Carrickmines Castle

Shorty

I hope this is the right board for this.

Basically it's the remains of a castle near Foxrock/Cabinteeley type area. The NRA and county council are trying to build a road over it. The area hasn't been fully excavated yet and it's a really interesting place. The castle was built in about 1200 and pretty much leveled by the English in 1600ish. There should be a load of bodies there but they haven't found most of them yet, just 17 ladies with axe-marks in their heads, there should be 300 or so.
I would encourage everyone to go out and just take a look at the site, it's a beautiful place and the people there will give you a tour if you ask nicely. Anyways, the farmhouse area, where the castle used to stand has been squatted by some archeology students, archeologists and other people with interest. The local people seem to be very much in support, helping out with food, paint, blankets and so on.
The land is mixed up in the flood tribunal and lots of other dodgy dealings, payoffs and back handers. It's all stuff that wont come out into the open for a few years though and by then it will be too late. Hopefully we will be able to prevent it from being destroyed. Please come out and take a look. There's loads of room for people to stay, music, good conversation, interesting ideas and lots of tea. No alcohol on site though and no drugs either.Could be the last chance to see the site but not if the Carrickminders have anything to do with it. Alrite so, see yis out there!!!

Things are starting to hot up at the moment, there's more information at:

http://www.carrickminescastle.org/

http://www.indymedia.ie/

Victor

'Carrickminders' ordered off motorway lands
From:ireland.com
Monday, 3rd February, 2003
http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/240282?view=Eircomnet

Dún Laoghaire Rathdown County Council has been granted an injunction by the High Court preventing protesters from occupying lands at Carrickmines that have been acquired for the south-eastern motorway.

Protesters have claimed the ruins of Carrickmines Castle are located on the motorway route and should not be interfered with.

But Mr Justice Paul Gilligan ruled in favour of the Council today and ordered that the injunction be posted on all entrances to the site and every 100 yards on the perimeter wall.

It is expected that the castle's perimeter wall will be removed in the coming days to make way for the new road.

The council took proceedings against two of the protesters, Mr Vincent Salafia and Mr Gordon Lucas, and other unnamed protesters, aimed at clearing the site for the construction of the road.

The council demanded that the protesters, who style themselves as "Carrickminders", stop "trespassing and interfering with the work of the county council's agents".

Last week, up to 30 protesters blocked archaeologists from removing part of a 12th-century revetted fosse (stone-lined ditch), that is to be preserved nearby. Once this is completed, work on the motorway will begin on the site.

Reacting to today's ruling the "Carrickminders" vowed to continue their fight to save the castle ruins.

"Carrickminders see today's result as a victory. We have succeeded in bringing the situation into the national and international spotlight. In addition, we have ensured that an unfinished excavation was brought closer to completion using Non-Violent Civil Disobedience. The dig is still unfinished," a statement said.

"Gordon and Vincent will continue the fight to save Carrickmines Castle, which is just beginning."

Typedef

It is expected that the castle's perimeter wall will be removed in the coming days to make way for the new road.

Welcome to Ireland, home of a rich cultural heritage, you just happen to be driving over it at 80kmh.

Shorty

Carrickminders Continue Campaign

7 February 2003
http://CarrickminesCastle.org

Carrickminders are planning a series of events in order to carry on the fight to preserve Carrickmines Castle. Now that the occupation is suspended, Carrickminders are able to focus on delivering the information, which has been collected over the last six months, to the public and the appropriate authorities. We will monitor and report activities occurring on various fronts.

On Monday February 10th, two individuals, Dominick Dun and Gordon Lucas, will seek a High Court injunction to prevent the removal of a ten-metre section of 'fosse', a walled defensive ditch, from being removed by Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown County Council. One of these individual plaintiffs, Gordon Lucas, is a Carrickminder who had been living onsite for months. While Carrickminders are not represented in this litigation, we are in close contact with the litigants, and will be reporting their progress.

The action next Monday comes in the wake of an action brought by Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown County Council in the High Court seeking an interlocutory injunction against Gordon Lucas and Vincent Salafia, two Carrickminders. On Monday 3rd of February, Gordon Lucas and Vincent Salafia, through Counsel, Colm Mac Eoghaidh, did not concede the trespass charge but consented to vacate the Castle site and have given undertakings not to return until there has been a full hearing.

Carrickminders will be holding a series of events in Dublin and around the country, such as a Public Meeting in Dun Laoghaire, concerts and a lecture series.

Contacts

Spokesman
Vincent Salafia - 087 132-3365

Other Press/Events Inquiries:
JD 087 740-9102

Shorty

Sorry about updating this late, but there is more happening today to do with the courts, and I'll post on that when I get more information.



Carrickminders Press Release

http://CarrickminesCastle.org

16th February 2003

Supreme Court Appearance Monday

Tomorrow morning at 11.00 AM, Monday 17th February, Mr. Gordon Lucas and Mr. Dominic Dunne will, through counsel Frank Callanan S.C. and Colm MacEoghaidh, B.L. petition the Supreme Court for an early hearing date for appeal. Due to the gravity of these proceedings Carrickminders took a decision not to enter the Carrickmines Castle environs. Any person entering is not representing the group.

Carrickminders have a strategy of respecting the courts wishes, now that two individuals have voluntarily put themselves at the mercy of the courts, in order to achieve the preservation of the site.

Yesterday, Saturday 15th February, an attempt was made by Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council to remove a section of medieval wall, but were prevented from doing so by Gardai. Attempts have been made again today, but the wall remains intact, with only a few stones removed, according to Dr. Sean Duffy of Trinity College Dublin.

Tomorrow, Carrickminders will hold a press conference at 1.30 PM in Trinity College Dublin. The room number will be available after 10.00 AM by calling us or Trinity College TRINITY COLLEGE NUMBER. A full statement will be made with regards to the Supreme Court Proceedings. Dr. Sean Duffy, Chairman of Friends of Medieval Dublin, will give an account of events he witnessed over the weekend at the castle site. The National Museum of Ireland, and other interested parties, have been invited to make statement.

-30-

Press Contact
Vince 087 132 3365

Shorty

Carrickminders Press Release

http://CarrickminesCastle.org

Feb 19th 2003

An Application will be heard by the Supreme Court on Friday, 21st February, 2003, from the decision of Mr. Justice Lavan in the High Court of 12 February, 2003, refusing an application for an injunction made on behalf of Mr. Gordon Lucas and Mr. Dominick Dunne.

Mr. Lucas and Mr. Dunne had sought an injunction to prevent Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and/or, its agents from demolishing, removing or in any way interfering with the National Monument at Carrickmines Castle and from excavating, digging, or otherwise disturbing the grounds around the Carrickmines Castle site.

The Appelants will be represented by Frank Callanan, S.C., Colm Mac Eoghaidh, B.L., abd Philip Lee Solicitors.

Shorty

European Commission disappointed with Irish Government failure to provide information on Carrickmines

http://derossa.com/asp/showdoc.asp?AREA=3&ID=195

2/12/2003

Dublin Labour MEP, Proinsias De Rossa, has just been told that the European Commission is "disappointed" that the Irish Government still hasn't provided information requested last October about the environmental impact of the Carrickmines road project. In response to a question posed by Proinsias De Rossa the Commission had sought information from the Irish Authorities on 1 October 2002, on whether it had complied with Directive 85/337/EEC when assessing the effects on the environment of the M50 motorway project.

"It is outrageous that more 4 months later the Government has still not replied to the Commission's enquiry, when it should have done so within a month. They have told the European Commission they haven't been able to deal with their enquiry because of "the complexity of the issues raised". But, at the same time the National Roads Authority is threatening to go ahead and cover important sections of this important heritage site with concrete.

"There is a clear threat in the Commission's reply that €74 of EU funding for this motorway project is at risk, if the Government does not cooperate with their enquiries, or is found to be in breach of the Directive covering the co-financing of this motorway project.

"The role of Minister Cullen, responsible for protecting heritage sites, is inexplicable - having failed to even acknowledge a letter of mine which was sent last October and having failed to respond properly to the European Commission. I've been on the site and seen the medieval walls and burial sites that have been found. The Carrickmines site is an important part of our cultural heritage and it would be state vandalism to bulldoze through it as the Government and National Roads Authority are intending to do."

He welcomed the Commission's declaration that it will consider the possibilities available to it, including under Article 226 of the Community Treaty, bearing in mind that Member States have a duty of co-operation under Article 10 of the Treaty and that the motorway project is the subject of Community co-financing. However time is running out and the Commission must act immediately to insist that the Government stall that section of the motorway affecting the Carrickmines heritage site pending the outcome of its enquiries.

"Sure, we need better road networks in Ireland but I am also totally confident that we have the right to insist that such a development does not wipe away our archeological treasures.

---- ---- ---- ---- ----

Dail question over removal of medieval ditch
By Alison Healy

Irish Times

The controversy over the removal of a medieval walled ditch at Carrickmines Castle in south Co Dublin is to be raised in the Dáil today by Green Party TD Mr Ciarán Cuffe.

Mr Cuffe said that the dispute over the validity of an excavation licence for the work had brought the Department of the Environment and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism "into direct conflict".

"I will be asking the Taoiseach to clarify both the role of Dúchas [the Heritage Service\] and the very public row between two of his Departments," he said.

Dúchas, which falls under the remit of the Department of the Environment, issued an excavation licence for the work, but this has been objected to by the National Museum of Ireland, which falls under the remit of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.

Dr Seán Duffy, chairman of the Friends of Medieval Dublin, said that the matter had produced "a crisis at the heart of the Cabinet".

A spokesman for Dúchas rejected the claim that two Departments were "at loggerheads" over the issue. "That's not the case at all," he said. "We are happy that the correct procedures have been followed in issuing the licence."

Work began at the weekend on the removal of the revetted fosse, or walled ditch. This is the last archaeological excavation before construction workers move in to prepare the site for construction of the South-Eastern Motorway. The removal of the fosse is painstaking and will take several days, according to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council.

Mr Eamonn O'Hare, the council's director of transportation, said that the work involved taking drawings and photographs of the wall as well as cleaning the stones and removing them one by one. The fosse would then be re-created elsewhere. He repeated his assertion that the licence was valid and said that the National Museum had been consulted.

The National Museum's keeper of antiquities, Mr Eamonn Kelly, has meanwhile repeated his belief that the licence was not valid because the museum was not consulted. "Absolutely nothing has happened to change that situation," he said.

The National Monuments Act specifies that an excavation licence can only be issued after consultation with the National Museum.

Meanwhile, Mr Proinsias De Rossa MEP said he believed that there had been a breach of the environmental impact assessment directive. If this was found to be so, EU co-funding of up to €75 million could be withdrawn and the Government could be heavily fined.

This morning, two conservationists will seek a Supreme Court hearing of their appeal against a High Court decision which rejected their request for an injunction to halt work at the site.

Mr Vincent Salafia, spokesman for the Carrickminders group, which is opposing the routing of the motorway, said that the council had been informed of the group's intention to lodge an appeal. He added: "So it is a matter of great concern to us that they are proceeding with work while they are under notice of the appeal."

Gardaí were called to the site twice over the weekend after Mr Kelly of the National Museum claimed that the work was illegal. It is understood that gardaí have sought clarification on the legal issues raised. A Garda spokeswoman said that nobody had been charged with any offence.

Shorty

Campaigners trying to save the ruins of Carrickmines Castle from destruction by Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council have won their legal challenge at the Supreme Court.

The court granted an interlocutory injunction this morning preventing the council from removing a section of the castle to make way for construction of the M50 motorway.

The court ruled that the council must prove that the castle is not a national monument before work on the site in south Co Dublin can continue.

Special consent from the National Museum and the Department of the Environment would be needed before the council could dismantle any national monument.

Speaking after this morning's ruling, campaigner Ruane McEoin said: "This is a terrific judgement, both for the people and the heritage of this country. We knew right from day one that due procedure had not been followed."

Shorty

The Supreme Court this morning granted an interlocutory injunction restraining Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council (“DLRCC”) and its agents from demolishing or removing or disfiguring, defacing, altering or in any manner injuring or interfering with the national monument and/or archaeological remains situated at the site of Carrickmines Castle without a valid consent under section 14 of the National Monuments Act, 1930 (as amended) pending a full trial in the High Court of all issues raised by the applicants. The application for the injunction was made on behalf of Dominic Dunne and Gordon Lucas by Frank Callanan, SC and Colm MacEochaidh, BL instructed by Philip Lee Solicitors.

The substantive issues raised by the Messrs. Dunne and Lucas will now fall to be determined by the High Court, with no works being carried out on the site in the meantime. No date for that hearing has been fixed. It is unlikely to take place until late March/early April at the earliest. The Supreme Court however directed that the applicants lodge their Statement of Claim, setting out the basis of their legal case, within the next seven days. In turn, DLRCC must reply to that document by means of the lodging of a formal defence, within a further seven days. Following completion of a process of disclosure of documents the parties will then be in a position to apply to the High Court for a hearing date.

The issues to be determined by the High Court will include the following key questions:

- Does the Carrickmines Castle site come within the definition of a “national monument” set out in the National Monuments Acts, 1930-1994?

- Is DLRCC required, under section 14 of the National Monuments Act, 1930, as amended, to obtain a joint consent in writing before it carries out works at the Carrickmines Castle site?

On the basis of the evidence put before it at this preliminary stage, the Supreme Court answered both questions in the affirmative. It will now be a matter for the High Court to hear more fulsome evidence, including oral evidence from expert witnesses, to determine these questions.

The Supreme Court found that DLRCC had failed to show sufficient evidence to support its claim that it would incur significant financial loss if the injunction was granted. In addition, the Court rejected the assertion made by DLRCC that the applicants had been guilty of inordinate delay in bringing its case to Court, finding instead that DLRCC had failed to respond in detail to a letter sent to it by Philip Lee Solicitors on 30 September 2002 in which DLRCC were requested to confirm whether the necessary joint consent in writing had in fact been obtained.

The next steps in the legal process involve the parties’ legal teams finalising their legal papers. At trial, Messrs. Dunne and Lucas will call on expert evidence in order to establish the status of the Carrickmines Castle site under the National Monuments Acts. Dr. Sean Duffy of Trinity College Dublin has already given evidence on affidavit on behalf of Messrs. Dunne and Lucas. It is anticipated that further experts in the field of archaeology and medieval history will now be called upon to give oral evidence on this point. It is likely that archaeologists involved in the excavation of the site to date will also be called upon to give evidence.

It should be noted that Messrs. Dunne and Lucas issued legal proceedings very much as a last resort and following the refusal of DLRCC to engage in any form of discussion regarding proposals forwarded to DLRCC by the ‘Friends of Carrickmines’ campaign. Those proposals had in fact been requested by DLRCC following a meeting earlier this year between Eamonn O’Hare, DLRCC’s Director of Transport, Dr. Sean Duffy of the ‘Friends of Carrickmines’ campaign and Vincent Salafia of the ‘Carrickminders’ group.

Dominic Dunne and Gordon Lucas would like to thank everyone involved with the ‘Carrickminders’ and ‘Friends of Carrickmines’ for their support. Your continued support will be crucial in the coming weeks and in the run up to the next hearing before the High Court when the fate of the site will ultimately be decided on.

Shorty

PRESS RELEASE

The Green Party spokesperson for Environment and Local Government, Ciarán Cuffe TD, today welcomed the Supreme Court decision on the Carrickmines Castle Site.

The Court has granted an order temporarily restraining Dún Laoghaire Rathdown Council from removing part of a medieval wall from lands at Carrickmines Castle, Co Dublin, along the route of the new south-eastern motorway.

"It is now up to the Council to prove that Carrickmines Castle is not a national monument. I hope that reason will prevail and that the Castle will be saved. It is still possible to modify the route of the road even at this late stage so that the Castle can be protected."

"I appeal to the Council to consider making changes to the road and junction layout at Carrickmines. This would be a more constructive use of their resources rather than concentrating on trying to prove that the Castle is not a national monument. I believe the archaeologists when they say that a medieval castle complex is a national monument and frankly, I have more confidence in the archaeologists' view on this than the Head of Transportation in Dún Laoghaire Rathdown Council."

"My complaint to the Garda last weekend about the activities of Dún Laoghaire Rathdown Council in dismantling the wall and fosse still stands. I am pleased that the Council have been told to cease dismantling the Castle walls."

bertiebowl

I think the so-called "Carrickminders" are a disgrace.

What gives them the right as an unelected, unaccountable body to endlessly delay a necessary motorway that will reduce air pollution and traffic congestion throughout south Dublin.

This "Taliban" have taken it upon themselves to save a few stones.......not that the stones were going to be destroyed - no merely moved a few feet to the left!!!!!!!!!!

And as for that Shorty guy - shouldn't he be banned for his copy and paste exercise with the green party press release??

Typedef

And as for that Shorty guy - shouldn't he be banned for his copy and paste exercise with the green party press release??

Nope.

Victor

Originally posted by bertiebowl
What gives them the right as an unelected, unaccountable body to endlessly delay a necessary motorway that will reduce air pollution and traffic congestion throughout south Dublin.

Teh greater problem is the inept council who appear to be breaking the law. I took a look at the site a few weeks ago and there is plenty of space to have castle and motorway. All it needs is some imagination.

bertiebowl

Sure the council are inept - tell me something I don't know - but back to my original question what gives this bunch of unelected, unaccountable do gooders the right to endlessly delay a necessary motorway that will reduce congestion, gridlock and horrendous air pollution??

bertiebowl

As Typedef has helpfully indicated that copy and paste press releases don't warrant a ban try this one for size.

PRESS RELEASE: SOUTHSIDERS AGAINST GRIDLOCK (SAG)

Speaking today Southsiders against gridlock (SAG) spokesperson Roger Caplin condemned the so-called "Carrickminders".

"What gives them the right as an unelected unaccountable body to endlessly delay a necessary motorway that will bring relief from endless congestion and air pollution that has been bringing havoc to the southside?" he commented.

Mr. Caplin went on to point out that the Carrickmines wall would only be moved a few feet to accomodate a beneficial motorway - a small sacrifice and a positive one for the environment in terms of reducing traffic congestion and air pollution.

bertiebowl

Oh - here's another one:

PRESS RELEASE: ALL DUNDRUM AGAINST POLLUTION (ADAP)

A furious spokesperson for All Dundrum Against Pollution Justin Stanley slammed the so-called "Carrickminders".

"These wasters are scrounging off the dole, while we in Dundrum spend hours trying to commute to work to pay taxes to support their lazy bone idle asses".

"A motorway will bring tremedous relief to the traffic congestion - not that those hippies living in their wig-wams at Carrickmines would know".

Mr. Stanley intends leading a protest march in the area as soon as possible

Typedef

"These wasters are scrounging off the dole, while we in Dundrum spend hours trying to commute to work to pay taxes to support their lazy bone idle asses".

What a balanced view from this particular gentleman.

Still at least he doesn't hate group (x) because they are religion (x) or ethnic group (x), no, so long as you allege 'everybody' is a welfare recipient, you can say what you damn well please.

Strangely for a demagouge, this one is particularly uncharismatic. Best to let him waffle, he's a good laugh.

Mr. Stanley intends leading a protest march in the area as soon as possible

I sincerly hope Mr. Stanley does, do that, because I will personally go and join the Carrickminders and shock horror, I have a job, I pay my taxes and more to the point I couldn't care less if some random abusive right wing nut job, derides my right to do so.

This is Ireland, and as a citizen I have a right to protest and to be honest I don't have time for the sort of vitrolic nonesense that demagouges like this spill. Let him spill it, he's only showing himself up to be ignorant, pig-headed and insular.

God I love this.

bertiebowl

PRESS RELEASE: SOUTHSIDERS AGAINST GRIDLOCK

Speaking today, Southsiders against gridock spokesperson Roger Caplin called on the government to intervene to ensure that the M50 motorway is completed on time.

"Its is high time that this motorway project was completed. The full C ring around Dublin has been under development for over 25 years. The current cost to Irish society in terms of extra pollution and lost time due to congestion following the slow development of the ring road is enormous. It is therefore essential that work on the Southern Cross route be completed on time." Mr. Caplin commented.

Mr. Caplin went further and stated, "Many of these Carrickminders are well meaning if misled people. However a minority have an anti-everything agenda. They have had their day in court and Dun Laoirghaire Co. Council has promoted an excellent compromise plan which will save the majority of the Castlemines walls. Everyone has compromised and now it is time for the road to be completed"

ENDS

Typedef

From Spokesman for yestonice.com to spokesman for "Southsiders against gridlock" (no less).

Mr Caplin sure seems to get around.

Everyone has compromised and now it is time for the road to be completed

However I happen to disagree, because I don't think there is such thing as a compromise when it comes to protecting Ireland's national heritage, of which Carrick Mines most certainly is.

Now, until Mr Caplin, becomes a cleric, his opinion is not gospel, so, neither is mine, an apt compromise I think.

Just as an aside lads : Please at least make an attempt to post a commentary with your copy & pasting of news articles.

Victor

[Being edited. ]
Just so we know what we are talking about.
http://www.dlrcoco.ie/M50new/map2.htmHow big are ADAP and SAG and are the representative or elected in any way?

Originally posted by bertiebowl
What gives them the right as an unelected unaccountable body

That the council appears to be breaking the law and destroying a national monument. While not elected (unlike Haughey or Lawlor or Lowry) the Carrickminders could be considered representative of a larger group.

Originally posted by bertiebowl
endlessly delay

The council intransigence in refusing to marginally realign the road is the cause of the delay. The road is still 18 months from completion and realignment work would probably take 4 months from planning to completion.

Originally posted by bertiebowl
necessary motorway that will bring relief from endless congestion and air pollution that has been bringing havoc to the southside?" he commented.

Actually the road is only expected to reduce traffic on the Stillorgan Dual Carriagway by about 20%. Constructing the Dundrum - Brewery Road section will have the greatest effect on traffic in Dundrum.

Victor

Map of area (from Luas sudsidy zone map). Edited with my colours added.

The castle is the blue square in the middle, with other archaelogical features also in blue. Luas in red. Roads / motorway in mustard. Footpaths / hard shoulders in white. Grassed areas in green.

http://members.boards.ie/victor/carrickmines3.gif

Shorty

I haven't been looking at this thread in a while, mainly because I have been busy but also because I haven't heard much information yet and most of it is in the courts at the moment.

Sorry for the cut and paste jobs, but it was the best way for me to keep ppl informed and quicker for me. Should I not also quote my sources? It just happened that most sources were press releases.

Typedef

Preferably post a link.

That's the paradigm, generally.

Else, quote the source of the article, plus, an opinion of yours to accompany it.

Viva La Revolution.

bertiebowl

Actually the road is only expected to reduce traffic on the Stillorgan Dual Carriagway by about 20%.

The above quotes come from Victor.

Well Victor tell me this. The M50 currently ends in Ballinteer. Thus all traffic that has to travel to Bray/Stepaside, Shankill, Killiney, Dalkey, Wicklow town , Co. Wicklow, Co. Wexford, etc. etc takes the motorway as far as Ballinteer and is then discorged onto suburban streets.

Victor I personally challenge you to go to Ballinteer/Sandyford area to knock on doors and ask the residents about the 16 hour a day gridlock in the area.

I will give you points for bravery if then further insult the intelligence of the residents by telling them that completing the motorway that will divert traffic away from the area will .......... wait for it.......actually not reduce the traffic!!!!!!!

But get this Victor - the contract for road is an all or nothing job apparently. So you can't just open sections as far as Brewery Road - nope you gotta do the whole thing or nada.....

Victor

Originally posted by bertiebowl
Well Victor tell me this. The M50 currently ends in Ballinteer. Thus all traffic that has to travel to Bray/Stepaside, Shankill, Killiney, Dalkey, Wicklow town , Co. Wicklow, Co. Wexford, etc. etc takes the motorway as far as Ballinteer and is then discorged onto suburban streets.

This sounds about right. What do you want me to tell you?

Originally posted by bertiebowl
Victor I personally challenge you to go to Ballinteer/Sandyford area to knock on doors and ask the residents about the 16 hour a day gridlock in the area. I will give you points for bravery if then further insult the intelligence of the residents by telling them that completing the motorway that will divert traffic away from the area will .......... wait for it.......actually not reduce the traffic!!!!!!!

What would this achieve? My point is that the traffic could have been sent to Sandyford Industrial Estate instead of Dundrum / Ballinteer. By constructing the M50 to Stillorgan (in yellow), instead of the Brehon Field Road and Dundrum / Wyckham Bypasses (in purple), none (or at least much less) of this traffic would be going through Dundrum. See attached map.

Originally posted by bertiebowl
But get this Victor - the contract for road is an all or nothing job apparently. So you can't just open sections as far as Brewery Road - nope you gotta do the whole thing or nada.....

Which was the wrong decision. The contract done by South Dublin Co.Co. (the section to Ballinteer that is open) should have included up to Stillorgan.

Typedef

Originally posted by bertiebowl

Victor I personally challenge you to go to Ballinteer/Sandyford area to knock on doors and ask the residents about the 16 hour a day gridlock in the area.

Hmm. I used to live in Sandyford, it's a left turn off the main road as you go towards Wicklow and I have to say, it was rarely girdlocked.

In any case there is already an N(somenumber) motorway that services traffic that wants to go to Wicklow, Bray and so on and it is not simply a case that if you want to get to these places you have to cram through suburban areas to do so. So, for the sake of preserving national heritage, I think that the current transport infrastructure could be utilised until the M50 was 'totally' diverted from a site of archelogical significance.

Yes, as a taxpayer, I'm prepaired to foot the bill for that, and yes as a person who has lived in Sandyford in the recent past, I would be prepaired to rough any ancillary traffic that ends up coming off the M50 and traveling down past Ballinteer into the Sandyford area on the way into Wicklow.

Traffic is a fact of life no matter how many roads you build or how many places of national heritage you bulldoze to make way for more roads, invariably people buy cars, because "it's fast to take the M50 to work". Fast alright, until the M50 gets clogged with cars. Motorways are not a solution to congestion and expediant transport problems, fast, affordable, accessable public transport, with financial incentives to utilise the same is.

Victor

Originally posted by Typedef
Yes, as a taxpayer, I'm prepaired to foot the bill for that, and yes as a person who has lived in Sandyford in the recent past, I would be prepaired to rough any ancillary traffic that ends up coming off the M50 and traveling down past Ballinteer into the Sandyford area on the way into Wicklow.

But is doesn't have to - they are 2 completely separate issues.

bertiebowl

Yes, as a taxpayer, I'm prepaired to foot the bill for that, and yes as a person who has lived in Sandyford in the recent past, I would be prepaired to rough any ancillary traffic that ends up coming off the M50 and traveling down past Ballinteer into the Sandyford area on the way into Wicklow.

How nice of you Typedef to volunteer other people to suffer traffic congestion for an area you admit you "used to" live in.

Perhaps I could volunteer the area you live in for a nuclear reactor or something similar - as a tax payer I might be prepared to foot that bill

Anyway Typedef before telling us how you "used" to live in an area perhaps you should pay a visit to the vicinity and witness the current 14 hours a day gridlock........

bertiebowl

In any case there is already an N(somenumber) motorway that services traffic that wants to go to Wicklow, Bray and so on and it is not simply a case that if you want to get to these places you have to cram through suburban areas to do so. So, for the sake of preserving national heritage

Yes typedef there is a road called the N11 (not a motorway) and guess what if your coming from North or West Dublin (with their populations of approx 650,000) and you want to avoid the citicentre congestion on your way to Bray/Wicklow you take the M50 until you reach Dundrum/Sandyford.

But surely you knew this as you "used" to live in the area? When did you leave???

Victor

Originally posted by bertiebowl
How nice of you Typedef to volunteer other people to suffer traffic congestion for an area you admit you "used to" live in.........

Is this you avoiding my points?

bertiebowl

What would this achieve? My point is that the traffic could have been sent to Sandyford Industrial Estate instead of Dundrum / Ballinteer. By constructing the M50 to Stillorgan (in yellow), instead of the Brehon Field Road and Dundrum / Wyckham Bypasses (in purple), none (or at least much less) of this traffic would be going through Dundrum. See attached map.

Congratulations Victor. Run for County Councillor - you'd get my vote. But you've missed my point. The contract for the road is all or nothing - the contractor has informed the NRA / Council that the limited section of the road will not be opened to Sandyford.

So lets run with the current road alignment.

It is a reasonable compromise that saves a lot of the "castle" (what I call stones as the wall is pretty small) and allows traffic congestion relief for Southern Dublin

Typedef

How nice of you Typedef to volunteer other people to suffer traffic congestion for an area you admit you "used to" live in.

Perhaps I could volunteer the area you live in for a nuclear reactor or something similar - as a tax payer I might be prepared to foot that bill

Anyway Typedef before telling us how you "used" to live in an area perhaps you should pay a visit to the vicinity and witness the current 14 hours a day gridlock........

Similary bertiebowl, one might thank you for your volunteering the abrogation of Irish cultural heritage to make way for a motorway, that will become congested in years to come and simply need replacing with a bigger one (as is the paradigm with road building).

So, I would actually like to see some evidence of this fourteen hours a day of gridlock you claim necessitates the 'entire' nation has some of it's archelogical heritage taken away, in order to assuage the claimed fourteen hours of gridlock in the vicinity of Carrick mines.

It is after all, a green fields site, in a green fields area, so, on many different levels I fail to see the justification as to why the road cannot simply be diverted.

The Archeologists certainly seem to think the site is important and since the Archeologists are in fact 'the experts' in the field, I will take their judgement at face value, I'm sure to them it is quite important and I fail to see how a motorway which will become redundant due to congestion inside of thirty years, takes precedence over a site of Archeological significance.

bertiebowl

So, I would actually like to see some evidence of this fourteen hours a day of gridlock you claim necessitates the 'entire' nation has some of it's archelogical heritage taken away, in order to assuage the claimed fourteen hours of gridlock in the vicinity of Carrick mines.

Sure Tyepdef come on out for yourself to the Sandyford Dundrum area Monday - Friday 7 am - 8.30 pm. Saturday about 10 am to 6.30 pm Sunday 12 pm to 6 pm......witness the ambulances, police, fire engines etc. desperately trying to push their way through the bumper to bumper traffic - hope your not in that one!!!

Anyway the archelogical heritage is not been "taken away", its merely proposed that it be moved about 10 or 15 feet. SFW??

bertiebowl

It is after all, a green fields site, in a green fields area, so, on many different levels I fail to see the justification as to why the road cannot simply be diverted.

So the house where you live was once a green field, the office where you work was once a green field.

Come on Tyepdef. Surely even you recognise that progress involves a little sacrifice. Or are you suggesting your own house should be demolished and returned to mother nature???

Typedef

Sure Tyepdef come on out for yourself to the Sandyford Dundrum area Monday - Friday 7 am - 8.30 pm.

I moved into the Sanyford area March of last year and left in September, in my experience 7am to 8:30pm is an exageration.

Some objective proof for your allegation wouldn't go astray.

bertiebowl

Some objective proof for your allegation wouldn't go astray.

Listen to AA roadwatch.

And did you move away from Sandyford due to the heavy traffic? What part of Sandyford did you live in?? You were there during the summer holidays when the traffic is a little lighter

Victor

Bertie, I think you are either trolling or completely mislead. Any potential delay at Carrickmines does not affect traffic in Dundrum. They are miles and three motorway junctions apart.

bertiebowl

Any potential delay at Carrickmines does not affect traffic in Dundrum. They are miles and three motorway junctions apart.

Victor, a delay at Carrickmines does affect traffic in Dundrum if the Dundrum section will not be opened until the Carrickmines section is completed.

This was indicated as being the case by a spokesperson quoted in the Irish Times. Sadly I cannot post a link as I don't subscribe.

Victor

I saw this just now. Just one point, the South Eastern Motorway (at Carrickmines) is effectively part of the M11, not the M50 and doesn't act as a ring road.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0403/carrickmines.html

EU delegation visiting Carrickmines site
April 3, 2003 (09:09)

A delegation from the European Parliament's Petitions Committee is due to visit the medieval Carrickmines Castle site in south Dublin today.

The site is at the centre of a row over its conservation and has led to a delay in the completion of the M50 motorway.

Labour MEP for Dublin, Proinsias De Rossa, and the Friends of the Irish Environment group are alleging that €75 million of EU road-building funds are being inappropriately spent because of an inadequate Environmental Impact Statement for the M50.

Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Council vigorously disputes this, saying it has always abided by the law and has made every effort to accommodate concerns while achieving the long-awaited goal of finishing Dublin's ring-road.

The committee will visit the ruins of the Carrickmines Castle at 4pm today and raise any concerns with the Minister for Transport, Séamus Brennan tomorrow.

The delegation, led by Mr De Rossa, will include Felipe Camison, MEP Christan Democrats, Spain; Margot Kessler, MEP Socialist Party, Germany; and David Lowe, Official from the European Parliament Petitions Committee.

They will be joined by medieval historians Dr Seán Duffy, Trinity College and Kenneth Nichols of University College Cork. Both want to keep the entire site intact.

The issue is currently before the High Court.

Taking a map from http://www.dto.ie/strategy.htm (my colours), the assertion that the motorway at Carrickmines is part of the ringroad is patently false.

Jak

It is not that significant a site from the reports I read .. this topic came up here a while back, it was all discussed there.

Also the site is not being destroyed, in fact only a small portion is set aside to allow the development. These delays are costing a lot of money, and I would like to know what real tangible benefits are likely to be drawn from losing a portion of the site to road development?

Not everything old is inherently valuable, and from research i have looked at on valuation and 'willingness to pay' most people care only about major historical sites and finds in this regard. A few finds here may make a tv documentary at best or end up in a museum which receive very few visits anyhows these days. Is it worth it?

Vocal minorities ... bah.

JAK.

PH01

The people of Dundrum, Ballinteer, Sandyford, Leopardstown and other areas in South Dublin want the M50 completed and they want it done as per schedule. They're willing to wait, but only for so long. Anything that stops the completion of the M50 and it's support roads puts the whole population on edge, and delays now are unacceptable.
This is a fact.
I don't think the people of the area give two-hoots about Carrickmines Castle now. They're not going to listen to anyone who tells them how great it is - they don't really care.
And I for one can't blame them. I live in Ballinteer and I'm lucky now that I can go to work via the M50 and I don't have to go through Dundrum any more. But I know people who live in Ballinteer and work in Sanyford, and it take them an hour more or less to get to work - it should only take them ten minutes. Try telling them that they must save Carrickmines Castle at all costs and you'll be lucky to get away with your life.

Victor

Originally posted by PH01
The people of Dundrum, Ballinteer, Sandyford, Leopardstown and other areas in South Dublin want the M50 completed and they want it done as per schedule. They're willing to wait, but only for so long. Anything that stops the completion of the M50 and it's support roads puts the whole population on edge, and delays now are unacceptable.

How does it put the "whole population on edge"? Will they have to start taking sick leave, be referred to councellors and contemplate suicide?

Working the motorway around the castle does not affect anything between Ballinteer to Sandyford & Cherrywood to Shankill sections and should not affect the Sandyford to Cherrywood section.

Originally posted by PH01
But I know people who live in Ballinteer and work in Sanyford, and it take them an hour more or less to get to work - it should only take them ten minutes. Try telling them that they must save Carrickmines Castle at all costs and you'll be lucky to get away with your life.

Tell me where they pass Carrickmines on their way from Ballinteer to Sandyford?

PH01

Originally posted by Victor
How does it put the "whole population on edge"? Will they have to start taking sick leave, be referred to councellors and contemplate suicide?

Working the motorway around the castle does not affect anything between Ballinteer to Sandyford & Cherrywood to Shankill sections and should not affect the Sandyford to Cherrywood section.

Tell me where they pass Carrickmines on their way from Ballinteer to Sandyford?

How does Carrickmines effect traffic in Dundrum/Ballinteer? Simply, all traffic going from west Dublin to south Dublin goes through Ballinteer or Dundrum. The M50 will take most of this traffic away. This is what the people of Dundrum/Ballinteer are looking forward to.
I hope this answers your question?

Victor

Originally posted by PH01
How does Carrickmines effect traffic in Dundrum/Ballinteer? Simply, all traffic going from west Dublin to south Dublin goes through Ballinteer or Dundrum. The M50 will take most of this traffic away. This is what the people of Dundrum/Ballinteer are looking forward to. I hope this answers your question?

No it doesn't, because the M50 stops at Sandyford, the M11 will be going through Carrickmines. Completing the M50 to Sandyford will take all the excess M50 traffic out of Dundrum/Ballinteer.

PH01 <

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PH01

Originally posted by Victor
No it doesn't, because the M50 stops at Sandyford, the M11 will be going through Carrickmines. Completing the M50 to Sandyford will take all the excess M50 traffic out of Dundrum/Ballinteer.

PH01 <

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You . . . . The point

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Where it starts or stops doesn't matter. The point is the connection of these two roads and the contract.
The contract is to build complete the M50 with the connection to the M/n11. The contract is not for each section to be delivered in stages, like to Sandyford or to a wall in Carrickmines.

Victor

Originally posted by PH01
Where it starts or stops doesn't matter. The point is the connection of these two roads and the contract.
The contract is to build complete the M50 with the connection to the M/n11. The contract is not for each section to be delivered in stages, like to Sandyford or to a wall in Carrickmines.

Indeed, but there is nothing in the contract to prevent partial handover, indeed such forms of contract specifically foresee the possibility.

PH01

Indeed, but there is nothing in the contract to prevent partial handover, indeed such forms of contract specifically foresee the possibility.

A partial handover would indeed solve a lot of problems, but I believe isn't not possible in this case.
That is not to say that the council and elected pols haven't requested this with the construction firm, like finishing the road to Sandyford first.
I believe that there was no firm willing to take on the project where there was the partial delivery of the roads. This would prove too expensive for them

Victor

I wonder what caused the change of mind since last week (putting the junction on hold while completing everything else). http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101455&highlight=motorway

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/966738?view=Eircomnet

Cullen gives go-ahead for completion of M50
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 3rd July, 2003

The Minister for the Environment, Mr Martin Cullen, today gave the go-ahead for work to resume on the M50 motorway in south Dublin.

Work on the project had been halted following protest by campaigners seeking to preserve the medieval Carrickmines Castle site.

Announcing his decision, Minister Cullen said: "This decision is based on my overall assessment that the public interest in allowing construction of the South Eastern Motorway along its approved route justifies consenting to/approving of the works impacting on archaeology at the site."

He said: "It has been satisfactorily demonstrated that a systematic approach has been adopted by the Council to the archaeological resolution of the Carrickmines sites."

The Council's compromise plan will preserve parts of the site but others will be removed.

Campaigners claim this is not enough and that the whole site could be preserved if the road was slightly redirected.

Mr Cullen said as many as 130 archaeologists have been employed on the Carrickmines site and the archaeological mitigation to date is estimated to have cost €6 million.

The Minister said he considered 23 submissions relating to the case, 17 supporting early completion, with six objecting.