them offering me tea and biccies.

When I'm in my car, I'm kinda nervous of not being able to hear sirens or my car squealing down the side of another car etc etc to have it too loud.

When I go home now, thats a different story. Thankfully, since the double glazing went in, there's less vibrations in windowframes. Although, I have to say, I have seen how loud music can really damage your ears, and it isn't actually the music(rawk!!), its the force of the vibrations (yay!!) causing yer ear drum to perforate (lovely).

Note: at loud gigs, wear earplugs.