Desexualisation In Ireland in 2003?.....alive and well.

Falkorre

Just thought Id get some input on some stuff thats been going round in my head for ages now,.....

I am a 25 year old gay male living here in ROI, I met my partner online four years ago, he was living in the USA, and we now live together as a couple here in Dublin, (I am a native dubliner), I also happen to be a wheelchair user (no, my partner is not) and have many other disabilities such as epilepsy.

All my life, I have never been "in the closet", I was never ashamed of who i was and yeah often was scared to admit it, but thought "fu*k it, im allready different"...... so I never did the whole coming out thing except with individuals who I had recently met.

One of the main things I would like to hear other opinions on is what I see as the GLB communities lack of accecptance of people with disabilities within these communities.

Its not always an overt "your not wanted" lack of accecptance, indeed most people individually will say I am sure, "the gay community as a whole discriminates less than most other minorities" and they may be right, but in my experience the discrimination is a lot more to do with a overt lack of a consideration.

I think as somone who is both disabled and gay, i may have in my youth, assumed that the gay community as a community who has fought for equality and to be accecpted, would be open to accecpting that another minority group (in my case the disabled), may also have marginalised gay people.

I saw many ad-type things like "do you have a gay friend, no?...how do you know?" where the visual implication would be a friend discovering another friend was in fact gay, or a policeman, or a doctor, or a fireman, or a *insert profession here*..... not once did i ever see a person with a disability with the "?" over their head.

Im not saying the gay community are any better or worse than the hetro community for their desexualization of people with disabilities, but I do see the gay community as a whole as a community who should be a lot more knowledgable about the potential effects of desexualization of any individual or group.

There are support groups for gay doctors, gay sports men and women, gay sex workers, gay drug users, gay tv/ts's, gay alchoholics, gay *insert whatever here*..... hell, the next thing i expect to see is a meeting aimed at gay penguins, and the fact that all these are covered is a wonderfull thing and more power to those who started these groups. But I cant help wondering why it is that the one group (that i ever accidently heard of) set up for gay people with disabilities has dissapered into relative invisability. (apparently it was (is?) called "delicious" and a meeting was held in the city center somwhere, (I cant help wondering how the organisers thought wheelchair users would actually *get* to the (AFAIK, unadvertised) meeting given most are living in the suburbs and there is virtually *no* transport designed to accomodate people with disabilities in this country).

How many gay clubs have you been to that would be (Properly) accessable to a wheelchair user?

How many awareness / help groups hold their meetings in venues that are accessible?

Where is the representation of the Disabled & Gay communities in this country?

When you see a man / woman in the street, and you briefly wonder (as we all do) "hmmmm,... is he/she" ..... would this happen if the person was a wheelchair user?

I am a gay, 25 year old, attached male wheelchair user living in dublin, that next guy you see in a wheelchair when you are shopping, drinking, walking your dog, may just be me, would you have known? would you have cared? probably not, why? because Im in a wheelchair, and therefore sex is somthing I must know nothing about right?....... if you knew how much that makes me laugh it might surprise you.

there are many more points on this issue id love to raise, and i hope i might here at least, but i just cant help wondering, why are the disabled gay people of ireland, still, in 2003, a hidden, desexualized group of individuals being coldly ignored by their peers?


DawnTreader.

BuffyBot

I think it's a shame people think like this. And they do, and I'll admit I have done so in the past, though my mind is a bit more open nowadays.

I'm not sure what the reason it behind it, but I think that some sections of the GLB community actually do discriminate against people who are different (not just physically disabled - different is the only word I could think of to cover a multitude of sins so to speak).

The wider community has only begun (I think) to realise that people with disabilities have the same feelings, capabilities and needs as the able bodied. I hope this will begin to filter down into the GLB community at some stage too.

De Rebel

A large part of the gay community is very discriminatory. People are marginalised/desexualised/whatever you want to call it for all sorts of reasons. Old, fat, "ugly", black, learning disabilities, even simple things like being unfashionable etc etc etc. are all reasons to push people aside.

For a community that goes on and on about its rights and equality it can often be worse in its treatment of its own members than the "hetro community" could ever be.

And the scene is often the worst manifestation of that segregation between the "beautiful young things" and the rest.

It seems to me that much of this is caused by the newness of the gay community in this country. Its only 10 years since homosexual activity was decriminalised. The whole acceptance of gays as an integral part of the community is still at an early stage, and so there is still a certain ghetto mentality. As acceptance of "out" gays in the community, workplace, social scene increases, so to will the opportunities for gays to integrate normally in the community and derive fulfillment in "normal" ways.

Don't get me wrong, the scene has its advantages. But don't rely on it for fulfillment of your social or other personal needs. (Apart from the obvious )

Certainly I try to have a balanced social life - and I am as at home in a str8 pub as a gay one. And I use the scene as an occasional distraction rather than relying on it or being intimidate by it.

There are a lot of very very genuine gay people out there who are only too willing to form genuine friendships and value people for what they are instead of judging them by their suitability as models for Attitude magazine.

Take the initiative, you and your partner set out to make some real friendships, and use your insight to reach out to others who may be feeling marginalised.

Hope some of this makes sense.

Talliesin

In my student days I did a bit (admittedly a little bit) of research and activism around issues of sexuality and people with disabilities.

I was inspired in this by seeing some of the work of the disabled actor and activist Nabil Shaban, and also because fighting for the rights of the people with disabilities and for resources for children with disabilities was something I'd just grown-up doing (my sister is both mentally and physically disabled) so when I got involved with activism around sexual issues it was just an obvious issue to work with.

In researching a USI motion I came across an aspect of the desexualisation of disabled people that I hadn't considered before:
When disabled people are sexually abused or raped the image of them as desexualised leads to difficulty in reporting, being believed, and obtaining counselling (as of course does the difficulty that disabled people have in obtaining just about any help on any issue). They are also deliberately targetted by some perpretrators, partly because they know that the victim will have those difficulties in reporting, partly because they are easier to overcome physically, partly because some mental handicaps cause behaviour conducive to such abuse (e.g. Down's people are generally very trusting), and partly because they may have authority over the victim (i.e. when the perpretrator is a carer).

Anyway, that's an issue within this issue, the Seattle Rape Crisis Centre has done plenty of research into it if anyone wants to investigate further.

As far as the desexualisation affects people's ability for sexual expression goes I had an interesting (and disappointing) experience when I organised a workshop on the issue as a collaboration between in college's LGB society and Access society.

The first experience of this is that while I had been involved in LGB stuff for a while, and a few more controversial issues, this was the first time that I'd ever had someone tell me I was "sick"!

The second was that of the LGB society I was the only member that bothered to turn up.

The workshop itself was very good, and extremely interesting. One thing I thought was fascinating is that there are (due to a history of segregated education) a male and female dialect of ISL. Interestingly deliberate borrowings from the female dialect is a common form of campness amongst Irish deaf gay men.

As for the media, one would think that Nabil Shaban is the only disabled person in the world who ever had a sexual or romantic thought in his head (on Channel 4 outside of peaktime viewing).

The brilliant Skallagrigg did have a great one-liner were the main character's father is talking to a young man he thinks has romantic feelings towards her, "Nah, I'm gay. I think it's the trousers." And as with much of that film it manages in a brief exchange of dialog to bring possibilities into the viewer's thoughts, even if it doesn't explore them.

BTW. AFAIK Delicious is still going, contact:
c/o Forum of People with Disabilities,
21 Hill St.
Tel: 878 6077

Falkorre

"Take the initiative, you and your partner set out to make some real friendships, and use your insight to reach out to others who may be feeling marginalised. - De Rebel "

---

Okay,
I think its time I was even more honest here.
First, I wanna say thanks to all who gave input to this thread, to me it has made a big impact on my thoughts on the subject and confirmed some of my beliefs.

The reason I quoted De Rebel, above, was to highlight another point, yet a related point to me.

Since the age of 13 (yes, 13!), I have been involved in speaking to others publically about ALL aspects of being a Person With a Disability (P.W.D. for convienience). And I always made no bones about my sexuality.

I did my first "lecture" at age 13 to 300 healthcare and service provider professionals in a large Dublin hotel.

I then went on to do many many more, I traveled speaking to schoolkids all over Ireland, the UK, and France when I was 15+, I also worked in the arts sector, both mainstream and disability related, I am a trained actor, I am a trained psychologist and behavioural scientist to BSc. degree level. I have worked in the corporate sector, in administration, financial services and communication and I.T, and freelance in many other areas, and guess what age I am? I am 25 years old.

Somone above, mentioned Nabil, I have met this man many times and if the subject of disability does interest anyone, he is the person to talk to.

my point?
My point is, I am 25 now, and I have done all the "making some real friendships, and using my insights to reach out to others who may be feeling marginalised" that I feel *capable* of doing.

This year I was diagnosed with M.S. on top of the spina-bifida, epilepsy etc I already deal with on a daily basis.

But, I am nothing special, plenty more people have a lot more problems, my last bf was HIV+ and I was with him until he died in his 20's. I *know* my problems are minor in the grand scheme of things.

But I myself have no more time to educate others about the things they should be learning elsewhere. I lose my current job on the 11th of next month, this leaves me supporting myself AND my boyfriend (who cannot work as he is not Irish and cannot get work visa or residency for another 2 years when he can "apply" for naturalisation),... on a disability allowance of €130pw.

Why cant i get another job you ask? Mainly because the majority of buisnesses in this country havent yet embraced the benefits of allowing somone who is both highly qualified and highly capable, but whos disability prevents them from travelling 10 miles or more into a city center office 7 days a week with our current disabled transport system in this country, to work from home even partially.

The responsibility for educating the masses, whether it be about disability, homosexuality or anything else, needs to be put on the government and into the legislature, it is *not* up to the individual to change the system, it can only happen when organised groups prioritise their issues and the issues of those they claim to represent and campaign until they are heard.

DawnTreader
(AKA: B.)

mechanima

***
The responsibility for educating the masses, whether it be about disability, homosexuality or anything else, needs to be put on the government and into the legislature, it is *not* up to the individual to change the system, it can only happen when organised groups prioritise their issues and the issues of those they claim to represent and campaign until they are heard.
***

On the alternative paradigm, a few thoughts occur:

Parents coo over their totally adoreable, beloved and content alternatively abled baby. Father hugs Mother and sighs:

"Aren't we lucky, we will never have to worry about HIS future, because he will be spending all of it campaigning for understanding and acceptance"

Or Maybe

Questions from the floor for the Dawntreader:

"Are you personally sexually active?"

"Well I was until I started campaigning to be accepted as a sexual person. Since when I can't seem to find the time or the energy anymore"

Disabled people need LIVES not crusades, and the abysmal state of available State Funded resources and services would provide material for a reprise of Monty Python's Flying Circus!

G

smiles

Originally posted by mechanima
it is *not* up to the individual to change the system,

Thats absolute crap.

If someone doesnt like someone it is up to them to work for it to be changed.

<< Fio >>

mechanima

***If someone doesnt like someone it is up to them to work for it to be changed. ***

Not for the rest of their lives, it isn't.

Believe me, the Dawntreader (who's words you were quoting, not mine) has "served his time" and more on that score.

G

Falkorre

Thnx Mech

Thats exactly my point, *of course* an individual has the *right* to work to make change, gods know I did,

What I and what I think Mech were trying to say is that it should not be *expected* that just *because* somone is in a minority that they should automatically spend the best years of their lives fighting for change.

And anyone who thinks that viewpoint isn't extremely common, where u are expected to be some kinda super-campaigner, come speak to me and I will tell you how common it truly is.

Dawntreader

Victor

I think part of the problem is we as a society, a nation, a species, try to define people primarily their lowest common denomintor (?) "the tall man", "the fat, black woman" or "the couple at table 6". You more often hear "John is a diabetic", rather than "John has diabetes". We need to move from a position of defining people by two or three adjectives and recognise people as people.

Originally posted by smiles
Thats absolute crap. If someone doesnt like someone it is up to them to work for it to be changed.

People, there is a difference between someone not helping themselves be helped and society not helping those in need. Everyone who is discriminated against is entitled to assitance in vindicating themselves, but the only true vindication can come from themselves.

smiles

Originally posted by mechanima
***If someone doesnt like someone it is up to them to work for it to be changed. ***

Not for the rest of their lives, it isn't.

Believe me, the Dawntreader (who's words you were quoting, not mine) has "served his time" and more on that score.

G

My point is that you have to work towards getting something better - not necessarily for the rest of your life - but to make the effort in the first place.

<< Fio >>

Kell

As a straight person I only chance in and out of here every so often to keep myself up to date with GLB opinions, issues etc. One thing that has stuck out a bit for me, unless I am reading the original and subsequent posts incorrectly (please let me know if I am) , is that the core issue of marginalisation seems more based on the disability issue rather than the sexuality issue. Dawntreader asked how many gay clubs have disabled facilities? I ask then how many straight ones have disabled facilities?

Dawntreader then says that there seems a large issue with gaining recognition in the gay community, which by it's nature should be open to new ideas and accept more readily. But doesnt society in general, gay or straight, marginalise disabled people? TBH, I find the gay people that I have come into contact with in the past are the pickiest individuals I have ever come across and they also have a tendency to look down noses at you-end rant.

Anyway, what I am trying to find out is whether or not this is indeed a thread based on inequality and marginalisation suffered by disabled people, gay or straight, and also why it isnt in humanities, as it's scope seems to be well outside a purely GLB issue?

mechanima

Kell, why is sexual recognition for a Gay Disabled person NOT a "Gay Issue" AS WELL as a "Humanities Issue"?

While it would make a nice gesture, there is not a lot of practical benefit in the sexuality of a Gay Disabled person only being recognised in the straight community.



G
(str8 last time I checked, but trust me, that was YEARS ago..)

Victor

Originally posted by Kell
Anyway, what I am trying to find out is whether or not this is indeed a thread based on inequality and marginalisation suffered by disabled people, gay or straight, and also why it isnt in humanities, as it's scope seems to be well outside a purely GLB issue?

I think that this could easily be in Humanities, but was in fact posted here, indeed much of the reason it was posted here is as Dawntreader said "One of the main things I would like to hear other opinions on is what I see as the GLB communities lack of accecptance of people with disabilities within these communities." Unfortunately, and damn me if I am wrong, parts of the gay community only want the (cue accent from "Sex and the City") "fabulous" gay people and just like the typical "jock" / "society girl" is slow to accept that people come in al shapes and sizes.

Life stacks enough odds against us without someone being marginalised because of sexuality / M.S. / spina-bifida / epilepsy or whatever. Dawntreader has to deal with all of them. Oh help, that sounds so patronising.

I know a kid with spina-bifida. A friend died from epilepsy age 26. My niece has diabetes. Another niece died from SIDS. 3 of my family have varying disabilities from severe learning difficulties, to my brother not being able to walk until age 4 to my sister not being able to speak.

I was a sensative kid, my most serious difficulties were shyness, short-sightedness, overly-acute hearing and concentration / discipline difficulties (but then most kids will have some issues). These effected my life into adulthood (even with IQ 149), but more than that, my siblings difficulties directly (self doubt / inabilty to deal with disabilty of siblings) and indirectly (lack of attention / caring) effected me.

yellum

This is dawntreaders thread but if another copy is asked for I can stick it in Humanities and leave a copy here too or just move the whole thing. Its up to Dawntreader

yellum

Originally posted by Kell
TBH, I find the gay people that I have come into contact with in the past are the pickiest individuals I have ever come across and they also have a tendency to look down noses at you-end rant.

I'd find better gay people then ! Theres way more genuine, kind, caring, gay people out there than that you lot you mentioned. It proves really that even when they get into a community that accepts then they're still feeling really insecure, thus the looking down noses and bitchiness. Pretty sad I think. Might show how much an effect their fear of their sexuality is.

Falkorre

...um....wow

I gotta say, I am learning a lot here. (In a good way )

Firstly, to get it out of the way, Kell, ....
No offence meant dahling but you said,

"the core issue of marginalisation seems more based on the disability issue rather than the sexuality issue. Dawntreader asked how many gay clubs have disabled facilities? I ask then how many straight ones have disabled facilities? "

The disability issue in this thread IMHO is *entirely* integral to the sexuality issue, thats what I started the whole thread about in the first place.

Yes I also ask how many str8 clubs have access *but* that has *nothing* to do with my question of why gay ones dont. for instance, compare how many of one there is to the other, Do u see how pointless it becomes in this particular thread?

The second thing, You asked why it is not in humanities?

Simple, as a gay man, I chose to discuss an issue that effects me in the relevant forum, it might just as easilly be discussed in humanities, but I chose to discuss it where I felt most comfortable and due to the fact that my entire point *is* that disability is **as much** a gay issue as a str8 issue.

Basically, victor said the main point tho' (cept *I* woulda used a Patsy accent meself ).....

Quote Victor : ~I think that this could easily be in Humanities, but was in fact posted here, indeed much of the reason it was posted here is as Dawntreader said "One of the main things I would like to hear other opinions on is what I see as the GLB communities lack of accecptance of people with disabilities within these communities." Unfortunately, and damn me if I am wrong, parts of the gay community only want the (cue accent from "Sex and the City") "fabulous" gay people and just like the typical "jock" / "society girl" is slow to accept that people come in al shapes and sizes.~~

---

And yellum is right, there *are* many many great gay people out there, both on and off the scene, and for those who *are* bitchy arrogant queens yes maybe there are valid reasons that must be considered before sweeping statments are made.

look, the way it is is that I am a young(ish) gay man, in a long term relationship, and I have found throughout my life that a large proportion of the community I thought would understand more what its like to be descriminated against, felt it was accecptable to descriminate against me. That was my personal experience, and I am sure others have other experiences, I can and will only speak of mine.
But that is no big surprise, coz i didnt exactly "fit" in the "Disabled community" either, I mean, if u wanna go by looks alone, how many weight-lifting-openly-Gay-Goth-wheelchair users have *you* ever seen? lol

*shrug*
I am i gotta say, thouroughly enjoying this thread, and u have no idea what it is like to finally get the oppertunity to actually discuss this and other topics with people who seem interested.



B
AKA: DawnTreader

Kell

Originally posted by Dawntreader


The disability issue in this thread IMHO is *entirely* integral to the sexuality issue, thats what I started the whole thread about in the first place.

due to the fact that my entire point *is* that disability is **as much** a gay issue as a str8 issue.

And yellum is right, there *are* many many great gay people out there, both on and off the scene, and for those who *are* bitchy arrogant queens yes maybe there are valid reasons that must be considered before sweeping statments are made.

My original post was to determine what the main jist of your thread was Dawntreader i.e. marginalised through sexuality or disability, and your second highlighted quote seems to have answered that quite nicely for me, therefore I cant see why your post is limited to GLB forum.

As for sweeping generalisations, I referred specifically to people I know, not the general. Considering the fact that I was raped by a gay man, it seems pretty broad minded and non general of me to be engaged in a discussion involving gay issues wouldent you think?

yossarin

Bid to break taboo of disabled sexuality

Last updated: 26-02-03, 14:42

Health professionals were today accused of ignoring the sexual needs of disabled people in Northern Ireland.
As the University of Ulster launched a new course aimed at bringing the issue into the open, lecturers claimed it was time to break the taboo.
Dr Mary Jenkins said: "This is a subject which people don't like to talk about. There is a strong tendency, even among medical professionals, to regard people with disabilities as asexual - without sex.
"We, as a society, do not expect them to have sexual needs. People with disabilities do not speak of their sexual needs either. It is an issue which does not have a voice."
The new university module, Sexual Relations and Persons with Disability, has been set up to end the silence and help health care workers discuss the issue with clients.
It can be taken as part of a post-graduate diploma in Guidance and Counselling or as a stand alone module.
Dr Jenkins, a lecturer at the School of Psychology in Magee, insisted the course was not aimed at turning the students into counsellors.
Health boards and trusts had given a cool response to the initiative, she added.
But the Northern Ireland Psychosexual Therapy Consultancy has been involved in efforts to promote more frank discussions.
"This module is a valuable assistance to healthcare professionals and disabled people, especially since this is European Year of the Disabled," Dr Jenkins said.
"It is finally breaking the silence on what has been a taboo subject for too long.
"We don't pretend to have all the answers, but unless we talk about the subject openly it will remain a closed book."

not specifically gay-disabled related, but interesting

I didn't know that this was the European Year of the Disabled.

Falkorre

Kell,
I think u mis-understood me somwhere along the line.

Hon, I was *not* trying to get at you personally in any way shape or form.... you ask, "therefore I cant see why your post is limited to GLB forum." and I was trying to make the point that it is because I chose for it to be. its *that* simple.

As for your personal experience which you chose to mention, being raped, no-matter who by is indeed a terrible experience, I know that all to well myself. But I would feel remiss if I did not mention that I personally feel the fact that he was a gay man is IMHO maybe not necessarilly relevant, rape as I am sure you know usually has a lot more to do with violence and control than the actual sexual act itself.

As for how broad minded it is of you to be here, well I would be more inclined to see it as taking a step towards healing and realising that the fact he was a gay man was not instrumental in him being a rapist.

Yossarin, (love the name btw )
Yup, it is, what that exactly means im not yet sure

That article certainly is interesting, allthough having been involved in similiar initiatives in the past, I will be v interested to see if it still exists in 6 months time. I hope so, we shall see


B.

Dawntreader

Talliesin

Originally posted by Dawntreader
But I would feel remiss if I did not mention that I personally feel the fact that he was a gay man is IMHO maybe not necessarilly relevant, rape as I am sure you know usually has a lot more to do with violence and control than the actual sexual act itself.

Indeed it is certainly not unheard of for straight (or at least straight-identifying) men to rape men, including rape and sexual assault as a component of homophobic violence. The criteria by which a rapist decides to rape someone does not necessarily correspond with who they would seek consensual sex with (again that also relates to what I was saying about the effect that desexualisation of people with disabilities has on the risk of them being raped).

As for whether this should be discussed here or in Humanities; while it would certainly be on-topic in humanities (a link to here from there wouldn't be amiss I think, though most threads here would be on-topic on humanities as well as here) the issues of desexualisation of people with disabilities is compounded for gay men and lesbians because of the stigma attached to homosexuality and the stigma attached to disability are more than added together.

Then there is the fact that in many ways both the gay community and the disability community are small and can therefore tend towards being insular (no matter how cosmopolitan the former may like to consider itself). While a history of openness based on radicalism exists within both it can be hard being a minority within a minority.

In particular, the gay community has a strong component of "body fascism", and some of the support structures for the disabled community (especially in rural areas) are run by religious organisations with a so-called "moral ethos" that actively discriminates against homosexuality.

Falkorre

Talliesin,

You raise many good points, i am particularly impressed that you mentioned the whole religious orgs point as many many people in this country never even think of the fact that a huge majority of so-called "services" for people with disabilities were run by the clergy, John of Gods, Order of Malta, an many many many more.

Imagine being in a situation, where the place you have no choice but to live, is run by a group of people who see you as evil personified and in some cases try to make u believe your disabled *because* you are gay, yes that was not a rarity.

I know there were /are many people in a position where they cannot be who they truly are, but when you are physically disabled it *is* slightly different, you dont have, in some cases, any *hope* of ever being able to get away, you dont just rely on them for a roof over ur head, u rely on them (in some cases) to feed you by hand, to enable you to wash yourself, to enable you to use a toilet, to get you into bed at night, to, in some cases, talk and communicate. How can u live when the person you need to do all these things and more, thinks u are evil?

Anyway, I spose all of that is a bit off topic, but Yes Talliesin, it would be just as on topic in humanities as here, but as you rightly pointed out, most things here would.

B

(AKA Dawntreader)

Kell

Dawntreader- the rape was cited in a way to point out that while I might have good reason to take a dim view of homosexuality, I dont. It was in response to the point you made that I had taken a general stance on the gay populace through experience by brandishing all as snobbish in their approach to others. Twas all. (I tend to get really píssed if someone so much as suggests I might be narrow minded and come over all defensive)

I'll leave this thread alone, and while your point of view of "I chose it to go in the GLB section" is perfectly reasonable, I wonder why the mods have not moved it into another forum. I wonder this as we have all seen posts in other forums moved as they were not strictly limited to the section they were posted in.

Au revoir-

Kell aka M

yellum

I gave Dawntreader the option to have me move this thread to another Forum. Twas he started the debate on this so I felt the option was up to him. What I'll do is I'll copy this to Humanities too and leave it be debated there as well.

amp

Fine by me.