What is an illegal download?

Evil Phil

After downloading a very upsetting mpg today (I know some of you did the same) I've been left wondering if I broke the law? The film in question shows the em... 'execution' of a soldier. We were warned before hand too.

Don't ask me for a link you won't get one*

Is this illegal? I'm not sure but now I'm wondering what is illegal. Its against the law to import normal pornography** into Ireland so there for it must be illegal to download it. The contents of rotten.com too, what this story with this?

Now I know if you don't like it don't look at it applies but some of the stuff on rotten.com doesn't depict willing participants. Neither did the mpg I've mentioned - if its not illegal should it be?

I can't make up my mind so hopefully some discussion will help.

* Actually I'll to ask the Mods not to allow a link to it
** Normal in the sense of only consenting adults participating

KdjaCL

As far as im concerned the only type of illegal downlaod is software/movie piracy.

The rest ie that soldier if its copyright allowws it to be downloaded then its fine i choose to download then i can.
Same with rotten i think they have all the photographers permission so you can view /download those pics.

Whether your boss approves is a different story but to me its fine.


kdjac

Gordon

How do you know if it is copyrighted though? One can go onto a p2p file share program and download any movie be they newly released or old and there is no mention of copyright surely.

As for other illegals - child porn would be illegal surely as it is illegal to hold such stuff on ones computer. But that said - isn't porn illegal in Ireland in general? I dunno. (of course, I wouldn't know about nakey porn)

KdjaCL

How do you know if it is copyrighted though? One can go onto a p2p file share program and download any movie be they newly released or old and there is no mention of copyright surely.

I would imagine only a fool would think they werent downloading illegal movies. And that it was ok to do so.


kdjac

Gordon

Originally posted by KdjaC
I would imagine only a fool would think they werent downloading illegal movies. And that it was ok to do so.
kdjac

ehh, no sorry but imagine you are young (;)) and imagine that you have downloaded a fileshare program and you type in a film that you want to see, lo and behold its there for download. what are you going to think "oh it must be pirate". You're going to download it, simple as that.

either young or computer illiterate, lets be honest there are people out there that don't have a clue about piracy and the net etc etc.

Evil Phil

Ok besides the copy writes on such material what is the nature of decency laws in Ireland. Sure downloading Lord of the Rings on p2p is illegal but is buying access to a pornsite and viewing the contents breaking any laws?

KdjaCL

Gordon
Whether they know or not its still illegal ,in keeping with the 1st post its an illegal file.

Phil
No its not once you are legally over the age of 18 you can view porn.
You are paying for it .
Unless you know some free sites PM me if you do

kdjac

Victor

The shooting of the soldier is presumably documentary footage, which generally isn't subject to censorship laws. That said, it just might be considered obscene. I haven't looked at it myself. If money was involved, it might take on a whole new interpretation. Child porn of any kind, including cartoons is a big no-no.

If it's Playboy type stuff you are generally OK - previous discussion here. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74664

daveirl

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Moriarty

Originally posted by Victor
The shooting of the soldier is presumably documentary footage, which generally isn't subject to censorship laws. That said, it just might be considered obscene. I haven't looked at it myself.

If its the same mpg (and it sounds very like it) that i pasted into #fortress.ie/#boards.ie (cant remember which) about 6 months ago with a massive warning not to watch if anyway squeamish, its not just a soldier getting shot.

Dont look if your squeamish.. (outline of mpg)

Its a video of a group of (chechans/russians) parading a (russian/chechan) in front of the camera on a snowy wooded hill, then sitting on his back and stabbing him through the neck. They then proceed to saw through his neck with a combat knife while hes still alive.. you can hear gurgling/attempted screaming from the bloke thats getting done. All rather graphic, in a 'home movie' style (think 1 cheapish video camera with the picture shaking).

Now, i dont really think it should be illegal. I dont like the idea of censorship in general - im an adult and i can decide for myself if i want to watch something or not. I dont think anyone is more qualified than i am to make that decision. Saying that, i dont see many people wanting to watch this sort of stuff. Its all pretty graphic and disturbing. Outlawing something invariably leads to increased intrest in it.

Clintons Cat

Its a huge grey area of Obscenity laws,
For example C4 recently showed smuggled footage of a public beheading in saudi arabia.
News companies have also broadcast footage of a woman being hacked to death in the rwanda genocide,the aftermath of the lynchings of two israeli reservists in the PA,the corpses of American airmen being dragged through the streets of somalia.
And footage from the aftermath of the Highway from hell at the end of the Gulf War.The Twin towers collapsing live on air.The liberation of concentration camps.
All of those images could be considered obscene,they are all an affront to human decency.
But should it be a crime to veiw it without the consent of the state media?

The Corinthian

Obscenity laws are a bit fscked up, last time I checked. In the case of pornography, material was banned, and hence considered illegal, a few years ago if there was an official complaint (that’s how the Madonna ‘book’ got banned - that and it was dreadful). The law was remarkably archaic with regard to what constituted obscene.

Child pornography is very much illegal, to the point that even accidentally downloading it is a criminal offence, but this is as a result of this rather emotive issue being very topical and the law being accordingly beefed up to deal with it. The same goes for copyrighted material, being of commercial interest although less emotive (to some).

Snuff, which is in effect what Phil downloaded, is probably and ironically legal to download (don’t quote me on this, I’m just guessing) as no laws have specifically been passed against it and, not being child pornography or copyrighted material, it is not considered a major problem. A lawyer would have to dispel/confirm this though.

Whether it should be illegal, the answer is more clear-cut - yes. As with child pornography, allowing free trade of such material, especially when money begins to change hands, creates a market for it. What was described was an opportunistic home movie, where the victim would have died with or without being filmed - give snuff a market and such material will be created specifically for it.

Bard

The one I saw was, I'm sure, the same one as EvilPhil - as I recall there were very few stomachs left unturned on the channel that day and practically everyone was wishing they hadn't viewed it.

It was fairly gruesome. As regards, though, whether it should be illegal or not, I find it hard to say... but erring on the side of caution, if I was forced to say yes or no - I'd say Yes, make it illegal.


[edit]: spoiler chopped out, - I'll leave the gory descriptions to someone else...

Clintons Cat

once you start controlling what people can or can not see,Especially when it comes to war footage you start running into real trouble.

One of the most disturbing images of the Vietnam War featured a Naked child clearly in distress running down the road after a Napalm attack with her back burnt off.
Its broadcast was one of the pivotal moments in galvanising public revulsion at such images into peaceful protest against the War.

Would such footage of civillian casualties of war be Shown today?
I cant remember seeing a single image of an afgani civillian casualty being broadcast during the war,a few sanitised shots inside hospitals perhaps,.

Bard

Originally posted by Clintons Cat
Would such footage be Shown today?

probably...

however the footage that Evil Phil is referring to is, I believe, considerably more offensive than the photo of Phan Thi Kim Phuc to which you are referring (more info - the photo, and more info)

mind you, Im against censorship myself - I just said that if I were pushed to make a decision one way or the other, I'd say make it illegal... to be honest, I'm one of the many "undecided".

Clintons Cat

I dont really have a problem with the POW image,
Apart from the fact it has become devoid of context.
Is it any more shocking than footage that came out of Bosnia of whole families huddled together burnt to death in their houses?

Is veiwing of such an act really an obsenity?

Or is the Act itself the real obscenity?

Xterminator

I dont think the act of viewing/downloading or distributing such material should be illegal.

In fact such scenes can galvanise public opinion, so that genocides can be stopped and the proponents brought to justice.
After all the Vietnam images stopped a war, and the images from the balkans have ensured the likes of Milosovitch are being tried in the Hague.

However I think a law prohibiting the sale or purchase of such films for money would be wise. I think its replusive someone should seek to make money from distributing such material, and also if you created a market, there is the possibilty sick persons would manuafacture 'snuff movies' just for the profits distributing such material might bring.

Just my 2 cents.

X

The Gopher

I am not sure about the law stance exactly but I think in the UK it is illegal to transmit(and possibly recieve)"obscene"material,as well as child porn obviously and rightfully enough.
But the title of what is and is not obscene is debateable.Technically I think they can prosecute something they believe is obscene,and you must defend yourself by persuading the jury that the material is between consenting adults and so is not obscene etc.
So as you can see the obscenity law can concern personal opinions.
I suppose obscenity laws could possibly be used against somebody for downloading explicit footage of somebody being killed,but TBH I think the Gardai are more interested in catching online paedophiles than raiding your house because you like to look at nakey ladies licking each other.
And sure with all the music channels screening a video of 14 year old lesbians in uniforms kissing god knows how blurry the line is getting.I would think that there would soon be EU law introduced saying what can and cannot be viewed in more precise.

For more info check out this great site(British site)about the ins and outs of censorship and so on
www.melonfarmers.co.uk

Evil Phil

The video I'm referring to is the Russian/Chechnyan being decapated. **** has a good point, the victim would have died anyway - he didn't die on for the camera. I suppose it brings home, for me, the obscenity of war. No I don't think it should be illegal - show that on BBC world and the anti war movment could succeed. Murder someone for a profit, yeah - no doubt about it.

Some people have downloaded that, and more, just for kicks. Like the log of the kid who killed himself on IRC recently. This... well it is impossible to control. So its really up to the individual to ask themselves "How decent a human being am I?". Not always an easy question to ask - I downloaded the soldier mpg because I was told it was so shocking.

daveirl

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Mercury_Tilt

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Winters

Was it a Chechnyan or Russian in the footage? And who was doign the, well 'cutting'? Russians or Chechnyans? Thoese are questions i doubt you can answer but i ask anywhy.

Yea, not too nice to watch but i was warned. You wonder why they have to cut his neck off, i guess its to make an example of him to others. Though, didnt the Brits try that back in 1916 and it failed .

Blitzkrieger

Originally posted by The Gopher

And sure with all the music channels screening a video of 14 year old lesbians in uniforms kissing god knows how blurry the line is getting.

[off-topic]gawd that's a **** song. How desperate do they think we are?[off-topic]

popinfresh

There's a video of a man jumping out of the WTC and landing right in front of the camera going around on kAzaa. It's very disturbing but images like this show us the reality of wars..

Victor

Originally posted by daveirl
Anything that shows the horror of war like it is and not the CNN sanitised version should be commended no?

War or war crime (it is illegal to kill prisoners)?

Originally posted by popinfresh
There's a video of a man jumping out of the WTC and landing right in front of the camera going around on kAzaa.

Whatever about the images of people jumping (it brings home to you how desparate the situation is), should the images of people "landing" (what word does one use?) be available? Perhaps we should ask "does this image serve any useful purpose?" Does it dignify the people involve? Was it Shinji said about porn "between consenting adults" - there is no consent from a murder / suicide victim.

Originally posted by popinfresh
It's very disturbing but images like this show us the reality of wars..

The attack on the WTC wasn't "war".

There was footage of an SUV in a police chase TV program being hit by a train. The SUV ended up being 18 inches wide. It was shocking footage and it makes me think "do I want to watch this type of program again?", but it certainly brings across the message "the train always wins".

davej

Photographs of the reality of war linked in this thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84848

davej

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Victor
The attack on the WTC wasn't "war".

Such definitions are pointless. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Neither you nor I will decide on whether the attack on the WTC was war or terrorism, or that Auschwitz was genocide, while Dresden or Hiroshima were heroism, or that Iraq should be liberated or invaded or left alone.

History will decide this. And we both know who gets to write that don’t we?

Shinji

Hang on, Corinthian - the man might have a point. After all, history is written by Victors.... *groan*


Anyway....

I don't believe that material such as that described by the original poster should be illegal. This isn't porn. People don't get off on this stuff. It's effectively documentary footage; if it's illegal to download, should it also be illegal to show in a documentary about war? Should footage of the Hillsborough disaster, the Vietnam war, or atrocities in Palestine be destroyed? Should we burn pictures of concentration camps and killing fields?

Of course not. There are unpleasant things in the world, and banning the viewing of such things is just sticking your head in the sand. It doesn't make atrocities go away, it just makes you more ignorant.


(Quick point, by the way - someone mentioned cartoon/animated porn in an earlier post. Actually, in Britain at least, this isn't illegal, since it doesn't depict real people therefore it's not covered by any obscenity laws.)

Victor

Originally posted by Shinji
someone mentioned cartoon/animated porn in an earlier post. Actually, in Britain at least, this isn't illegal, since it doesn't depict real people therefore it's not covered by any obscenity laws.

The animated depiction of children in porn (the example given was Bart Simpson doing Marge) will have you investigated by the Garda, they might not prosecute on that alone, but it is certainly enough for them to get a warrant to probe your innards (well your computer / house / office innards anyway).

Shinji

Yep, but it's on suspicion of possession of child pornography, not on the basis of the legal status of the material itself - at least not in Britain, and I suspect the same is true in Ireland.

offroadannie

in ireland it is illegal to depict someone engaged in sexually explicit conduct who appears to be a child (and this includes cartoon images) - the definition of a child here is 17 years, uk is 16 years, korea 13 years, usa 18

Child Trafficking & Pornography Act, 1998