True Story.

Xterminator

My wife was on the 220 from blanchardstown a few of weeks ago.

It was crowded and an immigrant lady went to board the bus with her child in her pram.

The bus man stopped her, and explained that because the bus was so full, she had to fold the prom, and take the child out.

So she took the child out, and got on the bus. The drive asked her 'are you getting the pram'?
And she replied (loudly) ' No, i'll just say it was stolen and get a new one off the clinic tomorrow.'

She actually left a practically new pram worth over €200 at the bus stop, as she reckoned it was easier to just get a new one from our welfare system, than to have to fold it, and stw it on the bus.'

I think the attitude of the above lady was disgraceful!

It is not indicative of all immigrants, but as I see the attitudes of some Irish people becoming racist, I think more needs to be done to tackle the imaage of these people as 'spongers'.

Perhaps if they were allowed to work, and if they were on the same housing lists, etc.
Also mandatory english language classes, for those without a basic written and oral skills, would help intregrate peopel nto our society.

What reactions do you have to that story?
What needs to be done?


X

DeVore

People become rascist when they extrapolate from a single point of data to *a* group that that person belongs to. Usually one that they *want* to cast a shadow over.

I note with interest (and this isnt a go at you, just an illustration) that you associate her actions with the immigrant group she belonged to.... why not slice it a different way and question the ethics of women (she was a woman after all).

I know what you are driving at, how do we help these people integrate into our society but the fact is that I've seen worse from the Irish here... I dunno if you can do much about it. Some people are just assholes.

DeV.

Xterminator

I guess you have a point, that the woman was cast as a immigrant, rather than a woman, or a left handed person, or some other sterotype.

To be honest, thats the way the story was relayed to me, and i just passed it on, but i see your point.

I dont know if its more typical of the working class, but I live in a very working class area, and I can visibly see the shift in attitude by some of those around me towards extreme prejudice.

I guess what worries me more, is that these would be some of the very best people i know, in every other way, not just 'assholes' who I would just dismiss.

One person i could use as an example would be a local community activist, who has spent years tirlessly working for the better of those in the local community and social justice.
Yet personal experiences from dealing with the {insert label of your own choice} 'immigrants' {/label} have soured her, to the extent that she views these people as a threat to our way of life.

When we lose people like that, then something is very wrong with the current system.

X

MiCr0

[following it off topic]
its awful what those people in blanch are doing these days........

DeVore

I meant more that *she* was an asshole.

Working class areas are bearing the brunt of the "invasion" of migrant workers. Its not surprising that they are the most resentful...

Its funny though how you dont hear people complaining when an Irish person is drawing the dole and working a nixer, or claiming compo from a fake injury etc. Then they are "pulling a stroke" or a "fast one".

DeV.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Kell

My slant on racism is that we are a country that is relatively new to en mass asylum seekers and need time to adjust our views on people seeking sanctuary in our country. I think it unfair that a lot of Irish people have been branded racist given the relatively short period of exposure we have had to these new comers.

There is the unsurprising side of it as well though. I, like a lot of other people have worked for quite some time, paid a whack load of tax, PRSI etc and on occasion where I have tried to claim what I thought I am paying for in tax, I realise I have been paying for diddley squat. Then refugee's come over with not a penny in their pocket, having never contributed to our system and can claim the same as what I have been paying for over the last x years. It is therefore, in my mind, not unsurprising that a bit of irritation would come to the fore. What Irish people should focus their negativity on though is the system that allows it not the people who take advantage of it.

What I really cant get my head around though is that the current exchequer has barely enough funds to look after the Irish needy, yet we are still processing and trying to house hundreds of refugees every week. I agree that these people should be allowed work in positions that can let them make healthy contributions to the system but I cant see how allowing them to claim social welfare and housig benefits etc can be healthy for an already unhealthy economy.

Lemming

Hmmm .. a couple of thingies spring to my mind.

Whilst I would like to see refugees be allowed to work et al. as mentioned by X, as soon as someone pays taxes, they can claim that since they are paying the state etc. then why should they be deported. So you've basically over-ridden the refugee process. On top of that, what about all of those who applied as valid migrants[1]. Where do you draw the line? I'm not saying that this is happening all the time but only a fool would deny that there are those in the asylum system who are abusing it for this reason.

What gets me mad though, is not that there are people who are refugees or have a different colour skin. That could be us tomorrow. What gets me is that many[2] of these people (90-something% a couple of years ago was the figure of those processed that did not fall under the UN charter on refugees according to the Dept.of Justice) are really migrants, yet are going about it in an underhand and deceitful manner. I'm expected to set them up comfortably in a new life, yet proper migrants are forced to jump through hoops. It's not fair on me, and it's not fair on those who have been honest about their intentions. More importantly, it hurts the real refugees the hardest.


[1] I am taking an example here that the refugee is in fact in reality a migrant and does not fall under the UN charter on refugees

[2] Many .. not "All", so leave any innuendos at the door please.

bonkey

Originally posted by Kell
I think it unfair that a lot of Irish people have been branded racist given the relatively short period of exposure we have had to these new comers.

I dont.

If a man started beating his wife shortly after getting married, how long would we have to wait before calling him a wife-beater?

Racism is a state of mind, perhaps a state of being. It can be changed. To say that many Irish are racist to some extent today (which is my own opinion) does not imply that any of them will remain as racists.

I would sincerely hope that the level of racism in Ireland will decrease as we - as a nation - become more "familiar" with an immigrant section in our population.

As relative newcomers to the immigration game, we have an incredible chance to get it right - to identify and try to stamp out the problems before they become a truly ingrained part of the nation's psyche.

I do not believe this can happen if we soft-word the problems in the first place.

jc

Talliesin

99% of all the assholes, con-artists, thugs, hooligans, philistines and incompetents that I have met have been white.

It's no doubt something about their being white. Maybe it's the culture, or maybe the lack of melanin does something to their moral development as children? Certainly both the nurture and nature sides of the debate on why white people suck have some valid points.

Kell

Originally posted by bonkey
If a man started beating his wife shortly after getting married, how long would we have to wait before calling him a wife-beater?

Yes but are we actually "racist" or merely intolerant, confused and píssed off?

I am intolerant of Irish people who abuse the system as well so what does that make me? Colour or country of origin personally doesnt come into it and I doubt it does for the majority of people who might otherwise be branded racist. A guy on the radio the other day had abuse hurled at him from all and sundry for being a racist when all he was pointing out was that the amount of refugee seekers in his town (Longford) had put a serious strain on resources to the detriment of nationals living there. He also pointed out that his point of view wasnt tainted by colour or creed yet all who called in branded him racist.

My point of view is that if the country werent in such dire straights and we were still riding the Celtic tiger for all she could give, I dont think we would have so many people píssed at the idea of having an influx of refugee seekers. Two long term non-nationals also called into that radio show mentioned and said that at the time when they arrived in the country they were welcomed with open arms. I really think that Irish people are thinking to themselves that if they cant get a job, healthcare etc fúck the idea of a non-national getting it either whatever their colour.

Victor

Originally posted by Xterminator
And she replied (loudly) ' No, i'll just say it was stolen and get a new one off the clinic tomorrow.'

I suspect the Community Welfare Officer won't take much of this type of behavior. Plus the mother will have to carry the child to the clinic.

EnigmasWhisper

It was crowded and an immigrant lady went to board the bus with her child in her pram.

Yes, the attitude of the woman was disgraceful, but no more than the disgraceful attitude of the guy living down my road receiving Social Welfare & happily driving around in a 4 x 4 with a 02 registration plate. I wonder would one be so quick to bother posting a board if the lady on the bus hadnt been an 'Immigrant Lady' but instead an 'Irish Lady' or a 'White lady'. Would we be quicker to get upset about an 'immigrant gentleman' sponging from the goverment claiming social welfare and driving a 4 x 4, or is the guy on my road just your typical Irish 'Chancer', ara sure best of luck to him if he can get away with it.

Perhaps if they were allowed to work, and if they were on the same housing lists, etc.

I assume when you say 'they' you are also including my friend with his 4 x 4 and the thousands more 'Irish ladies & gentlemen' whom are behaving disgracefuly.

I think more needs to be done to tackle the imaage of these people as 'spongers'.

Of course, I also assume that you are as equally concerned with tackling the image of the thousands of our own Irish born 'spongers' and that your good wife would be as quick to relay a story involving 'them' to you. It moving you so much that you would take the time to post your little story of 'them' here.

Having said all that, cultural incompatibility can look like racism and has many of the same symptoms, even if it’s not the same thing. Both can cause big problems and both can spawn ignorant behavior.

People draw their line in different places. Some people can’t tolerate any difference of opinion or lifestyle even when those differences don’t intrude into their own lives. For those people, problems with incompatibility crop up due to the simple existence of those differences. Other people enjoy and respect different cultures, with a live and let live philosophy. In their case, problems tend to crop up only when another culture intrudes into and threatens their own way of life.

No set of cultural traits that I can think of applies to any entire race, and indeed If I was relaying the story about the woman on the bus, I certainly wouldnt have referred to her as an 'immigrant lady', but perhaps I am just colour blind and an exception, but I doubt it.

For example, there are some groups and subsets of people who I might object to moving in next door, but my feelings would be based on their exhibited behavior and not their racial descent. If some group of people with whom I found myself culturally incompatible moved in next door…

Would I try to stop them coming in? Sure. For example, if these are people who believe terrorism is a valid political statement, that drive-by shootings are a valid part of business, that 'sponging' from the state is acceptable, or even just that the front yard is a good place to pile trash. Those behaviors change my ability to live my life the way I choose, either by putting my family in danger or just turning my air a foul odor and pulling down the value of my house or just pissing me off.

Move out myself? Yes, if I’m unsuccessful with the above, and I can still sell my damn house under those conditions.

Try to change them according to my own values? Sure. If for example my new neighbors believe in knocking on my door every day to convert me to their religion, I will do my best to convince them that my live and let live philosophy is better. Because at that point, their religious beliefs are intruding into my life.

Now if someone of a particular race moves in next door and you ASSUME that because they are 'immigrant' or 'black' therefore they believe in suicide bombings, are 'sponging' off the state, enjoy drive-by shootings, or will likely pile up trash……that is racism.

Xterminator

Enigma,

I started out tyring to quote the parts of your post that i felt i needed to respond too. There was just too much.

I would start out by say the reason i took the time to post this, is because i can personally say i have seen a radicalisation in peoples attitudes, concerning a group of poeple who i described as 'immigrants'.
(I used immigrant for want of a better word. (in one of my posts, i noted this was a label,) but i could not at the time think of a better phrase to explain my point. It is also the word most commonly used.)
This change in attitude really concerns me, because it is not just a few yobo's, but real people who i respect.

If is a fair point to ask, do i also have a problem with irish 'spongers'. One word answer. Yes. TBH skin color is not an issue with me personally!

Perhaps you dont know this, (or didnt pick up on my point) but refugees in particular, are not allowed to work, until there case is decided. this means they are forced to exist on 'welfare'. This has caused resentment, because this breeds the 'sponger ' perception.
If the lady in my example had to work to earn the few bob for a pram, there is no way she would have left it at a bus stop! I make this observation without reference to color, creed, or any other bias.

This is what i referred to, when i asked if the image of the immigrant peoples might be improved by allowing them to work.

X

Victor

If is a fair point to ask, do i also have a problem with irish 'spongers'.

Actually tax evasion costs the state much more than benefit fraud.

evie

Wow! What a lot of opinions! I'm going to start off with that ever popular saying...wait for it...here it comes....
"I'm not racist or anything but...!"
I'm really not!

Ireland is and has been called a youthful nation. We have been relatively untouched by other cultures because of our location and the fact that we are an island nation. Lets face it, we are nothing compared to the melting pot that is New York city! We're small and things can tend to pass us by. We are also known for our good nature and our thousand welcomes.

In the last couple of years, we have begun to see a few changes in Ireland. Changes in the right direction if you ask me! People from other countries have begun to arrive in Ireland. I think that's great, diversity is the key to educating oneself about others. Unfortunately, a lot of these new arrivals come from underdeveloped countries or countries in a state of war/famine, whatever. This means that these people don't have a lot of money when they come here. They look for anything they can get. Wouldn't you? You arrive in a different country, full of hope and looking for opportunity. You have finally got away from your very troubled nation, I, personally, would look for anything I could get!

Don't get me wrong. I'm not justifying that woman's behavior in any way. I don't know the situation and I don't know the woman in question. Her behavior, if we take it at face value, selfish and ungrateful. But, not every "immigrant" is like this. Think of it this way, our ancestors were once immigrants themselves. Most of them were out to look for their fortune..in an honest hardworking kind of way. I know a lot of these "immigrants" have been portrayed as money grabbing and selfish but as my Granny says "It takes a few bad apples.." Yes, some of these people are dishonest and not very pleasant but I think for the most part, these people are trying to make their way.

The government may be spending a lot of money on these people, is it not better to be spending it on them or a jet??!!

I think the government are going with the idea that these people will eventually start reaping rewards back to the state anyway. Once integrated, they should be earning wages and paying taxes like you and me.

Everybody has an opinion on this so I don't think we'll hear the end of it in the near future!