O'er the land of the unfree and the home of the bomb...

Dotsie~tmp

Heres a truely frightning piece of legislation Americans can look forward to in the near future. Its interesting to see that not too long ago this Ashcroft chap (Attorney General, drafted the first Patriot Act and now part two) was commenting that Americans at the moment would not tolerate a more radical form of the 'USA Patriot Act' but in the near future, that if there was an attack like that of 11-9-01 they would not only welcome it but insist on such draconian measures.

Well guess what, it already exists and is sitting on Ashcrofts desk in pretty much finished form (though they say its a draft it looks pretty complete from my peruse of it). Its also not been passed round congress as many drafts are and has been leaked within the last few days i think. Yeah its there just waiting for the next big attack. Btw America has stepped up to a more hightened threat level. I heard on BBC that the new homeland department whatever its name is told Americans to prepare themselves and thier families for a possibly immenent chemical, bio or neuclear attack.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/disasterplan030211.html


Ill admit i like to gather my news from as many sources as possible including what i would call independant yet biased (is there a truely unbiased source around?). Heres a few to look at.

http://www.masternewmedia.com/issue13/independentonlinenews.htm

Plus the woefully poor; abcnews.com, skynews.com, fox and even some of the more 'fringe' like below. I try to distill the information, disinformation, lies, omissions, wild theorys, fact etc. into something resembling the truth.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

Well this bill is no conspiracy theory, it exists and i think may even have existed in the Bush administrations minds for a long time. If i was an American i would be truely worried at some of these measures. You can read the bill here or here.

http://www.incunabula.org/DSEA/INDEX.HTM
http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1.pdf

Here you can read some brakdowns of what its about. The first is from the Centre for Public Integrity.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0&L5=0

This one is more cynical from, as the call themselves 'news from the edge' or unknowncountry.com. Dismiss it as trash if you want but i believe there are truths in some of thses site if they can be found.

http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/

I wonder looking at the world at the moment was this how it felt for people before the second world war came. Im sure as laws like thses came into action in Germany that if you told someone in 10 yrs Germany would be utterly destroyed, there would be 75 million war dead, the continent and Germany would be carved in two and that Germany would systematically kill over 6 million unarmed pepole by the methods they did they would think you were bonkers. But i think nobody sees these things coming and the truth only really dawns on us when we see that we are long in the middle of it and are facing a machine a system that literally devours people who resist (communism, nazis and the rest..).

I am seeing parallels now with this and the USA.

-Demonising of a people who are the enemy within (Jew Judaism, Arab Islam).

-Talk of things like patriotism, duty, freedom, sacrafice.

-Constant propaganda telling people they are under a mortal threat!

-The need for war to tackle this threat.

-Laws that begin to erode bit by bit freedoms but are necessay to fight this enemy that has penetrated the populous thus requiring unheard of powers for the state.

-Leaders who cloak themselves with high minded ideals of justice, fighting evil with god on thier side. These leaders who actually turn out to be dictators with no notion of these at all.

You may not buy that guys belief that the US government was actully the initiator of the WTC attack cause i dont. I do however see grave warning signs that we now live in dangerous times. I believe that there will probably be another large attack on America and this hideous bill which believe it or not has been drafted by the government of the head of the free world! (how can an American administration even consider these powers?) will be enacted.

With thses i agree America will have taken a large step away from being the free nation she claims to be. I agree the most powerful force on earth will come even more under the control of people like Bush, Rummsfeld & Ashcroft all of whom i deeply deeply mistrust and who have lied so often they wouldnt know the truth if it flattened them. Thier abuse of power is for me so evident its sickening. They are duping the American public as Hitler duped the Germans only this time i think its not so easy. Modern media dispells much ignorance if you are willing to look for it and not bee spoon fed sound bytes and propaganda.

I could be wrong of course and im not suggesting for a minute that George Bush is the next Hitler merely showing how history is repeating itself with regards to those individuals actions and power plays. Its 55 yrs since those things happened. Thats not even a lifetime and yet so much seems to have been forgotten. Im not an optimist in these matters. Im looking at the shít the Americans are buying off this guy and belive that history will indeed eventually repeat and a war like nothing else will again engulf nations. When? Who knows.

Again you may say no that could never happen! not now not in America but again i remind you its just 55 yrs since those 75 million died and the German people had no idea of the whirlwind they and the Fatherland were about to reap, do Americans and the Homeland? A war of agression is now immenant in a region thats in turmoil. The American administration has succeeded in focusing people on this issue of Iraq and resolutions when people should actually be asking whether this whole war is right or wrong! and further than that the actions and hidden agendas of this administration.

I have no time for the argument that Saddam is evil and this war is the right thing to do. Yes he is a monster but hes a monster of their creation who Rummsfeld and many others from the current administration had absolutely no problem with selling weapons to (even allegedly chemical and bio) while in the Bush Snr. administration. All in the full knowledge of what he was doing to his citizens and neighbours they actively supported him.

The hypocrisy is off the scale. They know no justice or duty, just look at their actions in the past. Why the hell isnt this stuff being debated and talked about by the American public? The administration has taken huge amounts of money from the oil business in the US and the administration has people with large interests in the oil business including the President himself.

I could argue till im blue in the face yet it feels like its an unstoppable force. Take a good look at that bill. Stop being spoon fed and if your in support of the war think that as we debate this at this moment there are thousands of people eating, sleeping, living life eithr Arab or American or Bristish soldier that will probably be dead within the month. Many will be very innocent. Just imagine they are you brother or son or someone you love. Imagine them blown to irretrievable bits. Do you still support it? If so then pick up a gun and go and fight. Anything else is heartless.

Id appreciate peoples perspective on the LARGER isssue. Especially what any Americans on the boards think of this bill thats all ready to go care of the freedom loving Bush and Co.

Hobbes

Do you have a link to this second bill? (try US Thomas Jefferson site if you can).

Afair, the USA Patriot act and homeland security bills have both been passed into US law some time ago, so quit complaining you unAmerican or I'll report you to the nearest HS office.

Seriously though, I can only guess that the majority have no fricken clue what's in those bills or think it doesn't apply to Americans.

Dotsie~tmp

This is not the patriot act its a whole new one. The story of the leak is currently breaking. The Centre for Public Integrity site seems to be under pressure from hits of people wanting to read the draft. Hers another link.

Hobbes

Ooh nasty. But no one would ever pass such a bill like... oops. :rolleyes:

Do a search on thomas.loc.gov for "Justice Enhancement and Domestic Security Act of 2003", you'll get the full bill and it's status there.

There's tons in it.

Dotsie~tmp

He didnt prepare the bill cause they had some spare time. Its been in process a long time and they intend to present it at some stage.

Plus if there was another attack you might be surprised what the Americans might let through if they are scared enough.

Hobbes

They have already shown it in the Senate.

Have you read the bill? It is nothing like USA PATRIOT act or Homeland Security act.

If you go to http://thomas.loc.gov and do a search for it you can read the full bill which has been handed to the Senate (it's a huge bill btw).

If there is anything dodgy in that you know of? the PATRIOT act and HS bill have more civil liberties issues then that bill that I can see.

Dotsie~tmp

Hobbes what bill are u talking about? Im talking about the 'Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003'. It hasnt been handed to the senate in fact a senate committee was told it didnt exist when they asked about it dubbed Patriit Act II a while ago. Plus i can find no mention on http://thomas.loc.gov/.

You can read about who had it and who hadnt here at SantaFeNewMexican.com.

Dotsie~tmp

Here are some more new articles, no fans there.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=domestic+security+enhancement+act

I think you are talking about 'Justice Enhancement and Domestic Security Act of 2003'? A different bill here compare the two.

Domestic Security Enhancement

Justice Enhancement

Hobbes

Originally posted by Dotsie~tmp
Hobbes what bill are u talking about? Im talking about the 'Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003'. It hasnt been handed to the senate in fact a senate committee was told it didnt exist when they asked about it dubbed Patriit Act II a while ago. Plus i can find no mention on http://thomas.loc.gov/.

I am talking about the exact same bill.

Searching for "Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003'

Listing of 1 bill containing all your search words near each other in any order.

1 . Justice Enhancement and Domestic Security Act of 2003 (Introduced in Senate)[S.22.IS]

If you do the search yourself you will find it. I would give you a direct link to the bill except that the site generates pages that can't be linked to. You can search either by the name of the Bill ID, although I recommend the name as you tend to find all data relating to the bill including senate comments, additions/removals.

It is there. The bill is huge though, and from what I've read of it so far the USA PATRIOT act a lot worse.

Dotsie~tmp

These bills are not the same. Check some of the news links i posted or compare them in the links above.

dahamsta

FindLaw

Patriot II:
The Sequel Why It's Even Scarier than the First Patriot Act
By ANITA RAMASASTRY
----
Monday, Feb. 17, 2003

Soon after the terrorist acts of September 11, Congress passed the USA Patriot Act, which conferred broad new powers upon the federal government. Now John Ashcroft and his scribes at the Justice Department have been working secretly to create new, 120-page draft legislation that, if enacted, would expand greatly upon these already sweeping powers.

This daring sequel to the USA Patriot Act is known internally as the Domestic Security Enhancement Act. It is also nicknamed Patriot II (the name by which I'll refer to it here), or Son of Patriot. On February 7 of this year, a January 9 draft of Patriot II was revealed to the public - but not by the government. It was made public only through a leak.

Even Congress itself, strikingly, appears to have played little or no part in Patriot II's drafting (though it seems that Speaker of the House Hastert was, at least, given the opportunity to review the draft last month, as was Vice President Cheney.).

Perhaps the Bush Administration is looking to repeat its experience with the original USA Patriot Act. Amidst the emotional turmoil after September 11, the Administration introduced the Act and got it enacted in a matter of weeks. The Senate Judiciary Committee had only a brief, one-and-a-half-hour hearing on the Act, in which Attorney General Ashcroft testified but took no questions. In the House, meanwhile, there was no testimony from opponents of the bill.

After September 11, there was at least some rationale for this expedited consideration. Now, however, there is far less exigency. If the introduction of Patriot II in Congress coincides with the Iraq war, it may well be because the Administration has planned it that way, to take advantage of circumstances to ram the bill through both Houses quickly.

Even if Patriot II does end up being introduced in wartime, citizens and their representatives should fight this legislation tooth and nail, for it threatens to take even more of our liberties away. It is a wholesale assault on privacy, free speech, and freedom of information.

[...]

dahamsta

Just one more then...

Bill of Rights under a new assault

News and views, culled and edited from my online eJournal (www.dangillmor.com):

Patriotism perverted: The Bush administration's hostility to our fundamental liberties is unrelenting. Not content with ramming the contemptibly named ``USA Patriot Act'' through a sadly compliant Congress in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the White House and its forces are lining up for another whack at the Bill of Rights.

Draft legislation from Attorney General John Ashcroft's law-enforcement gnomes is making the rounds. It's apparently being called the ``Domestic Security Enhancement Act,'' but think of it as ``UnPatriot II.''

Read the draft on the Center for Public Integrity's Web site (http://publicintegrity .org/dtaweb/home.asp). Then read the FindLaw Web site's analysis (http://writ .findlaw.com/ramasastry/ 20030217.html) by Anita Ramasastry, an assistant law professor at the University of Washington School of Law and associate director of the Shidler Center for Law, Commerce & Technology.

The legislation, Ramasastry warns, is ``a wholesale assault on privacy, free speech and freedom of information.'' She does not exaggerate.

[...]