IrelandOffline's busy day in Dublin!

LegacyUser · 05-07-2001 7:24pm #1

IrelandOffline's busy day in Dublin!

Today IrelandOffline committee members, Martin Harran, Elana Kehoe and
David Long met separately with Esat, the ODTR and Éamonn Molloy from the
Department of Public Enterprise.

ESAT Meeting:
This meeting was arranged at short notice to fit in with Martin being available
in Dublin, and had to be brief because of our meeting with the ODTR.

We pointed out to ACT (Andrew Conlon-Trant) that users are still frustrated
with the way in which ESAT mishandled the termination of accounts with
some people being disconnected who were not supposed to be. We also
pointed out that a number of people who were disconnected are continuing to
be billed. He undertook to investigate these issues as a priority and will get
back to us quickly on these matters.

ACT gave us an update on ESAT's attitude to FRIACO and he stated that
they have submitted a Statement Of Requirements (SOR) to Eircom in May.
His main concern is the timescale that this may take to achieve.

We put forward the suggestion that the disconnected users would get first
priority if a flat rate package is introduced or if ESAT starts to introduce ASDL.
He thought that this was a good suggestion, which ESAT would try to
accommodate.

ODTR Meeting:

Those present from ODTR were:

Etain Doyle – Director of Telecommunications Regulations.
Stephen Banable – Acting Head of Market Operations.
Eric Tompkins – Deputy to Stephen Banable.
Aileen Canning – LLU Project Manager.

Etain Doyle was only available for a short period of the meeting with the
ODTR during which we stated our objectives to her and she spoke of her role
as the Director of telecoms deregulation.

We went through the various points that we had prepared after feedback from
users on the boards.ie site and the ie.comp newsgroup:

FRIACO
We pointed out the importance of flat Internet access to Internet users that
we represent, and that this requires no capital investment it's simply a
question of Eircom agreeing a pricing structure with other operators. We
made a direct comparison between southern and northern Ireland where
people in the north have a 24/7 connection for £14.99 sterling per month
whereas in the south all we have is a limited off-peak package at £20 per
month which is currently under threat of withdrawal.

We also pointed out that in the OECD report and the ODTR report issued
yesterday (4/7/01) average hours online per month is stated to be an
important indicator of Internet growth. The overall figure for Ireland is
quoted at 4.5 hours a month but the 2,000 users of Esat's surf-no-limits
package who were disconnected were using in excess of 75 hours per
month. By our calculations the average use of surf-no-limits was 30-40
hours a month, which in our view proves that flat rate access is of major
importance in improving Internet usage. Their response was that they had
met their obligations in providing the 1892/1893 numbers. It is now down
to the operators to negotiate with Eircom. They confirmed that Esat have
submitted an SOR (Statement Of Requirements) to Eircom.

The ODTR has no direct role to play at this stage of commercial
negotiations until either the negotiations break down or there is a request
from either of the parties to intervene. Although they have no statutory
rights to intervene at this stage they have a watching brief at this time and
are endeavouring to be proactive in anticipating problems.

LLU
We asked why no action has been taken against Eircom even though the
legislation has been in place since the start of the year. Their response
was similar to the FRIACO response in that they can only intervene when
an operator has specifically requested LLU and Eircom has failed to
oblige. Again they confirmed that Esat and one other operator have
applied for LLU and the ODTR have a watching brief on this. We were
quite impressed with Aileen Canning's comments regarding the progress
of this and that she is in daily contact with the relevant parties on all sides.
She also confirmed that co-location agreements between Esat and Eircom
are at advanced stages, which we find hopeful.

Digital Access Carrier Select (DACS)
We brought up the presence of DACS boxes on many lines throughout the
country. Aileen Canning stated that Eircom is obliged to make the line
acceptable for broadband when requested to do so by an OLO.

Prices
The ODTR stated that this is an area in which they have extensive powers.
If, in their view, Eircom are charging excessive prices they will directly
intervene. They gave what they had already done in relation to LLU pricing
as a specific example of intervention. Eircom had previously released a
price of €32.50 but the ODTR intervened and set the wholesale monthly
line rental price at €13.53. This provoked Eircom into legal action, but
Eircom have agreed to work with this price pending the outcome of the
legal action. We also mentioned download limits which may be introduced
on the live ADSL roll out in September, as Eircom have imposed a limit on
the trial users of 1 gigabyte of data per month. The ODTR were not aware
of this capping and said they will investigate it.

NTL
They stated that NTL's cable license carries no obligation for Internet
access. At the end of March NTL had failed to meet their schedule for the
roll out of digital services, but under the current legislation NTL have until
September to meet that obligation. At that point the ODTR will review the
exclusivity of their license.

Consultation
We asked if they would consider giving IrelandOffline an on going roll in
their consultative process. They said that they already have a body
representing small businesses and individuals and they were concerned
that enlarging this group might weaken its effectiveness. They will however
consider giving us a roll on it. They also stated that they have an open
door policy and would like to meet us in the future in our own rights as an
organisation.

Legislation
We asked if there were any specific areas of legislation that they would
like to see included in the Minister's review later this year. They referred to
the areas of enforcement and penalties and gave us an example that the
only penalties which they can impose are a fine of £1,500 or a complete
revocation of license which is unrealistic in the case of Eircom.

Conclusion
Overall we felt it was a useful meeting, in that we now have a better
understanding of the exact powers and limitations of the ODTR. We now
realise that there is a lot going on in the background in relation to further
development of Internet access in Ireland. Our main concern is that whilst
the ODTR have a lot of powers in relation to regulations, they seem to
have very little power to ensure that these are implemented in a time scale
that we could consider reasonable.

Meeting with Éamonn Molloy, Assistant Secretary
(Telecommunications), Department of Public Enterprise.

This was an informal follow up meeting to our initial meeting with Éamonn
Molloy two weeks ago. We brought him up to date on our activities and on
our meeting with the ODTR in particular. Éamonn confirmed that the
Minister is taking an active interest in our progress and he himself felt that
we were approaching things in a very effective manner and making an
impact.

We expressed our disappointment at the fact that we have now met all the
key players except Eircom who have not even acknowledged our request
for a meeting. He seemed a little surprised and took note of this.

[This message has been edited by Dangger (edited 06-07-2001).]

Bard · 05-07-2001 7:56pm

Well done, lads. This news item will be posted on the irelandoffline.com site as soon as I get a chance (am currently rebuilding my system after a major crash)...

The ball is still rolling and this is further fuel for our upcoming meeting.

Bard

First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

LegacyUser · 05-07-2001 10:57pm

Well done Martin, Elana and David!!

It's nice to see that there IS movement in the net access area, albeit slow.

Well done.

Mike

LegacyUser · 05-07-2001 11:12pm

Originally posted by Bard:
Well done, lads.

and lass

LegacyUser · 05-07-2001 11:18pm

Here's what I think.

Originally posted by Dangger:

FRIACO
...
It is now down
to the operators to negotiate with Eircom. They confirmed that Esat have
submitted an SOR (Statement Of Requirements) to Eircom.

The ODTR has no direct role to play at this stage of commercial
negotiations until either the negotiations break down or there is a request
from either of the parties to intervene. Although they have no statutory
rights to intervene at this stage they have a watching brief at this time and
are endeavouring to be proactive in anticipating problems.

I wonder does the ODTR see the pointlessness in negotiating with a monopoly? As the Internet becomes more important, Eircom will be able to raise these prices to what ever they wish. If Eircom don't agree with flat-rate internet they can simply specify absurdly high prices.

LLU
We asked why no action has been taken against Eircom even though the
legislation has been in place since the start of the year. Their response
was similar to the FRIACO response in that they can only intervene when
an operator has specifically requested LLU and Eircom has failed to
oblige. Again they confirmed that Esat and one other operator have
applied for LLU and the ODTR have a watching brief on this.

More negotiating? LLU is supposed to be done on a cost basis. What is a watching brief? And if the ODTR do intervene, what power do they have? Is there any point in an OLO requesing the ODTR to interve?

Digital Access Carrier Select (DACS)
We brought up the presence of DACS boxes on many lines throughout the
country. Aileen Canning stated that Eircom is obliged to make the line
acceptable for broadband when requested to do so by an OLO.

What about when an ordinary user wants a decent line? I had to get an ISDN line because of poor PSTN quality.

NTL
They stated that NTL's cable license carries no obligation for Internet
access.

Why is this? The whole purpose of forcing Eircom to sell Cablelink was to end Eircom's monopoly over the local loop. The ODTR could have insisted on upgrading to two-way cable to facilitate this. Instead they only requirements were for Digital TV. They also prevented Eircom from supplying video over the local loop. This resulted in Eircom retaining it's local loop monopoly and NTL gaining a TV distribution monopoly with very little incentive to upgrade. The ODTR have divided up the tasks of TV and phone between NTL and Eircom. If the companies themselves did this they could be reported to the competition authority.

At the end of March NTL had failed to meet their schedule for the
roll out of digital services, but under the current legislation NTL have until
September to meet that obligation. At that point the ODTR will review the
exclusivity of their license.

So what was the point of the March deadline?

Consultation
We asked if they would consider giving IrelandOffline an on going roll in
their consultative process. They said that they already have a body
representing small businesses and individuals and they were concerned
that enlarging this group might weaken its effectiveness.

What is this body? Are they independent or are they hand-picked by the ODTR. Are they they same people who respond to surveys?

I think the committee was right to meet with the ODTR in a non-confrontational manner but at some point these issues will need to be addressed.

Eircom's local loop was built up over generations by the Government. It was subsidised by the public during a time when no competition was allowed and yet the ODTR think that other companies should negotiate with this company. Eircom is now about to be sold to a consortium of US bankers. I don't think they will have the country's interests at heart.

Thanks for getting this far and keep up the good work! It's good to know where we stand.

LegacyUser · 05-07-2001 11:28pm

Originally posted by Skeptic1:
Here's what I think.

Originally posted by Dangger:

FRIACO
...
It is now down
to the operators to negotiate with Eircom. They confirmed that Esat have
submitted an SOR (Statement Of Requirements) to Eircom.

The ODTR has no direct role to play at this stage of commercial
negotiations until either the negotiations break down or there is a request
from either of the parties to intervene. Although they have no statutory
rights to intervene at this stage they have a watching brief at this time and
are endeavouring to be proactive in anticipating problems.


I wonder does the ODTR see the pointlessness in negotiating with a monopoly? As the Internet becomes more important, Eircom will be able to raise these prices to what ever they wish. If Eircom don't agree with flat-rate internet they can simply specify absurdly high prices.


LLU
We asked why no action has been taken against Eircom even though the
legislation has been in place since the start of the year. Their response
was similar to the FRIACO response in that they can only intervene when
an operator has specifically requested LLU and Eircom has failed to
oblige. Again they confirmed that Esat and one other operator have
applied for LLU and the ODTR have a watching brief on this. 

More negotiating? LLU is supposed to be done on a cost basis. What is a watching brief? And if the ODTR do intervene, what power do they have? Is there any point in an OLO requesing the ODTR to interve?

Digital Access Carrier Select (DACS)
We brought up the presence of DACS boxes on many lines throughout the
country. Aileen Canning stated that Eircom is obliged to make the line
acceptable for broadband when requested to do so by an OLO.

What about when an ordinary user wants a decent line? I had to get an ISDN line because of poor PSTN quality.

NTL
They stated that NTL's cable license carries no obligation for Internet
access.


Why is this? The whole purpose of forcing Eircom to sell Cablelink was to end Eircom's monopoly over the local loop. The ODTR could have insisted on upgrading to two-way cable to facilitate this. Instead they only requirements were for Digital TV. They also prevented Eircom from supplying video over the local loop. This resulted in Eircom retaining it's local loop monopoly and NTL gaining a TV distribution monopoly with very little incentive to upgrade. The ODTR have divided up the tasks of TV and phone between NTL and Eircom. If the companies themselves did this they could be reported to the competition authority. The fact that there are no cable modems in Dublin has affected Internet access throughout the country. Chorus now appear to be stalling their work in Cork.

At the end of March NTL had failed to meet their schedule for the
roll out of digital services, but under the current legislation NTL have until
September to meet that obligation. At that point the ODTR will review the
exclusivity of their license.

So what was the point of the March deadline?

Consultation
We asked if they would consider giving IrelandOffline an on going roll in
their consultative process. They said that they already have a body
representing small businesses and individuals and they were concerned
that enlarging this group might weaken its effectiveness.


What is this body? Are they independent or are they hand-picked by the ODTR. Are they they same people who respond to surveys?

Eircom's local loop was built up over generations by the Government. It was subsidised by the public during a time when no competition was allowed and yet the ODTR think that other companies should negotiate with this company. Eircom is now about to be sold to a consortium of US bankers. I don't think they will have the country's interests at heart. Bad things will happen but we can be sure that the ODTR will accept no responsibility.

I think the committee was right to meet with the ODTR in a non-confrontational manner but at some point these issues will need to be addressed.

Thanks for getting this far and keep up the good work! It's good to know where we stand.

LegacyUser · 06-07-2001 12:00am

Originally posted by Skeptic1:
I wonder does the ODTR see the pointlessness in negotiating with a monopoly?

It is not the ODTR's job to carry out the negotiations. If, however, the negotiations break down, or if either party requests it, then ODTR can intervene - this seems reasonable to me.

As the Internet becomes more important, Eircom will be able to raise these prices to what ever they wish. If Eircom don't agree with flat-rate internet they can simply specify absurdly high prices.[

NO!! The ODTR were very firm on this point, if Eircom tries to charge excessive prices, the ODTR has right to stop them as in LLU where ODTR set price for LLU at roughly one third of what Eircom asked for. Eircom can challenge ODTR's ruling but have to abide by the ODTR price while legal action is pending.

What is a watching brief? 

ODTR were making point that whilst they have no legal right to interfere in negotiations until breakdown or request, they do try to be proactive by following negotiations, trying to anticipate problems, and 'encouraging' parties to resolve differences themselves.

And if the ODTR do intervene, what power do they have? 

Didn't get into this in time available to us, perhaps it's something we should seek clarification on at next meeting

Digital Access Carrier Select (DACS)...What about when an ordinary user wants a decent line? I had to get an ISDN line because of poor PSTN quality.

Again, we didn't get into this

They stated that NTL's cable license carries no obligation for Internet
access. Why is this?

This is how the licensing was set up - not sure but wasn't this before ODTR was up ?

So what was the point of the March deadline? 

Under the legislation March was the first review point and they were allowed a 6 month 'catch up' period.

What is this body? Are they independent or are they hand-picked by the ODTR. 

They said it was a group of about 20 representing various interest groups including small business and residential users but didn't say how they were selected. I'm not sure but I have a 'feeling' that the residential people may have been nominated by the Telephone Users Council. This group, BTW, is for all issues including telephone and post, not specifically Internet.

Please note that I am not setting out to defend ODTR in above comments, it's just that I feel it is extremely important that we have an accurate understanding of exactly what the ODTR can and cannot do within the remit of their regulatory powers.

If we feel that they are not carrying out the task they are charged with doing then we definitely must challenge them on it.

If they cannot take action because they do not have the power, then it is not their fault - we must lobby the government to give them the power.

Martin Harran

[This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 06-07-2001).]

dahamsta · 06-07-2001 12:57am

I only have one comment at this time, on one matter that sticks in my mind (and in my throat):

I find it VERY hard to believe that the ODTR has not received complaints on some of the matters they say they need to hear a complaint about. In fact, I would go so far as to say that they are skirting the issue by phrasing it like that. Complaints have been made.

I don't know, I realise the meeting with Ireland Offline was constructive, but I'm more and more convinced that the ODTR is either an impotent or a lackadaisical organisation with regard to their brief. I'm more inclined to believe it's the former, as I get the impression they work very hard. But what are they working hard AT? Monitoring? Heads-up ODTR, you can monitor Eircom until the cows come home, you have to do something.

The schedules and timetables are a sham. The local loop needs to be unbundled now. The only thing stopping the process is Eircom, and the ODTR needs to put on their Doctor Marten's and STOMP on them, HARD.

I dunno, I'm just sick to death of hearing excuse after excuse, and guff and more guff. It's politics, and it's the kind of politics that makes me sick.

All that being said, this is no reflection on the efforts of the Ireland Offline people. Again, you're doing sterling work, keep it up. Next time though, how about bringing a couple of bouncers along in tow?

adam

LegacyUser · 06-07-2001 1:15am

Thank you for clarifying those points. I feel, however, that the idea that ISPs should negotiate from a position of total weakness with Eircom (in a position of total strength) is unreasonable. It simply delays the inevitable intervention by the ODTR.

There may well be a reasonable price for FRIACO access, but this will never be arrived at through negotiation.

There was such a period of negotiation for LLU which broke down even though LLU was supposed to be settled on a cost basis and legislation had been put in place to that effect. Essentially, there was a correct price for LLU and this could have been worked out by consultants or the ODTR themselves.

FRIACO, on the other hand, has no legislation behind it and does not need to be supplied at cost. Eircom, when pricing it, can use any model they choose (for example the normal internet charge for 35 hours on the Internet). There is nothing unreasonable about this. Why should they "undersell" an increasingly valuable service. The only strength that the other negotiating party has is that the ODTR may intervene at some point and impose a price. Before this they have to pretend for a period that they are negotiating and then call in the ODTR. The ODTR are assuming that there is a level playing field to begin with. Given the ODTRs limited powers, it may be that the ODTR have to proceed in a diplomatic manner even though it appears frustrating and slow to outside observers. I predict that FRIACO will involve intervention by the ODTR.

I certainly understand that not every issue can be addressed in one meeting but I hope at least that a dialog has been opened.

LegacyUser · 06-07-2001 10:51am

Originally posted by dahamsta:
The schedules and timetables are a sham. The local loop needs to be unbundled now. The only thing stopping the process is Eircom, and the ODTR needs to put on their Doctor Marten's and STOMP on them, HARD.

I fully agree. The amount of red tape that the ODTR says is there is just unacceptable. I understand that they are dealing with companies who are trying to make money, but they're holding the net users hostage until it all goes through.

All that being said, this is no reflection on the efforts of the Ireland Offline people. Again, you're doing sterling work, keep it up. Next time though, how about bringing a couple of bouncers along in tow?

Hehehe..thanks. Trust me, as well, that I was the bouncer yesterday. Martin turned to me, asked if I had anything to add, and next thing I know I'm spouting off about how net access in this country is a joke and I tell people that if they move here from the US to be prepared to go back to 1995 and that I think (personally) that the paper that was released on the 4th was a total piece of crap. Of course, I was sitting next to someone who had contributed quite a bit to the paper (GULP!) but it all had to come out :-).

Trust me, you and I are not the only ones who feel that the "rules" about all this stuff is a joke.

E

LegacyUser · 06-07-2001 11:05am

Originally posted by dahamsta:
I only have one comment at this time, on one matter that sticks in my mind (and in my throat):

adam

As usual I agree with everything Adam says. The one thing that strikes me is that even if the ODTR are underresourced I have zero sympathy. The data protection commissioner is under-resourced, and he says it at every oppurtunity he gets, and bluntly says he cannot fulfill his role until it is sorted. I have great sympathy for his position and I can accept that there will be delays when dealing with them. It also means I can lobby those who hold the purse strings to do something about it.

The ODTR has (once) said they needed more people, but this was only a slight aberation from their policy of saying nothing. Etain Doyle has accepted a position as head of the European Regulatory group, and has accepted the role as postal regulator. I don't accept them sitting around telling us about maximum fines and lots of red tape as an excuse - they need to get out there and make it known, otherwise they are simply a failure.

LegacyUser · 06-07-2001 11:11am

Originally posted by hmmm:
As usual I agree with everything Adam says. The one thing that strikes me is that even if the ODTR are underresourced I have zero sympathy. The data protection commissioner is under-resourced, and he says it at every oppurtunity he gets, and bluntly says he cannot fulfill his role until it is sorted. I have great sympathy for his position and I can accept that there will be delays when dealing with them.

The competition authority has said much the same thing as well.

LegacyUser · 06-07-2001 11:50am

good job lads, keep the presure up

Bard · 07-07-2001 9:59pm

Apologies for the delay. This item now features as an article on our news section on irelandoffline.com

Cheers, y'all---

Bard

First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

LegacyUser · 08-07-2001 9:58am

Originally posted by Gladiator:
good job lads, keep the presure up

Don't worry, we will - watch this board over next few days

Martin

LegacyUser · 08-07-2001 10:22am

Well done everybody,
Martin pleaselet me know what you are standing under in your phtograph in the irish examiner lol

LegacyUser · 08-07-2001 12:06pm

Yeh lets see the photo, it wasn't on the online edition!!
80p.

<a href="http://www.80project.com">80project.com</a>

LegacyUser · 08-07-2001 12:24pm

Originally posted by richdon49:
Well done everybody,
Martin pleaselet me know what you are standing under in your phtograph in the irish examiner lol

It is sculpture outside Esat but we were careful not to identify it

Reason for the location was that due to hectic schedule on Thursday, only place I could meet photographer was on way into esat meeting.

Got him to take photo of me with Elana and David but he mustn't have thought they were pretty enough

Martin

[This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 08-07-2001).]

dahamsta · 08-07-2001 2:30pm

Trust me, as well, that I was the bouncer yesterday. Martin turned to me, asked if I had anything to add, and next thing I know I'm spouting off about how net access in this country is a joke and I tell people that if they move here from the US to be prepared to go back to 1995 and that I think (personally) that the paper that was released on the 4th was a total piece of crap. Of course, I was sitting next to someone who had contributed quite a bit to the paper (GULP!) but it all had to come out :-).

Gor, what I wouldn't *give* to have seen that!

You're right though, it has to come out. I have no doubt that organisations like the ODTR realise there is some anger out there about the state of Irish telecommunications, particularly with regard to the Internet, but I suspect they have no idea of the scale of that anger. I mean, take Ireland Offline as an example, an organisation that with no advertising or marketing whatsoever has attracted several hundred "registered" supporters in less than two months, most of whom came from just three relatively small groups: the techies and techie-wannabees on boards.ie; the ie.comp news server; and the IIU. And you can feel the anger, discontent and frustration from these people - it's a tangible emotion[1]. That emotion needs to be expressed and voiced, especially to organisations like the ODTR.

I think that half the problem is that sometimes it's all too easy for them to look at the huge amount of work they have done - and they have, there can be no doubt about that - and think that they're not doing too bad. And, if I'm honest, they're not, given the circumstances. But as I've said before, it's the circumstances that are the root of the problem. The circumstances in this case being the terrible disorganisation within the government when it comes to technology and the issues technology creates. Some people don't like to admit or believe it, but I for one believe that we're in a technological revolution right now, and I believe that the powers that be - not just in Ireland, but throughout the world - are handling it really badly.

And that's wrong, because they have no excuse for that. There are thousands of genuinely intelligent people out there who understand the issues and can see and project the problems that will be created by the advances we're making. There's people like Bill Joy, Richard Stallman, Larry Ellison, Bob Young, Tim O'Reilly, Jeff Bezos, and yes, even Bill Gates from the mighty Microsoft[2]. And that's just the big names. I don't believe for a second that they're right about everything they say, but they can see the future with a hell of a lot more clarity than our governments, and people like these should be consulted. The governments seem to think their failure is in not understanding technology, but it's not, it's their failure to recognise and accept that, and consult with people who do.

We only have to look at the three organisations mentioned in this thread to see that. The ODTR, the Competition Authority and the Data Protection Commission are all without doubt understaffed and underfunded, but more importantly they're all sorely lacking the legislative powers they need to perform their duties fairly and consistently. In this day and age of high technology, harsh business practices and real privacy concerns, it's hard to believe that that's the case. Let's look at each organisation in turn:

The ODTR should be able to come down hard and fast on Eircom to unbundle the local loop and promote competition in the marketplace they are supposed to be protecting and regulating. Yes, they've done a lot of work, but it's obvious from the fact that this organisation exists that they're not doing it effectively - consumers and business are unhappy, but again more importantly, some of them are simply unable to afford the Internet access they require. When it comes to "pleasure surfing", excuses could possibly be made, but a huge number of people use the Internet to educate themselves and run their businesses, and as it stands they are unable to do that. That's shameful when you consider the fact that lines and interconnects *are* overpriced by Eircom, because Eircom *does* have a dictionary-defined monopoly on fixed lines in Ireland.

Which brings me to the Competition Authority, which appears to have sidestepped the issue because of the existence of the ODTR. As far as I am aware, some people have talked to the Competition Authority, which has said that the problem is not theirs, because it falls under the brief of the ODTR. And that is true, but Eircom is a monopoly and an anti-competitive one at that, which is by definition part of their brief. If the ODTR is not able to handle the situation effectively - and, as I said, it's obvious that they are not - the Competition Authority should take up the reins and see to it that the monopoly on fixed lines is stamped out of existence, and fair competition is promoted in the marketplace. That is, after all, their job.

And finally we have the Data Protection Commission, an organisation not directly related to this matter, but which nonetheless has a connection in that Unsolicited Commercial Email has an affect on what we pay for Internet access. Personally, I believe that Direct Marketing is one of the true scourges of humanity, but even if you ignore my personal feelings on the matter, it is a serious problem that *is* being tackled by the Irish government, but in entirely the wrong way. The Irish government has in effect bowed to the lobbying of the direct marketing associations and accepted Opt-Out as the default for direct marketing. Which just serves to demonstrate their ignorance on the matter - a situation where the cost of direct marketing is transferred to the recipient should never, ever be allowed, under any circumstances. But I doubt they even saw that, or cared. This is something the Data Protection Commissioner should never have allowed.

Anyway, that's my rant for today. And yesterday and the day before, since I started writing this an age ago. And note that I didn't even begin to rant about the RIP Act in the UK, which the Irish government will no doubt try to force down our throats sooner rather than later; the seven year data storage legislation Europe wants to enforce on ISP's; the real concerns I have about the lack of ethics and morals surrounding corporate globalisation; and the real concerns I have about Big Brother in general.

adam

[1] You want tangible emotion? Sit next to me in a pub and mention one of three keywords: LLU, Eircom or Esat.
[2] Although I think he's going about .NET completely bass-ackwards.

[This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 08-07-2001).]

LegacyUser · 08-07-2001 2:47pm

Originally posted by dahamsta:
PS. Nearly forgot - if Eircom ever agree to meet Ireland Offline, I suggest that myself and Elena should dress up in tuxedos and stand near the door looking threatening.

You might get that chance sooner than you think - watch this space

Great post BTW

Martin

LegacyUser · 08-07-2001 7:57pm

Get your tuxedo ready, Adam - see new topic
IRELAND OFFLINE - MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!!!

Sorry about making so many posts about this but I'm sure you'll agree that we are entitled to be a *little* excited about it

Martin

[This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 08-07-2001).]

LegacyUser · 08-07-2001 10:38pm

Originally posted by dahamsta:

disorganisation within the government when it comes to technology and the issues technology creates.

Bravo Dahamsta
We need more thought out and intellectually provocative contributions here. We need to educate ourselves and in doing so educate one another.

LegacyUser · 10-07-2001 3:12pm

First of all, I'm the ODTR Project Manager for LLU referred to in the above meeting report - myself and my colleagues were happy to meet with the Ireland Off Line representatives last Thursday July 3rd.
I just wanted to correct one thing that may seem ambiguous in the meeting report which Martin has posted: specifcally with regard to NTL, the licence which we discussed was their licence for licensed programme services and this is the one which carries the exclusivity. The review of this only kicks in should NTL fail to meet their rollout of digital services by end September. In other words there is no provision for a review unless NTL don't meet their rollout obligations. It is important to make this clear

The ODTR was pleased to meet with Ireland Off Line and we are awaiting a formal response to the issues raised in the meeting, as well as a composite response to ODTR document 01/49.

We also look forward to discussing your concerns further at the meeting scheduled for 29th August.

Regards
AC

LegacyUser · 10-07-2001 4:44pm

Originally posted by dahamsta:
Gor, what I wouldn't *give* to have seen that!
<snip>
And note that I didn't even begin to rant about the RIP Act in the UK, which the Irish government will no doubt try to force down our throats sooner rather than later; the seven year data storage legislation Europe wants to enforce on ISP's; the real concerns I have about the lack of ethics and morals surrounding corporate globalisation; and the real concerns I have about Big Brother in general.

You probably would have laughed a little...thank heavens the man who was sitting next to me had a good sense of humor and encouraged us to submit answers to their telecoms doc posted on their site. :-)

As for RIP, I will fight that tooth and nail. Do a search for my name in Google and you'll see why :-).

As a total aside, in addition to IrelandOffline, we're trying to put together a Cypherpunks meeting in Dublin soon. Would you be interested?

E

LegacyUser · 10-07-2001 4:48pm

Originally posted by AC:
First of all, I'm the ODTR Project Manager for LLU referred to in the above meeting report - myself and my colleagues were happy to meet with the Ireland Off Line representatives last Thursday July 3rd.
I just wanted to correct one thing that may seem ambiguous in the meeting report which Martin has posted: specifcally with regard to NTL, the licence which we discussed was their licence for licensed programme services and this is the one which carries the exclusivity. The review of this only kicks in should NTL fail to meet their rollout of digital services by end September. In other words there is no provision for a review unless NTL don't meet their rollout obligations. It is important to make this clear

The ODTR was pleased to meet with Ireland Off Line and we are awaiting a formal response to the issues raised in the meeting, as well as a composite response to ODTR document 01/49.

We also look forward to discussing your concerns further at the meeting scheduled for 29th August.

Regards
AC

I was going to try to snip this down, but it's better left alone :-).

AC, thanks for posting on here. It's great to know your office is looking at the posts.

Thanks for clearing up what we didn't quite make clear. That should answer any questions people have had.

We're looking forward to seeing you at the seminar on the 29th as well. And we're working on the responses to the 1/49 doc now :-).

Elana Kehoe

dahamsta · 10-07-2001 5:59pm

thank heavens the man who was sitting next to me had a good sense of humor and encouraged us to submit answers to their telecoms doc posted on their site. :-)

Sad an' all as it is, that's my bedtime reading at the moment. I found myself arguing with Etain Doyle in my head even before I got to the questions. Some of the results of previous surveys and consultations are really badly misrepresented. I'm dreading writing my response, it's going to be HUGE!

As for RIP, I will fight that tooth and nail. Do a search for my name in Google and you'll see why :-).

I already did. I always do, it's just one of things that comes naturally for a privacy fanatic that runs a web company (if you could call it that). Couldn't find anything particularly relevant though, so I must be spelling it wrong or summat.

As a total aside, in addition to IrelandOffline, we're trying to put together a Cypherpunks meeting in Dublin soon. Would you be interested?

Sure, although my crypto knowledge (again, loosely defined) comes almost exclusively from reading Cryptonomicon and The Code Book, and getting myself totally confused with OpenSSL, mod_ssl and PGP. Still though, I find it fascinating. I'll never truly understand it, but I "get" quantum crypto, which I'm quite chuffed about.

Anyway, let me know - if I can make it up I'll be there.

adam

[This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 10-07-2001).]

LegacyUser · 10-07-2001 9:59pm

I second previous commendation to AC from the ODTR actually getting involves directly with the discussion.

I'm wondering whether the real reason things aren't going as quick as we'd like is cause none of the potential providers have much enthusiasm for the service cos maybe it's no so financially enticing as we'd like to think.

On the other hand, the government have caused this mess by selling off eircom in the first place. When it subsequently emerges that LLU is required for the general good, the govt must force eircom to provide this if they are the holders of the LL, or re-nationalise the thing. It's *not* up to 3rd party private enterprises to make this happen, which is the way it's set up at present.

LegacyUser · 10-07-2001 10:51pm

Originally posted by Fergus:
I'm wondering whether the real reason things aren't going as quick as we'd like is cause none of the potential providers have much enthusiasm for the service cos maybe it's no so financially enticing as we'd like to think.

However, eighteen months ago, plenty of money was available and it was spent on broadband projects around the world - for some reason not in Ireland.

On the other hand, the government have caused this mess by selling off eircom in the first place. When it subsequently emerges that LLU is required for the general good, the govt must force eircom to provide this if they are the holders of the LL, or re-nationalise the thing. It's *not* up to 3rd party private enterprises to make this happen, which is the way it's set up at present.

At present the playing field is not level so private enterprises aren't interested and therefore we're left with whatever Eircom thinks we should have.

LegacyUser · 10-07-2001 11:21pm

Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:

They stated that NTL's cable license carries no obligation for Internet
access. Why is this? 

This is how the licensing was set up - not sure but wasn't this before ODTR was up ?

I should have phrased the question differently. What I wanted to know was why the obligation on NTL avoided the mention of two-way cable. Instead, the obligation is to do with digitally compressed TV. I would love the answer to this.

I beleive it was the ODTR that drafted the regulation. I may be wrong. Whoever it was, it goes against the whole reason for forcing Telecom (now Eircom) to sell cablelink which is that it should provide local loop competition to Eircom's local loop.

I think it would be good to have representatives from Forfas, IBEC, the Information Society Commission and the National Competivness Council at the seminar (or some combination thereof). They identified a lot of the issues I'm now pointing out back in 1998. A lot of their recommendations seem to have been ignored or distorted. As dahamsta said, the competition authority would be good too.

It is not my desire to have a go at the ODTR, it is simply to get at the truth. Knowing why we are in the current situation will help us determine the best way out.

LegacyUser · 11-07-2001 12:36am

Originally posted by ekehoe:
I was going to try to snip this down, but it's better left alone :-).

AC, thanks for posting on here. It's great to know your office is looking at the posts.

Thanks for clearing up what we didn't quite make clear. That should answer any questions people have had.

We're looking forward to seeing you at the seminar on the 29th as well. And we're working on the responses to the 1/49 doc now :-).

Elana Kehoe

Elana, I have to say once again that yourself, Martin and the rest of our representatives deserve a huge amount of praise for what you have achieved thus far. The work that you people have put into irelandoddline is obviously paying off as we now know that the ODTR is reading this webpage. It would be nice if people from the telecom groups who read this page would acknowledge their presence as well; I mean we know that they must be here once in a while, even if it only out of curiosity.
Anyway well done!

LegacyUser · 11-07-2001 7:02pm

Originally posted by Skeptic1:
]Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:
They stated that NTL's cable license carries no obligation for Internet
access. Why is this? This is how the licensing was set up - not sure but wasn't this before ODTR was up ?

I should have phrased the question differently. What I wanted to know was why the obligation on NTL avoided the mention of two-way cable. Instead, the obligation is to do with digitally compressed TV. I would love the answer to this.

I beleive it was the ODTR that drafted the regulation. I may be wrong. Whoever it was, it goes against the whole reason for forcing Telecom (now Eircom) to sell cablelink which is that it should provide local loop competition to Eircom's local loop.

I think it would be good to have representatives from Forfas, IBEC, the Information Society Commission and the National Competivness Council at the seminar (or some combination thereof). They identified a lot of the issues I'm now pointing out back in 1998. A lot of their recommendations seem to have been ignored or distorted. As dahamsta said, the competition authority would be good too.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm getting better at quoting this stuff :-).

IIRC, it was before the ODTR was set up. There's a good chance I'm not remembering right, but that did come up in the meeting.

As for other groups at the seminar...well, we do want them all to talk. If we get too many groups, we might end up with just sound bites instead of some hard discussions. The groups you mention above are VERY good choices, but I think getting the major players in a room with us first, and then we can talk to the groups above about what the players said.

I'm going to add one group...the ASTI. They are hit heavy by the lack of affordable net access. Teaching the next level of comp sci engineers is key, especially when there is so much demand for them.

E

[This message has been edited by ekehoe (edited 11-07-2001).]

LegacyUser · 11-07-2001 7:05pm

Originally posted by obewan:
Elana, I have to say once again that yourself, Martin and the rest of our representatives deserve a huge amount of praise for what you have achieved thus far. The work that you people have put into irelandoddline is obviously paying off as we now know that the ODTR is reading this webpage. It would be nice if people from the telecom groups who read this page would acknowledge their presence as well; I mean we know that they must be here once in a while, even if it only out of curiosity.
Anyway well done!

Maybe I'm not getting quoting right :-)

I do know that many more people read this forum than post. Besides, if one of us stood up and said "I work for Esat", it would be hard to not rip into them, wouldn't it? :-)

As long as they keep up with what's said here (now that most of the players (barring Eircom, who still don't really get it) know about this), I don't care who they are. :-)

E

IrelandOffline's busy day in Dublin!

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