how parents can prevent homosexuality...

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

http://www.family.org/pplace/newparent/a0023772.cfm

She hesitated, as if afraid to say the word. "He'll be gay. That's what you said. And to be honest, that's why I called you." Her voice began to quaver. "Doctor, will my son grow up gay?"

yellum

Oh ! Classic

HerrLipp

haha. As trekster said to me before "I didn't have a barbie doll as a child, I had an action man. Fair enough my action man didn't have any clothes..."

Actually a friend of mine told me before that his mother once found his brother wearing black nail varnish, and started crying because she thought he might be gay.

s10

i burst out laughing a few times. defo worth a read
nice1



"'The first order of business in being a man," according to psychoanalyst Robert Stoller, "is don't be a woman."

lol

lordsippa

but but but... do people actually believe this? and how much could we charge as admission if we managed to cage them and put them in some circus?

HerrLipp

unfortunately the article does have a strong authoritive tone. And some of the evidence looks sound. Although - "take your son into the shower with you, that'll turn him straight"

HerrLipp

kind of reminds me of the one where Homer took Bart out deerhunting

De Rebel

Originally posted by HerrLipp
Although - "take your son into the shower with you, that'll turn him straight"

"Meanwhile, the boy's father has to do his part. He can teach the toddler how to pound a wooden peg into a hole in a pegboard" That should straighten him up no end, all that practice for vaginal sex....

Seriously though, does anybody else find an article like that somewhat scarey? People actually believe this twaddle and feel strongly enough to promulgate it. If nothing else it reinforces the negative perceptions people have of being gay. It STARTS with an unwritten assumption that gay=wrong. I hate these craw thumpers for the damage they do to vulnerable people who swallow their drivel.

Shinji

I was convinced halfway through the first page that it was a satirical article. Sadly, by the end of the page, I realised that it wasn't.

I despise this kind of useless, pretentious psychobabble twaddle; not because of any apparent slight to homosexuals, but because of the two worrying concepts it introduces. First, parents who believe this stuff will damage their children massively by trying to act in such an interventionist way in their child's development; and secondly, this promotes the hugely damaging and hurtful concept that when a boy turns out to be homosexual, his parents are to blame because they did something "wrong". God knows I'm sure enough of you have experienced the grief of parents who feel that your sexual orientation is their "fault" without having some idiot with a white coat and a head full of bigotry reinforcing that ludicrous concept...

BuffyBot

Somedays, you just wonder why

Others I just laugh at them.

It STARTS with an unwritten assumption that gay=wrong. I hate these craw thumpers for the damage they do to vulnerable people who swallow their drivel.

Well said.

click here

www.narth.com

Dear god, these people exist...

Andor

NARTH, founded in 1992, is composed of psychiatrists, psychoanalytically informed psychologists, certified social workers, and other behavioral scientists, as well as laymen in fields such as law, religion, and education.


Its like they think by listing the kind of professions members occupy they somehow give credance to their ignorance. :rolleyes:

Kell

Sounds like that hospital show that Joey starred in in Friends. I cant believe that someone would pen a book with that title. Can they not be sued or something?

Gargamel

I don't think they can be sued actually, but somebody wrote a rebuttal which I've pasted below, if it's any comfort, I read some of the 'material' to my mum (who's a family therapist) and she was horrified. Apparently the governing body in Ireland considers this kind of (pseudo-Freudian) 'therapy' subversive and unethical. There you go, straight from the horses mouth. But these are Americans remember, and psychology was never a science, just a reflection of the attitudes of those who would set the standards we should unquestioningly live by These people are just capitalising on the fears of naiive parents in denial, it's an old story, they're not the first to advocate this type of 'therapy' and they won't be the last.

http://www.rikisensee.com/faq.html

STaN

The 3 primary arguments cited in the literature in favor of such a ban on reorientation therapies are
(a) homosexuality is no longer considered a mental illness
(b) those who request change do so because of internalized homophobia
(c) sexual orientation is immutable

The Authors of "Ethical Issues In Attempts To Ban Reorientation Therapies" (Mark A. Yarhouse, Psy.D. of Regent University and Warren Throckmorton, Ph.D. of Grove City College cited the following reasons in favour of reorientation therapies.

(a) respect for the autonomy and self-determination of persons
(b) respect for valuative frameworks, creeds, and religious values regarding the moral status of same-sex behavior
(c) service provision given the scientific evidence that efforts to change thoughts, behaviors, and feeling-based sexual orientation can be successful

Source: Psychotherapy: Theory/Research/Practice/Training, Vol. 39, No. 1, 66-75

I am in total agreement of the arguments in favour of a ban on such terapies and i think that the arguments for it are very weak, backward thinking and show no respect for human diversion or (possibly) evolution.

Also the fact they they can't change everyone proves that there is no sure way to make some1 change sexual preferance. I would argue that it is not even possible even if the person was willing (maybe under some very rare circumstances?)

If it was forced (through some genetic change or other) I could only imagine what would happen to that individual as a result of the change and how remembering acounts/fantasies/thoughts of a sexual nature while being gay would affect their new "straight" brain.

meglome

While it is true to say that some peoples sexuality can be quite ambiguous, this article is utter rubbish. It's hard to believe that people still believe this crap.

dendenz

Its nothing to do with weather we are religious or whatever, all it is is weather we ar straight, bi , gay or lesbian. Its all about attractions, in fact quite normal stuff

Zillah

"Sexual reorientation therapy." Sounds an awful lot like brain washing. People are idiots. I hereby forsake humanity to it's fate. Although the responses here do give me some hope...

Zillah

http://www.narth.com/docs/excerpt.html

This is hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. Here's a couple of quotes...

"In fact, he was already showing many signs of pre-homosexual behavior" - The boy is four, good god let me at these people, give me five minutes with them. No, anger is not the way, perhaps satire...

"contemptuous rejection of his athletic older brothers and the friends they brought home" - I actually feel ill reading this. It's like a quasi-scientific conformist brain washing guide. We are all deviants it would seem. Begone from mine eyes satan

Gargamel

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to let you know I made the fascists at the family website aware of our discussion and also made them aware of my feelings on their instruction to parents regarding this matter. Their response is below with my orginal mail to them below that again. The God Squad strikes again...

Response (Joshua Roberts) - 05/07/2003 11:53 AM
Thanks for your e-mail to Focus on the Family, David.

We have carefully read your feedback in response to statements made by Focus on
the Family regarding homosexuality. Although what we have to say is not always
popular in our morally-declining society, we have the freely-given right to do
so. We're afraid we will not change our beliefs or silence the expression of
our views simply because it's not politically correct to speak out against sin
and share the hope of sexual wholeness found only through Jesus Christ.

Some say that our views cannot be supported, or are even contradicted, by the
empirical sciences. But we assure you and others that our position is based
upon research that has explored the causes and documented the consequences of
homosexuality. Furthermore, we encourage anyone interested in this subject to
review the research for themselves rather than rely on the statements of any
organization. By way of a summary, allow us to present the following:

First, with regard to the disputed causes of homosexuality, in an article for
the _Archives of General Psychiatry_ that reviewed 135 research studies, prior
reviews, summaries, and books, the authors concluded the following:

* Recent studies postulate biologic factors as the primary basis for sexual
orientation. However, there is no evidence at present to substantiate a
biologic theory, just as there is no evidence to support any singular
psychosocial explanation.*

In other words, we simply do not know the causes of homosexuality. Moreover, we
must ask, if the continuing research does eventually reveal a biological basis
for sexual attraction to members of the same sex, would that mean it is good or
right? We don't think so. It has been postulated that behavioral patterns such
as schizophrenia and alcoholism have biological links, but no one claims that
they are healthy.

This leads to the second issue: Medical research * does* document the dangers
of the homosexual lifestyle. Studies found in the _Annals of Internal
Medicine_, _The Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine_, and _Sexually
Transmitted Diseases in Homosexual Men_ all reveal that activities such as anal
intercourse and "fisting" often lead to the breakdown of normal rectal functions
due to trauma to the anal sphincter muscle. According to the U.S. Department of
Health and Human Services, homosexual and bisexual men make up 61 percent of all
AIDS cases while making up approximately 2 percent of the population. And,
because of their high incidence among homosexuals, articles in _The New England
Journal of Medicine_, _American Family Medicine_, and _Gastroenterology_ use the
label "gay bowel syndrome" to describe a group of intestinal diseases resulting
from human fecal contact through oral-anal sex and oral sex following anal
intercourse. When these and other documented medical dangers of common
homosexual behaviors are combined with the high rates of promiscuity shown to be
present in the gay community, is it any wonder Focus on the Family identifies
this lifestyle as "dangerous?" Is sharing our alternative views really in "bad
taste" as you stated?

Third, decades of psychological research have shown that changing from a
homosexual to heterosexual orientation, while almost inevitably slow and
difficult, is certainly possible for many. The composite results of attempts to
treat homosexuality over the past fifty years as documented in journals such as
_The International Journal of Psychoanalysis_, _American Journal of Psychiatry_,
_Journal of Consulting Psychology_, and the _AMA Archives of Neurological
Psychiatry_ reveal an overall success rate of over 50 percent where success is
defined as "considerable" to "complete" change. This is especially significant
when one considers that most psychotherapists will allow that a 30 percent
success rate may be anticipated in the treatment of * any* condition.

Finally, we must not forget the very real moral consequences of homosexual
behaviors. Regardless of what science may or may not reveal regarding
homosexuality, each individual is still responsible for his or her moral
choices. As a Christian organization, Focus on the Family is committed to the
teaching of Scripture which is very clear in its condemnation of homosexual
conduct, for such a sin is a deviation from God's creation and design.

Again, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts; we hope this
response has given you better understanding of our perspective. For more on
this subject, we would like to send you several articles and our research brief
on homosexuality that cites many of the aforementioned studies. To receive this
material, send a return e-mail with your complete name and postal address and
request for items IR620 and FC024. We will be happy to send them to you. You
may also wish to obtain _Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth_ by Jeffrey
Satinover, M.D., and _Straight and Narrow? Compassion and Clarity in the
Homosexual Debate_ by Thomas E. Schmidt. May God grant you His wisdom and
direction in this and every area of your life.

Auto-Response - 05/05/2003 07:07 AM
Focus on the Family


Customer (David Murphy) - 05/05/2003 07:07 AM
It's been a while since I read such an article as this, which I found
terrifying. I found this article as the subject of a discussion board where (to
take an example of the reaction) 'Seriously though, does anybody else find an
article like that somewhat scary? People actually believe this twaddle and feel
strongly enough to promulgate it. If nothing else it reinforces the negative
perceptions people have of being gay. It STARTS with an unwritten assumption
that gay=wrong. I hate these craw thumpers for the damage they do to vulnerable
people who swallow their drivel' and 'but but but... do people actually believe
this?' As the child of a family therapist I find it shocking that a website set
up for families is encouraging parents to attempt to subvert their childrens'
sexual preference before they even know the meaning of the word. With refernce
also to your example, issues of gender identity crisis are VERY seperate from
that of homosexuality. The views I've seen expressed here are obviously those of
people who, while very educated, have completely failed to understand the issue.
Relationships are what make a family work, good healthy relationships between
parents and their children, and their childrens' partners in their adult life.
How dare you provide a textbook to naiive parents trying to avoid something they
haven't had a chance to understand? How dare you peddle this as legitimate
information when it is no more than a pathetic stab at a long discredited
Freudian theory? Gay people have families and are a part of families, it is
better not to attempt to subvert the childs' sexual growth, this would never be
an issue for a heterosexual child and not only that, the child will KNOW the
parents are worried about something, that they disapprove of something that, to
the child is totally intangible. Do you see my point? The damage you're causing
is untold! It's not your point of view I have an objection to, you're entitled
to it, but what you've done in making this seem legitimate is in extremely bad
taste. Parental denial of issues they don't wish to deal with is to be
discouraged for the benefit of the child. I can't believe your stupidity, you've
broken so many basic rules and whoever wrote this material which in its practice
tries to deny gay peoples' right to exist which is comparable to the worst
crimes against humanity, even if in a more subtle and insidious manner. It's
just so unethical. You make me sick.

Gargamel

I don't know if you're all bored with this yet, but I composed another reply in the last few minutes to Joshua, and that's teh last this girls writin' about this!


Dear Joshua,



Thank you for your response. Like I said initially, it's not your point of view I have an objection to, it's the fact that your presenting such an argument to parents of young children as a legitimate method of dealing with this issue. My family have very close ties with the counselling community here in Ireland, to whom I have shown your email, and they were very sad and disillusioned that any legitimate organisation could support such methods in dealing with this issue. The 'moral declination' you speak of makes me ask just whos' standards you're judging these children by. I am equally offended that you would use the name of God to support your biases with regard to this issue, and while faith and psychology can be reconciled in a beneficial way when treating a patient, one should certainly not dictate the
other. Psychology is not a true science, and is laced with cultural and social biases even unintentionally as the manner in which we judge acceptable behaviour very much depends on our own perspective. But the safety net, the guiding principle which we can't forget, is what is best for the patient is paramount. If they are homosexual, and there's no getting around it, I have myself to hold up as an example of someone who lives a good and decent life, is a productive member of society, has constructive relationships with people of the same sex and I am NOT alone. Parents have a right to introduce their beliefs and principles to a child, but that child is a person on their own path. What you've said is comparable to fascism, arguing your point and using the legitimacy of a DEITY to sound more credible. I would encourage you to read 'For Your Own Good' by Alice Miller, a valuable book on the damage that can be done to children by a perceived moral imperative. That is all I can say to you, you and all who subscribe to your views have my pity, and hopefully the pity of God.

Zillah

Firstly I resent homosexuality being grouped with schizophrenia and alcoholism and the implication that it is either as damaging or needs to be treated in a similar manner. Secondly homosexuality is found in all walks of life and a wide spectrum of people and therefore no behaviour can be linked to an entire group of such incredibly diverse people. A safe homosexual is no more likely to contract STDs than a safe straight person. As for claims of promiscuity in the gay community it is hardly surprising that homosexuals swap partners often, meaningful relationships a virtual impossibility for many because of close minded bigotry such as that expressed in the replies to the email. Finally I feel I should highlight a small point of hypocrisy - They claimed that even should there be a biological reason for homosexuality that did not make it right. Surely it is all part of God's plan (should any be so arrogant and foolish to believe they can decipher such) Condemnation of such a degree is always caused by the accusers own insecurities, those that feel God disaproves merely hide from their own issues further feeling safe in their righteous endorsement. If there is a God he is beyond any of us to concieve of and any who think that they speak in His name are fools and cowards

Gargamel

Hi

I got an information pack the other day from those guys! I requested one after my exciting (long-winded and polysyllabic? But that's me I'm describing, not my emails dear, I held back a little would you believe it) and I have to admit, I'm turned! I've seen the friggin light all last! I don't even know why I'm talkin on this feckin queer chatboard b'y, Lets face it guys, there's not much more to our lives now than bumming the odd confused chap and the occasional E to give us a chemical representation of the true love the breeders experience...

ah sure if you can't beat em, smash their fundamentalist heads in with a rusty blunted bread knife..

Karl Hungus

I've said it before on this board in jest, but now I say very, very seriously:

BAN THIS SICK FILTH!

Reading such unfounded drivel really does make my brain hurt. And the kind of people who are spouting said drivel are what is wrong with this world. Frankly, it is these Christian Fundementalist types who needs psychiatric threatment, borishly pointing to quotes to back up their downright wrong predjutices against what they deem to be "Morally Unhealthy."

Shinji

the occasional E to give us a chemical representation of the true love the breeders experience

So hang on... straight love is like being overcharged for water, your knob shrinking to sizes you haven't seen since you were 7 years old and then being unable to ejaculate for two days?

Sounds like an experience alright

Gargamel

Originally posted by Shinji
So hang on... straight love is like being overcharged for water, your knob shrinking to sizes you haven't seen since you were 7 years old and then being unable to ejaculate for two days?

Sounds like an experience alright

It's not the tiny willy and lack of jipping I was talking about! It's the love buzz.. jeez..

liam4mail

Reading that makes me want to ****ing cry.

Crash

Originally posted by De Rebel
"Meanwhile, the boy's father has to do his part. He can teach the toddler how to pound a wooden peg into a hole in a pegboard

pfft, don't they know the entire peg industry's gone gay?