eircom on Prime Time-02/08/01

LegacyUser · 02-08-2001 8:16pm #1

Please disregard this message after 02/08/01

There is a piece on eircom on Prime Time @ 9.30pm, RTE 1. I think its mainly about the ailing share price but Brian Farrells promo stated something like "and why are the normal telephone users suffering". It maybe worth a look.

80p.

<A HREF="http://www.80project.com" TARGET=_blank>www.80project.com[/URL]</A>

LegacyUser · 02-08-2001 8:19pm

thanks, i try not to watch that muck, but thats the price we pay

LegacyUser · 02-08-2001 8:57pm

well that was worth avoiding, shame i did not.

Ashley...if only

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

LegacyUser · 02-08-2001 9:07pm

Not much about the shocking service except to point out what we already knew as Frank Fitzgibbon said......
"Eircom are Company w/out a strategy and the board are just interested in making personal profit by selling the Company off to the highest bidder!" [paraphrasing]

Although I'm a shareholder (please no jibes!) I couldn't give a flying f*** about the SharePrice-(I wrote that grand off a long while ago), I would have rather heard the actual operational chaos be discussed.
Ah well, The seminar is yet to come!!!

80p.

I wonder will the Scenes @ the Point be repeated when eircom get up and speak?
I hope not but I know it will be difficult for some to avoid expressing their disgust.

[This message has been edited by 80project.com (edited 02-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 02-08-2001 9:28pm

And I see that 4000 Eircom staff signed a petition asking for the E-Island bid to be rejected based on a certain E-Island members attitude towards unions in when he was in charge of another teleco!

LegacyUser · 02-08-2001 11:04pm

It's great to see them worried their cushy little number is coming to an end. Roll on Denis.

LegacyUser · 02-08-2001 11:23pm

Originally posted by hmmm:
It's great to see them worried their cushy little number is coming to an end. Roll on Denis.

I'm not sure E-Island are the people for the job - they've publicly stated that they plan to fund capital expenditure entirely from profit (probably because they are so highly leveraged).

I'm not sure how good it would be for the country if the incumbent could only afford ~IEP25million/year in investment, though.

Personally, I think Eircom going private will be an extremely bad thing for those of us hoping to see a modern telecoms network - at a time when Eircom so desperately needs to invest, their means of borrowing the money will be wiped out overnight.

jd · 02-08-2001 11:33pm

Originally posted by hudson806:
I'm not sure E-Island are the people for the job - they've publicly stated that they plan to fund capital expenditure entirely from profit (probably because they are so highly leveraged).

I'm not sure how good it would be for the country if the incumbent could only afford ~IEP25million/year in investment, though.

Personally, I think Eircom going private will be an extremely bad thing for those of us hoping to see a modern telecoms network - at a time when Eircom so desperately needs to invest, their means of borrowing the money will be wiped out overnight.

Which I have tried to say a few times previously-even though I work for a subsidiary. If the management aren't performing, they can be replaced wihout the company been sold

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 12:14am

Originally posted by hudson806:
I'm not sure how good it would be for the country if the incumbent could only afford ~IEP25million/year in investment, though.

Yeah, absolute disaster.
Is there no way to increase the investment by OLO's?

dahamsta · 03-08-2001 1:51am

Hudson, I respect your opinion - you seem to know your stuff with regard to telco's better than everybody here, particularly on the technical side - so I would be genuinely interested in what you think would be best for Eircom at this stage in the game. Let's ignore the possibility of the sale not going through, or the current circumstances - which would you *prefer* to see gain control?

Valentia or eIsland?

adam

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 8:56am

I must admit that I actually made a profit from Eircom shares but despite this I am totally dismayed by what has happened and the way customers and ordinary shareholders have been treated.
I could never understand the sale to Vodafone and I am not at all happy to see the balance of the company being sold off at a knock down price. When it has been sold I expect things to get even worse from the consumer's point of view as the only aim of the new owner(s) will be to squeeze every last penny from their investment.

If I (as a consumer)had to choose between the parties involved I would much prefer O'Reilly ... if I were a shareholder I would go with who offers the best cash deal.
The future looks bleak for us consumers.

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 9:07am

eIsland, because i think he will be better for the end user us, less likely to **** about and block everything, kinda like the people they have put in to bt how, that took a look at the company and started to work,

Anto is a status Quo type, with no real aim were as o brien has, not sure what it is, but any direction over no direction got to be good,

personaly i think he wont get it this time around, but in five years time when eircoms in an even bigger hole then how, and were all useing internet sat, and sky digital and eircons debt is tripled, then he will come in a buy it at a steal

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 10:34am

Originally posted by hudson806:
I'm not sure E-Island are the people for the job - they've publicly stated that they plan to fund capital expenditure entirely from profit (probably because they are so highly leveraged).

I'm not sure how good it would be for the country if the incumbent could only afford ~IEP25million/year in investment, though.

Yeah but you're talking about the profit that would be made from the old style running of things. I am a shareholder of Eircom (I'm a poor sod I know) so I get all their lovely financial information mailed out to me with all these new offers. For 2001 Eircom had a turnover of 2,158 Million Euros. They spent 905 Million Euros on employees and operating cost. Let's just say that again almost a billion Euros just on paying their staff. A billion Euros! Almost half their bloody turnover on just paying their staff. I know for most companiess your staff is your most important commodity, but come on ...

I'm not sure where the figure of IEP25 Million came from. According to this before tax and dividends they made a profit of 66 million Euros, and after tax and dividends they made a Retained LOSS of 10 million euros. Can you imagine? Eircom, screwing us for all this money and still making a loss!

I could imagine what it would be like if Denis got in. Something tells me he ain't going to be spending half a 2 billion turnover on his staff!!! Do you not agree, that if Eircom was run efficiently it could make a huge profit and invest it's HUGE profit in it's own infrastructure. Even if they fire .... let's say exactly half of their staff who do nothing, and keep the other hard workers on, that's an extra half a billion euros to invest each year in upgrading Eircom's own network. You can do an awful lot, even on a national scale with half a billion euros!

The future could be bright, but we'll have to wait and see.

jd · 03-08-2001 1:12pm

Originally posted by nahdoic:
s. They spent 905 Million Euros on employees and operating cost. Let's just say that again almost a billion Euros just on paying their staff.

no actually-they did not spend 905 million on pay for staff-operating costs include more than staff salaries
jd

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 1:45pm

Originally posted by infomat:
I must admit that I actually made a profit from Eircom shares but despite this I am totally dismayed by what has happened and the way customers and ordinary shareholders have been treated.
I could never understand the sale to Vodafone and I am not at all happy to see the balance of the company being sold off at a knock down price. When it has been sold I expect things to get even worse from the consumer's point of view as the only aim of the new owner(s) will be to squeeze every last penny from their investment.

If I (as a consumer)had to choose between the parties involved I would much prefer O'Reilly ... if I were a shareholder I would go with who offers the best cash deal.
The future looks bleak for us consumers.

As far as I heard, Eircom basically had to sell Eircell because they needed more money to pay their staff/pay for operational costs. I do not know if this is true or not.

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 1:51pm

they needed it to pay off the 4000 people they plain to lay off who ever takes it over,
despite what some may think you cant just fire people like that, especially ex civil servants,
its the same with this 20% esb price rise and the 14% rte licence fee rise,
none of them say it but firing a large number of their staff with cost them allot of money,

the strange thing is the staff would have gotthen more under O'Brien then anto when they get fired

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 1:57pm

Originally posted by dahamsta:
Let's ignore the possibility of the sale not going through, or the current circumstances - which would you *prefer* to see gain control?

Thanks for the kind comments Adam (looking at the time of your post I guess you were drunk...

)

Well, first off, my preference would be for the shareholders to fire the board and install people with vision - Eircom is virtually debt free (ulike telcos all over Europe), and hence can raise the capital they need to truly create the E-commerce hub we keep hearing about - broadband in every city etc. This is inevitably going to be the source of their profit in the future anyway, so why not do it now? IMHO, an over-cautious board looking too much at the markets is holding them back.

However, at this point, we all know that the company is going to be sold (to Valentia, almost certainly), so considering the competitors for Eircom:

E-Island has only one positive thing going for it - Dennis O' Brien. He is a gifted entrepeneur, and, importantly, he has vision. Unforunately, I don't think those traits will do a damn thing for him in Eircom. The unions have made their agreements with the management about reducing staff numbers/operating costs etc., and simply put, if Dennis O' Brien changes that one iota, they will shut the company down. The company employs 10,000 or so people from a government job/civil service background, and they will not stand for any of their cushiness being removed. O' Brien couldn't fire someone for gross incompetence with risking a Strike.

His visionary abilities will be diluted, too, by the fact that he won't have any money to carry any of his ideas out.

So, as far as I'm concerned, Dennis can't effectively reduce costs to increase value. So why is he interested? He knows that Eircom is dirt cheap right now. He can buy it, sit on it for 3 years, then make a killing. He doesn't need to do a thing. Cut off all R&D, investment, improvment - nobody will see the fruits of that within 3 years. Just sit there and make a packet in 3 years time. Why do you think E-island's loans are all leveraged over 18 month to 36 month periods?

Valentia on the other hand has Tony O' Reilly, the biggest sh|t in the industry, lurking in the background. No doubt that his philosophy for profit generation is geared in the same way as Eircom's: obstruct, bully and act the bad-boy in general. Added to the mix is his obsession with media control - imagaine a DSL service that only runs on his Unison set-top-box, or that doesn't allow you near the Irish Times website and you have an idea of how he plans to make money. (Illustrative examples only, don't take seriously...)

At least Valentia's borrowings are geared over a ten-year period, so he'll be there long enough for investment to be worth his while.

So, in order of preference:

1. Fire the board
2. Keep the board
3. Valentia (at least they'll invest)
4. E-Island ('Retire in 18 months!!!' as the spam says)

Sorry about the length of this post...

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 2:08pm

as usual hudson806 makes sense, and chorus being sold to someone who will knows how to use it, maybe better from broadband in ireland then O'Brien running eircon with his hands tied behind his back,

haa wouldnt it be funny if o brien made a bid for chorus

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 2:10pm

Originally posted by hudson806:
Thanks for the kind comments Adam
So, in order of preference:

1. Fire the board
2. Keep the board
3. Valentia (at least they'll invest)
4. E-Island ('Retire in 18 months!!!' as the spam says)

Sorry about the length of this post...

I agree with your comments and your list of preferences.

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 2:16pm

Originally posted by hudson806:
...Well, first off, my preference would be for the shareholders to fire the board and install people with vision...

The only problem with that IIRC (and any shareholders here can correct me if I'm wrong) is that the board holds a larger % of the shares that the rest of the shareholders. I'm trying to remember the last AGM and I think that there was some major decision to be made (sale of Eircell to Vodafone?) and at the end of the day it didn't matter whether the "ordinary" shareholders voted against of not, they were gonna be outvoted.

If that's the case, then it doesn't look like the board can be removed.

Lets face it, they're like every other board comprising people who have sod all to do with the day to day business of a company, they're in it for what they can get out of it, NOT the good of the company.

Mike

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 3:04pm

Originally posted by Delphi91:
The only problem with that IIRC (and any shareholders here can correct me if I'm wrong) is that the board holds a larger % of the shares that the rest of the shareholders.

I agree it won't happen - KPN and Telia are desperate for the money, and would sell at any price. But why didn't Eircom itself offer to buy back the shares when they were hovering at 1 Euro each? They would have had to borrow a chunk of money for the buyback, but the debt still would have been way lower than there will be under Valentia or E-Island.

IMHO, the only people who will benefit from the sale of Eircom will be the directors - they are essentially trying to ransack the company in order to make a quick buck for themselves, because they know that the majority shareholders have to sell in order to reduce their own debt.

dahamsta · 03-08-2001 3:53pm

You're welcome Hudson, and no, I wasn't drunk, I just work late. All the time...

I also agree with your order of preference, although of course the board and the management should have been sacked a year after the company went public. It was obvious from the off that they were unable to manage and direct the company towards the profitablility and status that was possible. It was also obvious from the Renumeration Committee (chaired by Ray MacSharry conveniently enough) decisions that they were just in it for the money. Whatever about the ordinary shareholder - who didn't have a hope of making real changes on their own, as was made perfectly clear at last years AGM - KPN and Telia should have spotted this an age ago and leveraged their shareholding - with the support of the ordinary shareholders - to make changes in the company. I know there must be a reason behind the decision to remain passive, but I honestly can't see the logic - I mean, look at the position they're in now...

I will concede one thing to the board and management, and one thing only - they were stuck with the same problem as whoever ends up with the company will be when the takeover bid completes, i.e. they couldn't fire anyone. Literally, it was built into their contracts with the government that they couldn't fire anyone except in extraordinary circumstances, or by agreement with the unions - which of course meant large payoffs. I realise how the employees and the unions feel about this, but this is the Real World[tm] and unless it's handled, nothing is ever going to change. Eircom is overstaffed and for the most part incompetently and unproductively staffed. The employees in the company were "brought up" in a semi-state, civil service environment, and there can be no arguing with the assertion that this environment leads to staff with particulatly shoddy productivity levels.

I think you're right in that no matter what happens now, we're going to be in bad shape. And it seems at this stage, going by the enlightening commentary on Prime Time yesterday evening, that nearly everyone who matters is going to be in bad shape. The ordinary shareholders who were in my mind quite literally sold Fools Gold (which reminds me of our favourite son Tony O'Reilly's Atlantic Resources con job) by the government are going to come out with compulsory puchase of their shares at a fraction of the value they *should* have. But the group that is going to come off with by far the worst deal is consumers and businesses, because the end result of the buyout is going to be even less competition in the marketplace. At least, that's what you seem to be saying, and it has to be said that you make a lot of sense.

Is it possible, is it at all possible that the government has pulled the wool over our eyes and in actual fact has an endgame in sight? Is it possible that they think this buyout will clear up any remaining problems they have with Eircom, and they can start getting tough with them, and letting the Regulator off the choke chain? Personally, I doubt it, because they've demonstrated gross incompetence so far with their handling of the situation, but I think that if your assertions are true, that's the only solution they have left. Let Etain Doyle off the leash to savage Eircom and tear the company apart unless they co-operate with local loop unbundling and the promotion of competition in the marketplace.

Anything else, in my opinion at least, is going to be the final death knell of Bertie's so-called "eCommerce Hub". And let's be honest, if you can't handle technology these days, if you can't supply decent telecommunications, you might as well give up and let the recession slide over and envelope you. And Bertie will be remembered not as the Taoiseach who fought for peace in the North, but as the Taoiseach who brought Ireland back down again, the leader who took a shotgun and fired it at the Celtic Tiger at point-blank range. Not so appealing, eh Bertie?

As Brian Farrell said last night though, there's an election in sight. Up until now, I've never really had a beef I could argue with the canvassers that came to my door. Now I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to send them away and tell them that until my TD and my MEP call to my door, they're not getting my vote. And if and when the TD and the MEP do call to my door, I'm going to rip them a new one. Oh, they're going to sing for their supper this time...

adam

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 5:10pm

Originally posted by dahamsta:

Is it possible, is it at all possible that the government has pulled the wool over our eyes and in actual fact has an endgame in sight?

Is this the same government that brought us the Nice treaty fiasco ? hehehe :P

And if and when the TD and the MEP do call to my door, I'm going to rip them a new one. Oh, they're going to sing for their supper this time...

daHamsta, what a lovely image you've planted in my mind of TD's and MEP's getting mauled

... mmmmmmmmm

But on a serious note, it'd be interesting to see what would happen if the regulators were let off the chain on Eircon.

Would there be a repeat of the BT affair ? or would something substancial happen?

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 8:05pm

Originally posted by 80project.com:
Not much about the shocking service except to point out what we already knew as Frank Fitzgibbon said......
"Eircom are Company w/out a strategy and the board are just interested in making personal profit by selling the Company off to the highest bidder!" [paraphrasing]

This was in reply to a comment made by Farrel that very little is said about what the new owners will actually do with the assets. Shane Ross then made a remark about DSL before quickly moving on to more interesting topics.

jd · 03-08-2001 9:02pm

Originally posted by Gladiator:

its the same with this 20% esb price rise

you really haven't a clue- read up a bit before you start stating your ill informed opinions as fact
jd

dahamsta · 03-08-2001 9:30pm

Sidebar: I talked to "Senator" Shane Ross on the phone once, when I was running eircon.org. The story got to The Last Word producers somehow (it also got a small mention in The Phoenix) and one of them sent me a lengthy - and interesting - diatribe complaining about the situation, but unfortunately it never go on the air. Anyway, somehow I got Ross's phone number and I gave him a tinkle, and from the start it was obvious he didn't give a toss about the "cause", he just wittered on about it being a "fun piece" and that he might deem it worthy of a mention in his column. Shane Ross isn't the fighter for the people he makes himself out as at all, he's just a self-serving twat like the rest of them. Shane Ross can go and represent someone else as far as I'm concerned. He won't be representing anyone only himself anwyay.

adam

LegacyUser · 03-08-2001 11:04pm

Originally posted by jd:
you really haven't a clue- read up a bit before you start stating your ill informed opinions as fact
jd

Clear Flame bait, but that a side what are you talking about, i know the price of fule has gone up but and esb profite are down, but do you really think its coincidence that they ask for this rise while plaining to cut jobs,

dont be so bloody offencive

LegacyUser · 04-08-2001 11:33pm

Originally posted by dahamsta:
Shane Ross isn't the fighter for the people he makes himself out as at all, he's just a self-serving twat like the rest of them.

Excuse my ignorance (and straying from topic .. Sorry guys!) but who is this Shane Ross punter?

dahamsta · 05-08-2001 12:46am

http://www.shane-ross.ie/

LegacyUser · 05-08-2001 8:41am

what do yo uexpect from an Independent and a member of the Senate no less,

LegacyUser · 05-08-2001 10:21am

Originally posted by dahamsta:
http://www.shane-ross.ie/

How ironic when you click on the "agenda" link it comes up...
"still under construction and will be updated shortly"

Is that figuratively or literally ??

I'm actually quite suprised his site so poor. He generally never shuts up in the real world. I would have thought the cyberworld would have been the perfect mouthpiece for him!

80p.

dahamsta · 05-08-2001 1:41pm

Which demonstrates a point admirably 80p - Irish politicians still haven't grasped the importance, convenience and possibilities of the Internet.

adam

[This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 05-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 05-08-2001 5:14pm

Very True Adam.
I think its only the US politicians w/ mega bucks who use the Internet to its fullest. If Irish politicians used the web more for canvassing they'd soon realise what a rip off all those pointless mail shots their sending off to the printers are!! (not to mention saving our environment)

All the TD's sites are very general and non-specific.
BTW I remember clicking on this link for Anne Widdecombe MP-
http://www.annwiddecombemp.com/
Theres a classic section for the "Kids" (Widdy Web)& Anne @ Home w/ her Cats!!

I mean the Internet is the Perfect medium to actually get your core policies across to the Public w/out having to wade through the nicey nice chit-chat that distracts from the message when they go to meet ppl on the doorsteps!

AFAIK its generally volunteers who design and maintain their websites- When in fact politicians should be prioritising this medium and realising in effect it is their face to the nation!!

80p.
SAVE CHIP !!

Bard · 05-08-2001 5:49pm

Originally posted by Gladiator:
what do yo uexpect from an Independent and a member of the Senate no less,

Personally, I expect a lot from them - more than it seems you expect from them - and also, more than most of them actually deliver unfortunately.

Bard

G'wan... giz a click

eircom on Prime Time-02/08/01

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