pop a cap in the caps ass.

fisty

I was reading in the other thread on eircom halving their prices on istream that some people are not going to get adsl at all until the cap is completely removed from affordable packages.

I for one am in the same boat as I intend giving istream the finger until I can download what i was, when i want, as much as I want.

The rest of europe can do this. Period.

Either Eircom give a valid excuse for the cap, or they never get me to hook up to dsl.

Could I also get a head count of who outright refuses to get adsl until the cap is gone?

Why can the rest of europe not have a cap but of course our telco can't stop itself squeezing even more money out of the consumer?

Why can't the Irish just for once get a fair deal like telcos in neighbouring countries give their companies?

Eircom?
Explain yourself.

the Guru

Both Eircom and Esat have a 4g cap on there Res packages I think this is so people dont abuse the system Like the no limits.

Fair enough you have you opinion you must download a lot of information but for someone like my self that would only want faster internet it will be suitable for and after the 1st month when the novelty wares off it would be less downloading for me.

Why can't the Irish just for once get a fair deal like telcos in neighbouring countries give their companies?

Dsl is only a new produact in Ireland and like everything else in time the price will come down.

I agree with you But its not only DSL theres Food Drink property Cigerettes all hirer here and the bubble is going to burst very soon and we will see who is got who over a barrell then.

My guess is you will be waiting a long time.............

bk

This issue has already been discussed to death in other threads.

I believe most people would agree that Eircoms cap is not about quality of service (remember you can still go over the cap), rather it is all about making sure they still have a per unit charging (now data instead of time). This is my biggest problem, people still won't be able to budget accurately for their net access, according to numerous surveys, the flat rate cost of DSL is one of its biggest sellers to Joe and Jane Public.

Bandwidth hogs can be dealt with in other ways such as throttling, etc.

Personally while I will still get DSL either way as I will benefit from the other features of DSL

- 24/7 flat rate access
- All ways on
- faster then dialup
- better latency then dialup
- more reliable then dialup

DSL will allow me to work from home more often however I will go with the company with the most favourable cap (come on IBB, Dublin 9 needs you).

Ardmore

Originally posted by fisty
I was reading in the other thread on eircom halving their prices on istream that some people are not going to get adsl at all until the cap is completely removed from affordable packages.

It's not a cap, it's an allowance. You get 3G (or 4) free with your subscription, and you have to pay for anything over that (except that they apparently haven't charged anyone yet).

I for one am in the same boat as I intend giving istream the finger until I can download what i was, when i want, as much as I want.

No problem. Just get your cheque book out!

Either Eircom give a valid excuse for the cap, or they never get me to hook up to dsl.

Oh, I'm sure that has them quaking in their boots

Personally, if I have to choose between a "capped" 50:1 service, and an uncapped one, I want the capped version - there'll be some chance that I can actually get online to browse and use the web, without being drowned out by the
10% who use 90% of the bandwidth.

Lemming

Originally posted by fisty

You would prefer to get less for your money then?
Oh, now I understand, you're stupid!
And there was me thinking you had a point...

Actually he has a point there fisty. If there was an uncapped service at a contention ratio of, say 50:1, it is entirely conceivable that he might not be able to get any sort of decent transfer rates because one or two users have left KaZaa on downloading 24/7.

Do you actually know the implication of contention ratios fisty? I'm just curious.

My point on the matter (of caps) is this. It's not unreasonable to have service providers want to control users usage of their network bandwidth, but caps need to be reasonable. Eircom's caps are not there to provide QoS (Quality of Service). They are there as a new form of metered billing. THAT's the difference between a cap and an eircom cap

Washout

Originally posted by Ardmore

Personally, if I have to choose between a "capped" 50:1 service, and an uncapped one, I want the capped version - there'll be some chance that I can actually get online to browse and use the web, without being drowned out by the
10% who use 90% of the bandwidth. [/B]

I agree with Ardmore entirely. You can understand if in business you need to have unlimited download requirments but this is a residential offering and to be fair to Eircon they have a duty to satisfy everybody...The often dont achieve this but hey this cap is simply there to provide a decent quality service to all who install it... I have had a number of arguements with people saying that the take up for dsl is not much so why should they impose this download cap now... I know when it was expensive the cap was a bit unfair but now that dsl is now going to be affordable a cap is a solution to aviod the hogs taking up bandwidth that everyone should have an oppurtunity of sharing fairly

Ardmore

Originally posted by fisty
You would prefer to get less for your money then?

I could rent a whole house in many places for less than the cost of a 1 bedroom apartment in Dublin. But I choose to live in Dublin, so I end up getting less for my money. Life sometimes works that way.

Oh, now I understand, you're stupid!

Aithnion ciarog ciarog eile.

If it's stupid not to want to subsidise dips like you, so be it....

the Guru

It's not a cap, it's an allowance. You get 3G (or 4) free with your subscription, and you have to pay for anything over that (except that they apparently haven't charged anyone yet).

They will be charging now for the Cap @ around €15 per Gig

bk

Originally posted by Lemming
My point on the matter (of caps) is this. It's not unreasonable to have service providers want to control users usage of their network bandwidth, but caps need to be reasonable. Eircom's caps are not there to provide QoS (Quality of Service). They are there as a new form of metered billing. THAT's the difference between a cap and an eircom cap

That is exactly my point, my objection to Eircoms cap is that it is a continuation of their profiteering at users expense and not QoS. Eircom are just using the QoS argument as a cover and some people seem to be falling for it hook, line and sinker.

If Eircom where really worried about QoS then they would be looking at a cap + throttling or just simply a cap you couldn't go over.

My worry is for Joe Public who will sign up for DSL without knowing (or understanding) the cap, and then suddenly get slammed with a massive bill when they where expecting to pay "flat rate". This could potentially turn people off DSL.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by fisty
I for one am in the same boat as I intend giving istream the finger until I can download what i was, when i want, as much as I want.

The rest of europe can do this. Period.

After reading this, I'm almost certain now, that we won't be getting uncapped ADSL from either Eircom (we know this anyway, of course) or any of the ISPs who may choose to provide DSL over the bitstream wholesale product.

This is a great shame as many light users won't be signing up for broadband because these users may well be put off by the need to monitor their download amounts.

Nevermind.

Ardmore

Originally posted by bk
Eircom are just using the QoS argument as a cover and some people seem to be falling for it hook, line and sinker.

Are Eircom are using this QoS argument? Do you have a URL for that?

As far as I know, Eircom just say that they provide a "download allowance" with their "cheaper" plans. They don't make any attempt to justify that approach.

Ardmore

Originally posted by SkepticOne
This is a great shame as many light users won't be signing up for broadband because these users may well be put off by the need to monitor their download amounts.

While I still have some reputation left to maintain I should point out that I fully agree with SkepticOne on this point. If Eircom do plan to use this "allowance" as a revenue source, rather than simply a stick to beat resource hogs with, they better make a tool available to make it simple and obvious how much bandwidth has been used.

You only have to look at the mobile market to see the parallels - "ordinary" people didn't use mobiles when they first came out, in part because they we're scared by the potential of huge "surprises" when the bills came. When pre-paid packages arrived, the same people were prepared to pay exhorbitant per-minute rates, because they were fully in control of their costs.

It's not a perfect analogy - the "pre-paid" market in the US took the form of monthly calling plans, which included an "allowance" of call minutes, but which were typically a lot more expensive than a €10 or €20 top-up used here. In some ways, the Eircom ADSL pricing, with a download allowance, is a bit like the US model.

Of course, SMS played a big role in the greater success of the mobile market in Europe - will IM do the same for ADSL?

fisty

Do you actually know the implication of contention ratios fisty? I'm just curious

yes I know about contention ratios etc. but I cannot condone any sort of cap if its supposed to be true broadband.
Fair enough - throttle users that way overstep the mark but its still not going to be true broadband until we don't have to worry about our normal usage - and i don't see downloading gigs of divx/mp3/warez etc normal usage. The Cap they're offering is easily used up.
Broadband = No Cap.
Period.

Rags

Most of the people talking about caps havent a clue. Those "for" the cap, have any of you ever actually used DSL? I doubt it. Every other western country that provides dsl can do so without caps and with a great quality of service. All a cap will do is feed eircoms pockets more , heavy users will just ignore the cap and go over it or go to another reseller of the service who allows a large download allowance so it will have no effect on service quality.

If there was a deterioration because of heavy users then they could implement bandwidth throttling like the sat isps do, thats the only thing that would help. For those "all for this cap" zip it before you make yourselfs look more stupid.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Rags
Most of the people talking about caps havent a clue.

Including yourself?

Those "for" the cap, have any of you ever actually used DSL?

I'm not for this non-existant "cap" you keep going on about. But I don't have any significant problem with a 4G "allowance". The proposed cost of additional usage is ridiculuous, but it doesn't overly concern me, because I don't expect to use more than 4G a month.

And yes, I have used DSL - I was on Eircoms trial towards the end of 2001, and told them to take it away when they announced that it was going to cost over €100 a month. And even with high speed internet access in work (do people really use boards.ie on a dialup-connection - uggh!) I don't bother with P2P stuff - it has no interest for me.

heavy users will just ignore the cap and go over it or go to another reseller of the service who allows a large download allowance so it will have no effect on service quality.

You haven't a clue, do you? Resellers of the bitstream service have to provide their own "backhaul". If my neighbour get's his ADSL from a different bitstream reseller, he won't be in contention with me for bandwidth.

If there was a deterioration because of heavy users then they could implement bandwidth throttling like the sat isps do, thats the only thing that would help. For those "all for this cap" zip it before you make yourselfs look more stupid.

If Eircoms low allowance makes it easier for UTV and other operators to enter the market (because they feel that they can provide a bigger allowance at the same, or a lower price), then great! That's what all you ranters are too dumb to see. If you don't like Eircoms prices, get your ADSL from someone else.

If no-one else will sell you an unlimited cap for €55, then hey, maybe bandwidth really is that much more expensive here.

sceptre

Originally posted by Ardmore
10% who use 90% of the bandwidth.

Ah, that 90:10 ratio again. Psychologists have devoted reams of information and reports on it for years (even though in my day the magic ratio for everything was 85:25). It'll always be that way (actually in Kazaa land it was even worse - 98% of the files were being shared by 2%)

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Ardmore
If no-one else will sell you an unlimited cap for €55, then hey, maybe bandwidth really is that much more expensive here.

The alternate ISP will also be juggling with the 50:1 ratio provided by Eircom's bitstream product. Regardless of the cost of bandwidth, they will still have the issue of regulating usage of a shared resource and will not have the option of purchasing extra bandwidth no matter how cheap it is, so I would not draw the conclusion that if ISPs impose some sort of cap, download allowance or other regulation on users, it is because of expensive bandwidth.

Rags

QUOTE]Resellers of the bitstream service have to provide their own "backhaul". If my neighbour get's his ADSL from a different bitstream reseller, he won't be in contention with me for bandwidth. [/QUOTE]

Yes I should of said heavy users will just ignore the cap or get the unlimited offering so caps wont do anything for performance levels.

If you don't like Eircoms prices, get your ADSL from someone else.

Eircom will be the last company I would turn to for dsl , utv I would expect will have a better offering with a fairer cap of 20gb+ at least.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Rags
Eircom will be the last company I would turn to for dsl , utv I would expect will have a better offering with a fairer cap of 20gb+ at least.

Well then quit bitching about Eircoms so-called "cap". It's a non issue that is generating more heat than light!

If UTV can provide such a product, and if the market actually thinks the "cap" is an issue, then Eircom will be doing you a favour by only providing 4G in their basic package, because they will have restricted their own market, leaving more room for "the good guys" to make a living.

Ardmore

Originally posted by SkepticOne
The alternate ISP will also be juggling with the 50:1 ratio provided by Eircom's bitstream product.

There is no contention ratio between you and the DSLAM. As I understand it, Bitstream access is to the DSLAM, so the 50:1 contention ratio doesn't come into it.

Having said that, it strikes me that Eircoms "wholesale" product and Bitstream are two seperate issues. So if UTV just resells Eircoms DSL offering, then the 50:1 probably would be a factor. And capping will probably be involved. If UTV want to offer an unlimited bandwidth package, they'll probably have to go the Bitstream route, and, as far as I know, there hasn't been any talk of lowering the price of that.

Rags

Well then quit bitching about Eircoms so-called "cap". It's a non issue that is generating more heat than light

Your bitching about me bitching so whos the bigger bitch:D.

Ok seriously tho I think its important to discuss the caps , eircom have been known to browse these forums and might be influenced by what they read here. If they think their gonna lose a lost of customers with a cap that small then who knows they might change it. So we gotta bitch to make a difference sometimes and besides its fun.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Rags
Ok seriously tho I think its important to discuss the caps , eircom have been known to browse these forums and might be influenced by what they read here. If they think their gonna lose a lost of customers with a cap that small then who knows they might change it.

And if they loook at the sort of customers they're gonna lose, they might just decide that they're as well off without some of them!

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Ardmore
And capping will probably be involved. If UTV want to offer an unlimited bandwidth package, they'll probably have to go the Bitstream route, and, as far as I know, there hasn't been any talk of lowering the price of that.

Well, current bitstream offers have contention ratios associated with them. For example, currently there are two bitstream offers from Eircom, the 1Mbit/sec and the 512k/sec. Both of these have contention ratios of 24:1. There is no facility for an ISP to offer say 20:1 on any Eircom wholesale product, bitstream or otherwise.

I'm assuming, therefore, that the new bitstream associated with Eircom's 'mass market' DSL will have a 50:1 contention ratio set at the DSLAM.

Matfinn

I think the most vialbe thing to do at this stage in order to get a fair deal when it comes to net access is to emmigrate to another country, such as England or America. At least in them countries you wont have people who will rip you off any which way they can like in this country. Im talking about house prices, net access prices, price rises, and of course car insurance.


Pretty much anyone in this country who has the ability will climb over everybody else in order to look after their own greedy needs, and they dont give a flying f@ck about the people. Isnt that right Eircom?

Matt

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Ardmore
There is no contention ratio between you and the DSLAM. As I understand it, Bitstream access is to the DSLAM, so the 50:1 contention ratio doesn't come into it.

Please look at the current bitstream offering here.

Note the product descriptions on page 22.

spongebob

yep, its a ratio all right. expect the new bitstream offering to confim 50:1

SkepticOne

This means that even though international bandwidth is comparitively cheap (at least in Dublin *) to the ISP, they will be forced to offer a 50:1 contention ratio to their customers if they want to offer DSL using an Eircom bitstream service based on the new residential offering (which is still subject to regulatory approval).

ISPs in Europe are currently lobbying for a more flexible approach to wholesale DSL and bitstream but we are still years behind. In the meantime, it seems that Eircom by jumping in now with this offering, are continuing to maintain a climate of bandwidth scarcity.

[*] Google are talking about locating in Dublin. Cheap international bandwidth being cited as one of the reasons.

Dustaz

Fisty, This is not the CS board. Do not insult people like you did in your earlier post.

You wont be warned again.