3 IRISH GUYS in Colombia

karpovx

What do you think of the 3 "reporters" visiting Colombia?

The Saint

I think they should bring me back a nice mound of quality charlie.

karpovx

Because at the end of the end... they will never return to the ALWAYS GREEN IRELAND.


::: that's what happen when you are a little IRA guy ::::

Victor

Originally posted by karpovx
What do you think of the 3 "reporters" visiting Colombia?

Which 3 reporters would these be? Do you have any links to stories or the like?

Please read the charter.

karpovx

They said they were reports, but they were IRA terrorist training la FARC guerrilla.
Now they are arrested and crying missing Belfast and a good paint of guiness.

Hobart

Now Now karpovx. Be careful what you say. Although they are currently under the duristriction of another court they have not been convicted with anything. One of the people up on charges is the brother of a fairly high profile 'reporter' in Ireland. Maybe that is where you are getting your lines crossed. And BTW read the rules before posting. It's not good enough/allowed to just have a single statement, be it accurate or not, and say what do you think. Give your own opinion, include links, if you can, to back it up.

karpovx

Hi Hobart....
Now now... I can give you as many links as you want. The problem is that I image you don't speak spanish, and in the other hand I guess you have not a clue about the Colombian Conflict. ... do you?
May be... just may be if you had a Clue About Colombia, about the war and about the Guerrilla de la Farc and ELN, then may be you will be able to understand why PEOPLE, NORMAL people DO not go to "chat" with the guerrilla.
Bye the way you can check out many webpages where they show the relation between Colombian Terrorism and The IRA.
Also I advice you to check the PAST of this 3 guys. IRA shadow is all over their lovely C.V :cool:

growler

innocent until proven guilty , regardless of their past. It's not a crime to be a republican. I doubt anyone will get to testify against them anyway, hopefully this will end the ira's venture into international consultancy work .

Hobart

Now Now karpovx. Don't be a cheeky little monkey. Listen to what growler says.

You don't know whether I do speak spanish ir not. Maybe I might know one of the guy's locked up in Columbia. Maybe I might know his brother, who works for an Irish newspaper, maybe I work for an Irish newspaper. Maybe I know a little bit more about the american influence on this case. Maybe. Who knows?

Cork

Originally posted by growler
innocent until proven guilty , regardless of their past. It's not a crime to be a republican. I doubt anyone will get to testify against them anyway, hopefully this will end the ira's venture into international consultancy work .

I think SF needs to come out & explain why these 3 were in Columbia.

No more excuses or apologies.

Maybe RTE will doorstep SF at the Peace March tomorrow.

Hobart

Sinn Fein have commented on these guys. Initially they denied any connection with them. They then went on to say that on of them was thier 'fund raiser' in Cuba. Just google and you will find plenty on it. Bottom line is that Sinn Fein are distancing themselves from it.

Maybe RTE will doorstep SF at the Peace March tomorrow

No Idea what that is supposed to mean. Could you please expand.

Cork

I find it ironic that a "political party" that refused to codemn an illegal army being involved in a Peace March.

Hobart

Why the comma's around the words "political party"? Secondly they i.e. Sinn Fein would have a different view of your defiinition of an illegal army.

Meh

Originally posted by Hobart
Why the comma's around the words "political party"?

Because Sinn Fein is not a proper political party, since it does not use exclusively peaceful political means ("a ballot box in one hand and an armalite in the other" - Danny Morrison).

Secondly they i.e. Sinn Fein would have a different view of your defiinition of an illegal army.

illegal, noun: 1. Prohibited by law.
army, noun: 1. A large organized body of armed personnel trained for war especially on land

So, what is the definition of "illegal army" in the Sinn Fein dictionary? And why does the Sinn Fein definition differ from every other dictionary in the English language?

Hobart

.

Because Sinn Fein is not a proper political party, since it does not use exclusively peaceful political means

So by that analagy, The Greens would not be a proper political party, as they are also known to use 'illegal' means to re-inforce thier means, breaking into labs, destroyiong crops etc.......
However the Dail and a substancial amount of people who voted for Sinn Fein view them as a legit party, so I presume that they are your views and not a statement of fact. When the fact is that they actually are a politcal party.

illegal, noun: 1. Prohibited by law.
army, noun: 1. A large organized body of armed personnel trained for war especially on land

Thanks for the clarification on those words. But please take the time to re-read my original post. I said that they i.e. Sinn Fein would have a different view on that. If you want to ask them click here and i am sure they will accomadate you.

As an aside how do YOU define a proper polital party???

Meh

Originally posted by Hobart
So by that analagy, The Greens would not be a proper political party, as they are also known to use 'illegal' means to re-inforce thier means, breaking into labs, destroyiong crops etc.......

This comparison is specious. There have been no incidents of destruction of crops involving the Irish Green Party. All those incidents in this country have involved extremist fringe groups. The Greens confine themselves to peaceful, legal protests, and they don't condone violence or illegal activities in any way. Unlike Sinn Féin.

As an aside how do YOU define a proper polital party???

One that doesn't run its own private army on the side?

karpovx

Listen Hobart, may be you know them, may be you the 3 of them and you use to make parties in Belfast putting bombs. I really don't care.
They are in Colombia now. Far way from Ireland. Colombian people don't give a **** about IRA terrorists.
They broke the colombian law. As simple as that.
Now they have to face the consecuences.
As simple as that my little Hobart. You little green monkey.

Meh

Originally posted by karpovx
They broke the colombian law.

Isn't that what the trial is supposed to decide? Seems you're prejudging things a little...

Hobart

Look karpovx. Stop your little rant and think for a second. It's people like you that got the Birmingham 6 and Gildford 4 locked up. I am assuming that as you are probably in Ireland that you have no Idea what the ordinary Joe in the street in Colombia knows. So If you want to have an informed Debate on the issue I am more than willing to do that. If you want to have a rant go to http://www.haveabigrant.com and vent your little anger there. As i said earlier in the thread read the charter and then have a little think before putting your hands on that keyboard of yours. And lastly have a look at MEH post and answer that. OK? And stop trolling.

karpovx

:eek:

Pompey Magnus

Originally posted by Cork
I find it ironic that a "political party" that refused to codemn an illegal army being involved in a Peace March.

what I don't understand is why we don't treat Democratic Left/Labour in the same way as the shinners are? I mean the DL had clear links with the official IRA didn't they and they now run Labour with Rabbitte, De Rossa and co. critisising Sinn Fein links with the provos. (the pot calling the kettle black?)

"Controversy dogged the party over the years with allegations of illegal fund-raising activities by the party and its association with the Official IRA." from Ireland.com

Here

I dunno, it just seems hypocritical to me, can someone clear this up and what's the difference?

growler

the notoriously short memories of the irish electorate!!
go back long enough and all parties had their share of illegality and insurrection (except the PD's who run extensive racketeering in Limerick) ;-)

Hobart

There have been no incidents of destruction of crops involving the Irish Green Party. All those incidents in this country have involved extremist fringe groups

I would say that most political parties have so called 'extremist fringe groups' that do or do not have some allengencies.

One that doesn't run its own private army on the side?

Your memory is far too short, Meh, ever here of Charles J Haughey and his links to illegal paramilitary activites. Some even said that there was government collusion on this. Ever here of the Irish Governments plan to arm catholics in the North. Hardly legal! What about the so-called links between DeRossa and the communists?

The boundaries of legality can be stretched to suit a governments own needs. Power corrupts. That has been proved again and again. Remember the CIA in Panama and Columbia. Hardly legal but backed by so called Proper Politcal Parties. What about the bombing of the Rainbow warrior by the French. Hardly legal but backed by so called Proper Political Parties.There are many more examples.

Meh

Originally posted by Hobart
I would say that most political parties have so called 'extremist fringe groups' that do or do not have some allengencies.

Really? So which terrorist organization is (for example) Fine Gael currently associated with?

Your memory is far too short, Meh, ever here of Charles J Haughey and his links to illegal paramilitary activites. Some even said that there was government collusion on this.

That was never a government policy or a Fianna Fáil policy. It was a secret conspiracy between a few malcontents in the party, who were immediately sacked when it was revealed. Again, in contrast to Sinn Féin, who make no secret of their approval of the IRA.

Ever here of the Irish Governments plan to arm catholics in the North. Hardly legal!

Which is why they never followed through on the plan.

What about the so-called links between DeRossa and the communists?

What about them? Being a communist, unlike being a terrorist, isn't illegal.

Hobart

Really? So which terrorist organization is (for example) Fine Gael currently associated with?

I said most not all. TBH I have no idea who Fine Gael may or may not be associated with. But remember where Finna Fail rose from.

That was never a government policy or a Fianna Fáil policy. It was a secret conspiracy between a few malcontents in the party,.

Really? I think you will find that it was a little bit more than that. However I will re-visit that point on Monday (I'm at home at the moment and have shag all bandwidth. However, remember it is the party members who decide what the party policy is, and these were party members.

Which is why they never followed through on the plan

I think that you will find that it was nothing got to do with the actual legalities. It would never have been a plan it that was the case.

What about them? Being a communist, unlike being a terrorist, isn't illegal

I think it was more about the so called illegal funding he was recieving that was the problem as opposed to the actual realationship.

However I still stand by my initial point that power can and does corrupt. Just because it is party policy to do something does not mean that it is proper or legal. And I refer you back to my points about the USA and France.


In fact look at what the Belgians are doing now in relation to Sharon. Now I know that they have said that they will not prosecute while he is in power. But they also said that they will not rule it out after he is no longer prime minister.

Sinn Fein, like Finna Fail, have come a long way since the 1970's and they are trying to form some sort of political shape, while trying to keep some semblance of allegience with the IRA. Don't for one minute get me wrong. I despise the tactics with which the IRA operated. I do, however, have some sympathy with thier aims. i.e. a united Ireland. But only through peaceful means. I would not advocate the sheeding of one drop of blood from any nationality to further thier or anybody else's cause.

daveirl

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Cork

Originally posted by daveirl
Sinn Féin are still terrorists and criminals. They refuse to obey the law of the land and don't agree to fundamental sections of our constitution.

On the Columbia thing. I'm not going to presume anyone's guilt but usually the most likely explanation is the true thing. Do you want to give me a more likely explanation as to why 3 IRA members were in Columbia in FARC controlled areas with fake passports.

I agree, the sheer horror of bombngs, shooting & punishment beatings that GO On in this country.

The SDLP are head and sholders above SF.

Hobart

Sinn Féin are still terrorists and criminals

Ok daveirl thats your opinion. However that would go against every logical thought that any free democratic Irish person would have. You seem to ignore that representitives of your government are from Sinn Fein.

I also believe that it is now illegal to elect anybody who is a known criminal or a member of an illegal organisation.

On the Columbia thing. I'm not going to presume anyone's guilt but usually the most likely explanation is the true thing.

That statement is totally contradictory. What do you mean by that? I am thinking that they are innoncent but they are probably guilty? Well just come out and say it. Do you know what I reckon that they were not down there just to look at the scenery. At a big guess I reckon that they were up to no good. Maybe I am way off. Who knows?

Do you want to give me a more likely explanation as to why 3 IRA members were in Columbia in FARC controlled areas with fake passports

No.

I agree, the sheer horror of bombngs, shooting & punishment beatings that GO On in this country.

Cork I agree. But you are adding nothing by using these sound-bites. I believe that we are all appaled by the suffering of innoncent people in any conflict. TBH your statement could be attributed to most threads in this forum. I know that you are not the best typist but try to get your point across a bit better.

Biffa Bacon

I hope the Colombians put them away for life. Better to have them locked up over there than free men over here.

daveirl

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karpovx

I´m Colombian. And BELIEVE me... People back home in my country are not going to let the 3 IRA guys Free. Many people are dying in my country, thanks to people like the 3 IRA guys HELPING the guerrillas to IMPROVE their bombs, their attacks....
Terrorism is a business, is not a political situation any more. The IRA guys where in Colombia as a business exchange. They teach them how to improve their bomb, and FARC give them $$$$ product of the drug business.
So NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA, hey hey GOOD BYE.... to the 3 irish "inocent" guys. With fake passports? After traveling to the guerrilla zone?.... mmmm... I don´t think so...

Cork

I am no fan of either SF or the IRA.

I think that neither of them done anything for the case of Irish republicanism.

But the 3 in Columbia have to get due process.

I still think that SF/IRA need to offer an explanation to what they were doing out there.

But - I think they need to get a fair hearing and they are indeed innocent until proven otherwise.

Victor

Originally posted by Hobart
You seem to ignore that representitives of your government are from Sinn Fein.

Who?

Originally posted by Hobart
I also believe that it is now illegal to elect anybody who is a known criminal or a member of an illegal organisation.

No. In some places current prisoners aren't allowed run for elction, that is all.

Pompey Magnus

Originally posted by daveirl
Sinn Féin are still terrorists and criminals. They refuse to obey the law of the land and don't agree to fundamental sections of our constitution.

Can we hear an attack along these lines aimed at the United Irishmen and Wolfe Tone as leader of an illegal armed force in the British empire, government of the land ? what about the Collins, De Valera and Connolly not committed to exclusively democratic means, will we hear Bertie and co. condeming their illegal actions? Fianna fail entering Dail Eireann with handguns in their pocket sounds unusually like " armalite in one hand, ballotpaper in the other" if you ask me! Maybe The French Resistance fighting the Vichy government, I'm sure they didn't agree with fundamental sectins of THEIR constitution AND they committed political assassinations..ooooh naughty Free French. Surely Afghanistans Mujahideen deserve a mention, I mean they slaughter hundreds of prisoners of war and have scaled up opium production! lets not pick and choose who we condemn here, lets be fair across the board.

Meh

Originally posted by spandauballet
Can we hear an attack along these lines aimed at the United Irishmen and Wolfe Tone as leader of an illegal armed force in the British empire, government of the land ?

The British government in Ireland in 1798 was not democratic and did not govern with the consent of the Irish people. Unlike today's Republic.

what about the Collins, De Valera and Connolly not committed to exclusively democratic means, will we hear Bertie and co. condeming their illegal actions?

The IRA during the War of Independence did have a democratic mandate from a majority of the Irish people -- completely unlike today's Sinn Fein/IRA. 5% in the last general election is very far from a mandate to wage war.

Fianna fail entering Dail Eireann with handguns in their pocket sounds unusually like " armalite in one hand, ballotpaper in the other" if you ask me!

I'll grant you that one. But how does Fianna Fail's behaviour 70 years ago excuse Sinn Fein today? FF have at least learned something over the years; SF are still stuck in the last century.

daveirl

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growler

Meh : "The IRA during the War of Independence did have a democratic mandate from a majority of the Irish people -- completely unlike today's Sinn Fein/IRA. 5% in the last general election is very far from a mandate to wage war"

this is quite impossible to prove or otherwise, most Irish people at the start of the century were reasonably content with their lot or were too busy trying to do work/ raise faimilies / run the farms etc. to give 2 seconds though to such lofty ideals as an independent ireland. It was by no means a mass uprising , in fact i seem to recall that only the force of the british reprisals made it a popular cause , if the leaders of 1916 had been jailed for 10 years not shot , the outcome could have been very different I think.

Meh

Originally posted by growler
this is quite impossible to prove or otherwise, most Irish people at the start of the century were reasonably content with their lot or were too busy trying to do work/ raise faimilies / run the farms etc. to give 2 seconds though to such lofty ideals as an independent ireland.

Is the 1918 general election enough proof for you? 73 seats out of 105 is a mandate; 5 out of 166 (or 4 out of 18 in NI) isn't.

Pompey Magnus

Originally posted by Meh
Is the 1918 general election enough proof for you? 73 seats out of 105 is a mandate; 5 out of 166 (or 4 out of 18 in NI) isn't.

what growler was saying is actually correct, the IRA members were pelted with fruit and abuse by Dubliners after their surrender:

"We got a very hostile reception along the way. At this stage we had very little sympathy in the country as a whole."
Joseph Sweeney (member of the IRA in 1916).

so when the rebellion occured there was NOT a democratic mandate from the Irish people alot of whom had relatives in the British army, it was against the wishes of the majority. also wrt the "mandate" given in 1918 the Home Rule party was a shambles and didn't even contest 25 regions against SF so the choice was quite limited indeed!.

daveirl

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Pompey Magnus

ok. I am not an expert on the subject or any kind of spokesman for people from the north, but here's my understanding, and please correct me in anything I have wrong here...punishment beatings (shootings I believe are almost exclusive to unionist paramilitaries nowadays) by the IRA were aimed at criminals and drug dealers and other scum of the society who, due to the inefficiency by the RUC in nationalist areas, were not being halted in their activities and so a vacuum of "protector" of the community was filled by those with the local power to do so.Also I don't believe this has anything to do with the struggle for independence, just a by-product. (I also do NOT agree with them, they don't work as crime is high in these areas, and I believe the new police force, with further improvements will bring an end to them).

Drugs dealing, I have yet to hear any real link between the Provos and drug dealing apart from Direct Action Against Drugs which targets drug dealers to keep nationalist areas clean and not to keep a monopoly.btw of course there is a direct and obvious link between drug dealing and Loyalist paramilitaries.

growler

couple of points , meh it's revisionist (ish) to say an election in 1918 prove a mandate was there in 1916 ..it simply doesn't , the cause of irish nationalism in that period was not truly popular until the executions of the rising's leaders. Anyway it's a bit of a moot point as there weren't any national opinion polls in those days , so we can't know for sure , anecdotally i believe it wasn't truly popular based on my own readings of irish history and chats in the pub.

from spandau "inefficiency by the RUC in nationalist areas "

lol , the threat of a bullet, petrol bomb, riot etc may have slightly impinged on their ability to curb the drug dealing and joyriding etc. in nationalist areas.

on the drugs issue , again i can't point you to any facts , but i know that in cork you need to purchase permission from the ira to deal drugs. I have heard the same said of Dublin and Limerick. They don't want to gett their hands dirty with drugs but aren't above taking a share of the cash.

Pompey Magnus

Originally posted by growler
.

from spandau "inefficiency by the RUC in nationalist areas "

lol , the threat of a bullet, petrol bomb, riot etc may have slightly impinged on their ability to curb the drug dealing and joyriding etc. in nationalist areas.

I think that the above is as a result, not a cause of the actual inadequacies of the sectarian police force. you treat a dog like sh*t for long enough and you get bitten.

karpovx

Please......
is not COLUMBIA

is COLOMBIA.

cheers.

Cork

Originally posted by growler


on the drugs issue , again i can't point you to any facts , but i know that in cork you need to purchase permission from the ira to deal drugs. I have heard the same said of Dublin and Limerick. They don't want to gett their hands dirty with drugs but aren't above taking a share of the cash.

I really do not know if this is true but the IRA needs to bisband.

All gangs then need to be taken on.