Broadband MAN Sceptics

thegills

I have seen a lot of negativity regarding the broadband MAN's and the recent launches by Mr. Aherne. The difference between these fibre rings and those already installed is that they are CARRIER-Neutral, meaning they do not belong to an operator. All previous rings funded by the government were installed and owned by operators.

Do you not think that Galway for example would commit 10% of e9M if it didn't think it was worthwile. The local authorities have put a lot of thought and effort into these rings and have designed them such that they link up with all fibre infrastructure in the catchment area as well as business parks, 3rd level institutes, population centres, operator switches etc.

For example, why wouldn't a company like LEAP offer wireless internet services in say Raheen Industrial Estate in Limerick. The reasons are that they have to rely on eircom or Esat for their backhaul which is too expensive and they have no sites in the estate. Who controls the planning process for new sites, the local authorities. All of the mobile operators need to sweat their assets and would willingly lease space on their towers in Raheen to LEAP. But howwill leap backhaul the traffic - the Limerick MAN has a fibre connection meters away from the tower. How will they backhaul from Limerick to Dublin - ESB, Aurora and CIE will be offering carrier-neutral fibre nationally very soon.

There are also numerous companies who have bought data centre assets in Dublin who have international capacity who want to light the national and MAN fibre and who will offer managed bandwidth backhaul services to the LEAP's of this world.

Comments appreciated

sceptre

I doubt anyone is complaining at the idea of actually laying fibre. Most of the comments about it seem to be centering on the government attitude of laying the cable, paying for it, doing nothing with it and having an attitude of "job done". If anything, Muck (for example) is annoyed that the damn thing is taking so long. Obviously the government can't make companies use the carrier-neutral fibre but they're not doing anything to encourage it either, meanwhile answering emails (to me at any rate) by teling me that the fibre has been laid and gee, isn't it wonderful - the island's wired.

I'm a little concerned at short government/civil service reports (to which I don't have a link at the moment but I'll find one) expressing a doubt that the fibre is worth laying at all as something better might be available in ten years. A conspiracy theorist might tie that to the relatively slow rollout of the fibre rings and come to the conclusion that there still isn't a commitment to the project. That attitude, if it ever existed, may have changed in more recent times however.

yellum

I was at the talk of the Cork MAN project and to be honest those that were the contracters and those that signed the contracts were pretty clueless. The rough idea of supplying their own ring is a good idea, but I believe that the ring will be run by a for profit company whenever that company is chosen in the near future.

They kept talking about the duopoly sharing the not sharing their rings around Cork (yes they have them) and so they were building this to be carrier neutral to save people money. They have a big list of companies favoured by the Cork Chambers of Commerce and the City Council that will be bed by this.

When some businessmen asked how they'd connect to this ring if they weren't the choden few the organisers didn't really know. They did keep mentioning one wireless isp that they were touting all night as being a solution.

When asked then how this carrier neutral fibre could connect to bandwidth in Dublin they suggested that they'd use the backbone of Eircom , the ESB and Esat. 2 of the 3 were the ppl that were expensive in Cork. I couldn't see the logic of companies connecting to each other in Cork, most need the net so the duopoly still wins plus they get a discounted subsidised fibre in Cork now too.

Also the MANs have been touted in the media as being ways to reduce home users monthly phone bill. What b.ollo.x Did you see the government and local councils going "Actually thats not true " They saw the hype, fed the hype and left the hype build and mutate.

spongebob

Originally posted by thegills

Do you not think that Galway for example would commit 10% of e9M if it didn't think it was worthwile. The local authorities have put a lot of thought and effort into these rings and have designed them such that they link up with all fibre infrastructure in the catchment area as well as business parks, 3rd level institutes, population centres, operator switches etc.

Comments appreciated

The same Galway county council, a notorious bunch of muppets when it comes to planning, are in this because it is largely free money, their 10% comes from the govt block grant anyway.

Planning in Galway is about pretending that they dont do section 4's anymore. True because there is a managers order in its place.

In the draft Galway county development plan, final in may 2003 until 2008 there is not a single planning objective that will get a single neutral duct in place anywhere in the county by then. Submission on area plans have had all ducting proposals removed before they were even configured. Yet, the whole thrust of the plan is to herd the population into some 10-15 towns and not build any more rural houses.

Galway corpo have some vague hope of doing something useful, their plan will be reviewed over the next year or so.

For example Galway Council will be putting in large scale regional water schemes between towns and water/sewage schemes in large towns. The whole of Loughrea will be dug up in the next 5 years water/sewage for example.

NOT ONE INCH of ducting will be added while the roads are open.

That is how they are failing to break the final mile monopoly.

Therefore the MAN is pointless, it does not come to a 'conclusion'you see.

M

SkepticOne

Originally posted by yellum
When asked then how this carrier neutral fibre could connect to bandwidth in Dublin they suggested that they'd use the backbone of Eircom , the ESB and Esat. 2 of the 3 were the ppl that were expensive in Cork. I couldn't see the logic of companies connecting to each other in Cork, most need the net so the duopoly still wins plus they get a discounted subsidised fibre in Cork now too.

But if there are 20 or thirty business connected up to this ring and one supplier is cheaper than the other two, how much business will the other two get if these if they can all switch to this cheaper one without the delay and expense of a new 'tail' to the network? This is why it is being opposed so strongly by Eircom and Esat.

I agree with the other comments about it not addressing the last mile, the hyping it up as a solution to monthly bills, general cluenessness of the press etc.

spongebob

it is of great benefit to the councils themselves who can run 1000base Ethernet all around the town from office to office on their MAN's on the cheap .

thegills

Perhaps I am being over optimistic. I work on the Limerick MAN project and our aim all along has been to provide affordable carrier neutral to business.

Fair enough we are reliant on ESB and Aurora to provide the backhaul back to Dublin, but as I mentioned earlier there are companies who own data centres in Dublin who are on the verge of signing deals with ESB and Aurora and who will light their fibre probably with DWDM. These companies thru' their data centres have international access and connect to all of the fibre rings in Dublin. They have little O/H's as they bought their assets for next to nothing.

The ESB national network also connects to the majority of the MAN's.

As regards something better being in place in 10 years it is widely acceptable that only fibre can deliver whatever services the future may hold. If some other medium is invented then the metro's can carry these media in their empty sub-ducts. The cost of the fibre itself is minimal in comparison to the civil works. My team visited Stokab in Sweden last year. They set out on the same path 5 years ago and now have 4000km of fibre in Stockholm. Admittedly their governmnet has commited e1Bn as opposed to our measily e65m (new government jet is e50m!!!)

As regards advertising the product the DCMNR will be tendering for a Managament Services Entity (MSE) soon. Each metro ring will be leased to the MSE. The charges will be set by the DCMNR and the LA's. The MSE will market the products and manage the rings. The idea is that with prices being set equal everywhere, no region can offer cheaper products than the next.

We are also addressing the last mile issue, but any provider we have spoken to has said, 'come back when the fibre is in place'. So we will. The local authorities and Shannon Development are also looking at leasing space on their buildings to wireless OLO's to facilitate last mile services. That means all of the business parks as well as major buildings around the city. Our fibre ring has been designed to connect to all of these buildings as well as mobile operator towers.

spongebob

Originally posted by thegills
Perhaps I am being over optimistic. I work on the Limerick MAN project and our aim all along has been to provide affordable carrier neutral to business.

Throwing some stuff in the air to get feedback is a damn fine idea. Congratulations to all and well wear in Limerick.

My core scepticism is roughly as follows.

1. O'Rourke announces a 67 town fibre ring project in March 2002
2. This is pared back to 19 by December 2002 ....once Ahern has oversight that is.
3. Each of the 19 local projects is left to feel its own way through its own project.
4. Not a single one of the 19 Local Authorities has (to my knowledge) taken any steps to ensure that future local ducting in housing and industrial estates will be installed on a carrier neutral basis...certainly this is the case in the Galway County Council area.
5. Limerick is the only Authority that seems to have Properly considered bandwidth aggregation on the backhaul and yet ity may be out of your hands because.....
6. ......I Never heard of the DCMNR Management Services Entity (MSE) until now. While an OK idea in principle it strikes me as an excercise in re-inventing the wheel. BTW Is this MSE the infamous "National Broadband Network" that has been extensively pimped in speeches by O'Rourke and Ahern. It also strikes me that that it will prevent the ESB and Aurora(Gas) from having to bid extensively against each other for business on their unlit networks.
7. Finally,

The charges will be set by the DCMNR and the LA's

sounds like a great idea for a committee.....Uh Oh!

It certainly does not sound like something that will make Ericom sleep badly.

I did addresss the County Development plan deficit in other posts in the past.

M

thegills

Muck;

1. & 2. It would be fair to say that every budget has been slashed except for the ministers air travel budget. The 19 towns selected was on the basis of population.
3. This is not true. The DCMNR have contracted 2 consultancy companies to manage the grant agreement and all the technical details. Most of the documentation; tenders, technical specifications has been supplied centrally. The purpose is that every metro uses the same tenders and the infrastructure installed is standard. The DCMNR have also centrally procured the equipment (duct, fibre, chambers, etc.) so that the price price was recieved.
4. I can't answer for the other LA's but in Limerick we have utilised the new N7, Main Drainage, City Centre upgrade strategy and any road project available. As regards new developments the LA's are now pushing for the inclusion of ducting. We have been contacted by a number of housing developers to see where the chambers are located on our MAN.
5. Limerick has had a strategy for about 3 years now. The MAN is part of the jigsaw. Other parts of the strategy include Dublin - Limerick connectivity, last mile initiatives and getting an international POP in Limerick.
6. The MSE will be a private entity. The LA's will agree a price for leasing the MAN to the MSE. The MSE will charge rates fixed by the DCMNR and the LA. The MSE will handle the SLA's with the OLO"s and they will maintain the infrastructure.
7. We are confident that as a worst case the infrastructure will be installed and if never used at least it will force the dupoloy to decrease its prices. However we have letters of support from numerous OLO's in Ireland and abroad.

Hornet

Originally posted by thegills
I have seen a lot of negativity regarding the broadband MAN's and the recent launches by Mr. Aherne. The difference between these fibre rings and those already installed is that they are CARRIER-Neutral, meaning they do not belong to an operator. All previous rings funded by the government were installed and owned by operators.

There is no question about the advantages of a carrier neutral infrastructure being available in areas where it makes sense. Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and maybe 3-4 more cities in the whole country are locations where it probably does make sense. But that leaves another (19-(4+3)=12) 12 fibre rings in places where it is ridiculous to waste that money. (Gweedore is my favourite example, but we could add Carlow and more to the list.)

BTW: The criticism regarding Ahern's launches was not about the fact that the press is informed about the start of a building project. It is about the presentation of pure infrastructure projects as "Broadband Internet is now available"-announcements. Additionally it is about the uncountable launches of the same project WELL before the first bit goes across the fibre.

Do you not think that Galway for example would commit 10% of e9M if it didn't think it was worthwile.

10% is not a lot if you can get 90% for free! [Someone should offer that for mortgages! ] But in my opinion there is another driving factor behind it as well: Currently it seems that every Local Authority in Ireland fancies themselves as a Telco. Maybe not as a Telecommunications Service Provider initially, but at least as a profit making carrier's carrier. But in time - we saw the announcement of Dublin City yesterday - they all think they could rake in the big money by offering managed services as well. So the altruistic nature of the 10% investment is very doubtful.

The local authorities have put a lot of thought and effort into these rings and have designed them such that they link up with all fibre infrastructure in the catchment area as well as business parks, 3rd level institutes, population centres, operator switches etc.

This is probably/hopefully the case for the loal authorities in the handful of towns where a fibre ring does make sense. But where are the business parks in Gweedore and the 3rd level institutes? Where is the justification for Motorway's around a village in the back of beyonds?

For example, why wouldn't a company like LEAP offer wireless internet services in say Raheen Industrial Estate in Limerick. The reasons are that they have to rely on eircom or Esat for their backhaul which is too expensive and they have no sites in the estate. [...] But howwill leap backhaul the traffic - the Limerick MAN has a fibre connection meters away from the tower. How will they backhaul from Limerick to Dublin - ESB, Aurora and CIE will be offering carrier-neutral fibre nationally very soon.

Mentioning CIE in the context of national fibre networks is maybe a bit too optimistic. The uncompleted network consisting of a handful of old-type fibre optic cable won't help much.

Aurora's network and their plans are impressive. Aurora seems to see itself as a pure carrier's carrier (with competitive prices) and is therefore an interesting partner for Telcos. ESB's network and plans are very interesting as well, but ESB's schizophrenic personality (a carrier's carrier who wants to offer managed services to end customers as well) and their extremely high prices reduces their attractiveness significantly.

Still, there is no doubt, that the alternatives provided by the utilities change the landscape significantly in a positive way. Without them NO local fibre ring would fly!

There are also numerous companies who have bought data centre assets in Dublin who have international capacity who want to light the national and MAN fibre and who will offer managed bandwidth backhaul services to the LEAP's of this world.

Hmmm, I think I know who you are talking about and I would look twice before I would bet money on it, but that's my own opinion... As far as I know, there is only ONE company that has bought data centre assets AND owns international capacity and they would not want to offer managed services. All other companies don't OWN international capacity, instead they can connect to international service providers who are co-located in their data centre facility. Semantics, I know, but let's not mix things up.

-Hornet

spongebob

The comment that Limerick has been planning this for 3 years or more kinda sez it all. It seems that Limerick may be in a position to leverage the Fibre Ring when it is finished...seeing as they saw it coming and planned for it some 2 years before the O'Rourke announcement. I am delighted to hear this and wish ye all well. Galway did no such thing.

Other towns on the list such as Manorhamilton and Roscommon have no chance of leveraging it becuase of size (under 4000 people each) not that they have chaged the planning regulations to ensure that proper ducting is a long term local authority asset that will be taken in charge along with roads and sewers and added to the public stock of investment.

Gweedore has a large industrial estate at least.

M

Hornet

Originally posted by thegills
As regards advertising the product the DCMNR will be tendering for a Managament Services Entity (MSE) soon. Each metro ring will be leased to the MSE. The charges will be set by the DCMNR and the LA's. The MSE will market the products and manage the rings. The idea is that with prices being set equal everywhere, no region can offer cheaper products than the next.

I see you are FULLY subscribing to the "competition is good for the customer"-idea!

Did people in the Dept. of Comms go to the Eircom-school of competiton? I expect you don't expect competiton between Aurora and ESB then!

If no region can offer cheaper than the next, providing services to Gweedore will be a lot more expensive to an alternate operator than providing services in Limerick. This is based on the assumption that he will be able to pick more customers up in Limerick than in Gweedore.

I see a BIG problem with the MSE:
There is only a limited number of carriers in Ireland and this number will always stay relatively low. With DWDM and other technologies, each carrier can live with quite a small number of fibres for a large number of customers. The MSE is a for-profit organisation which has to maintain itself and pay profit to the Local Authority and cover the build cost. With many profit takers, but not too many customers, they have to charge relatively high prices to the carriers. Will the MSE be able to walk this thin line between competiton-enablers and profit-makers?

-Hornet

Hornet

Originally posted by Muck
Other towns on the list such as Manorhamilton and Roscommon have no chance of leveraging it becuase of size (under 4000 people each)
[...]
Gweedore has a large industrial estate at least.

Muck, should I give Gweedore a rest and use Manorhamilton in my examples?

Any idea how large "large" is and what type of industries there are in Gweedore?

-Hornet

spongebob

One other problem Hornet.


The DWDM fibre is also known as multiu mode. It can support Gigabit Etherent too, at costs as low as €2000 (Two Thousand) per end.

DWDM kit will cost a fortune per end. Overkill as the song sez ....on a MAN basis that is. DWDM is great for long distance transmission unlike Gigabit Ethernet.

M

spongebob

Originally posted by Hornet
Muck, should I give Gweedore a rest and use Manorhamilton in my examples?

Any idea how large "large" is and what type of industries there are in Gweedore?

-Hornet

Bunbeg Industrial Estate employed over 2000 at the peak of the boom, this has now dropped below 1000 . Gweedore is 3 towns in a cluster, Bunbeg Falcarra and Gortahork I think are the 3.

Manorhamilton has no industrial estate (maybe there is a hidden one) and a population of 1,500 or so ISTR

Yet it made the original Fibre ring list of 19 Here a year back. It is a county town.

M

Hornet

Originally posted by Muck
One other problem Hornet.

The DWDM fibre is also known as multiu mode. It can support Gigabit Etherent too, at costs as low as €2000 (Two Thousand) per end.

DWDM kit will cost a fortune per end. Overkill as the song sez ....on a MAN basis that is. DWDM is great for long distance transmission unlike Gigabit Ethernet.

Well, for a project like this, you wouldn't use Multimode Fibre, instead SingleMode Fibre (hopefully with at least 144 cores per cable) is the only type that makes sense for most telcos or service providers.

I guess the EUR 2000 you are quoting is for a low-priced GigE switch? If you want to provide carrier-class services, you would probably go for a device somewhere between LAN GigE switch and legacy carrier equipment. A bit more expensive than EU4000, but still reasonable.

DWDM on a MAN ring does make sense if the individual fibre pairs are expensive. Depending on the price the MSE will charge, it could be cheaper to buy expensive equipment rather than expensive fibre pairs. If the fibre pairs are not outragously priced, you are absolutely right, DWDM would then not make sense.

-Hornet

spongebob

thanks for that clarification.

If the projects are all to a standard national spec I would be interested in finding out what is being provisioned on each MAN ....in the bigger towns anyway.

is it a mix of Telecoms grade (single mode as you say Hornet) and Ethernet multimode fibre.

how many pairs of each ?

I ask because the cable cost is nothing compared to the trenching cost. Once the hole is dug and ducted you have incurred the bulk of the cost. The fibre, even in 144 pair runs, would account for c 10-15% of the overall cost per Metre.

M

thegills

10% is not a lot if you can get 90% for free

e900k is a lot for a Local Authority.

every Local Authority in Ireland fancies themselves as a Telco

Not really, thats why Limerick hired me!!

Maybe not as a Telecommunications Service Provider initially, but at least as a profit making carrier's carrier

This is not the case. The local authorities are only seeking enough profit to cover operating costs and money for building drop connections out to new customers.

I expect you don't expect competiton between Aurora and ESB then

Not really. Both are in close contact with each other regarding issues such as resilience.

There is only a limited number of carriers in Ireland and this number will always stay relatively low

Not entirely true. In Sweden after 5 years they have 45+ carriers.

Mentioning CIE in the context of national fibre networks is maybe a bit too optimistic

When the ESAT rollout was being done, CIE installed their own ducting system equipd with 12-pair fibre. It's not as expansive as Esat's but expansive nonetheless. The fibre may be old, but it's not too expensive to install newer fibre once the ducting is in place.

As far as I know, there is only ONE company that has bought data centre assets AND owns international capacity and they would not want to offer managed services

There has been a lot of activity recently and both 360Networks and Worldports assets have been purchased. Agreed that only 360Network has internationl capacity but most of the data centres are connected into this capacity. Limerick has met some parties who will light the fibre with DWDM but offer E1 up to STM-1 pipes to other carriers or large companies (Dell, etc.)

spongebob

....any chance you could come to Galway to give a masterclass on this ?

thegills

Galway have taken an approach that gives a lot of responsability to their consultants. Limerick have adopted a different approach and have kept a lot of the process internally, the result being a defined strategy, cheaper external consultancy costs and the best value per meter of all the MAN's (at least 50%) than any other MAN.

The fibre details are; Single mode, G.652, 96-pair.

spongebob

Originally posted by thegills
Galway have taken an approach that gives a lot of responsability to their consultants.

I think I know what that means.

Overpaid consultants from Dublin spec this n that, nobody in Galway understands a word of it so they must be great lads.

Fibre fecked in ground eventually (by this time next year I understand)

Consultants feck off back to Dublin or further afield.

Nobody in GALWAY 'knows' anything about it, same as now

Therefore it gets very little use and is left in the 'capable' hands of the mysterious 'MSE'

Humm

M