Irish WLANs win government funding

Xian

Internet trials get go-ahead
by Jamie Smyth, Irish Times January 27 2003

The Government will co-fund several trial projects to deliver high speed wireless internet services at universities, hotels and town centres across the Republic.

The trials will use wireless LAN technology, an innovative radio technology that can deliver short range connection to the internet at extremely high speeds. The Minister for Communications, Mr Ahern, said yesterday the Government had selected five firms to undertake the trials: O2, Esat BT, Rococo, Amocom and Digiweb.

It will provide grants worth €260,510 for the trial projects, which will take place in Dublin, Cork, Mayo, Sligo, Galway, Limerick and Louth. The projects will try to demonstrate the feasibility of wireless LAN broadband - already being widely used abroad to provide "broadband hotspots".

Also Irish WLANs win government funding(enn)

From 29 applicants the government chose to award funding to Rococo/Trinity College (€23,500); Amocom (€11,757); Digiweb (€66,446); O2 (€111,268) and Esat BT (€47,539), for a total of €260,510.

WLAN access is to be available in Dublin's Digital Hub; Trinity College Dublin; the Cork City and Mahon area; Dundalk, Drogheda and Ardee (including adjacent towns of Blackrock, Knockbridge, and Dunleer); Westport and Sligo; a conference and exhibition centre; a ferry terminal; and hotel hotspots in Dublin, Limerick and Galway.
...
"We have been looking at WLAN from a feasibility point of view for about 15 months, and we see this as a part of a suite of wireless data services, starting from GPRS through to 3G. It's an alternative access medium," [John Gunnigan, strategy and business development director for O2] said. "The Department wanted to investigate to what extent WLAN could be used as an alternative access medium and were willing to offer funding on that basis."

raindog

Hello everyone. I was told about this forum just this evening so this is my first post. It's great to see how busy it is and the strength of feeling on broadband issues out there, not that it is the least surprising.

On the issuing of grants for Wlan trials, I am just looking at the names mentioned. O2, Esat BT etc. Well come on, surely these companies have deep enough pockets not to go running for Gov funds. And surely the Gov has some better ways of promoting competition in the marketplace than giving funds to companies who are more or less monopolies and who if they were really serious about using this technology which has been in full use abroad for over three years, would have finalised and enabled Wlan here allready. Call me paranoid but in this country competition is defined by franchising and monopolisation and unfortunately as has been seen from the many tribunals, there are far too many politicians in bed with too many company directors for any level of transparency or honesty. Rant over!

Damian

Well said raindog, you took the words out of my mouth.

Just what, in the name of Jazus are the Gov doing giving money to cowboys like 02 and Esat ???

Still I suppose it's better than giving it to Eircom?

Krouc

Tey didnt give any to Eircom.

Glee

dahamsta

As a member of CorkWAN, I have to say that I was quite disappointed to see these grants being given to professional organisation like 02 and Esat BT, when not-for-profit community-based schemes like CorkWAN were crying out for the money. It doesn't matter now, we've gotten funding elsewhere, it just strikes me as an abuse of public trust.

The phrase "jobs for the boys" comes to mind.

adam

yellum

Holy Christ but thats a bloody Joke. O2 and Esat BT. You'd swear these boys were poor. For the ****ing love of god what is up with our government. O2 are already doing Wireless Hotspots anyway.

What a waste. For shame !

yellum

EsatBT already have licences for wireless broadband anyway and charge a fortune to use their service and they pretty much sit on it and do nothing. Why give them public money again after that whole fibre ring fiasco.

Grrrrrrr

dahamsta

Heh, we're not bitter in Cork.

adam

yankinlk

Did anyone from Corkwan apply for this money? I know I did.

(thank god they gave it to someone like esat who probably submitted an application 100xs better then the one i did. At least I tried, and Im sure not complaining about losing)

iwb

Is this the result of the request for proposals from last August?

dahamsta

CorkWAN submitted an application for WLAN funding, and were informed two months ago that our application had not been accepted. We have since received funding elsewhere.

The bitterness comment was sarcasm, hence the smiley. The previous comment was personal -- I genuinely believe that the WLAN funding should have been provided to not-for-profit community-based schemes, and not to professional operators with existing equipment, assets and access to cash. ANY non-for-profit, not just CorkWAN, I would have been perfectly happy to see it go to someone else if they had a better scheme, a better application. But operators backed by two of the biggest telecommunications companies in the world? Nah.

You could call it sour grapes if CorkWAN didn't get funding elsewhere. I call it common sense. The government sold the people out again for hard cash and a slap on the back from their buddies in big business. Big surprise. No change in operations so, the envelopes just changed colour.

adam

iwb

While I often think that the comments on this forum are unnecessarily negative towards "good" news, all nasty comments are completely applicable here.
I wholeheartedly agree with Adam. When will the Government learn how stupid it is to subsidise these huge companies. The only consolation here is that Eircom didn't get any of the money.
I am absolutely sure that the money they gave to the big guys won't change anything here in even a slightly positive way.
Will any of these guys offer cheaper access as a result? No.
Will this speed up the rollout of wireless access in any way? No.
Are these operators laughing uncontrollably all the way to the bank? Yup!
Does it demonstrate that the Irish Government doesn't learn from its mistakes? Absolutely.

How many millions has the Irish Government put into the operators since deregulation? Anyone know this? Well it has achieved absolutely nothing. The country is still a third world country with respect to broadband.

yankinlk

I totally disagree with you. As a person that lined up with the rest of the "chancers" and submitted an application for this money, I know how much work it took to make a legitamate try for this money. I also know that the list of people that applied was gone through with a fine tooth comb using "independent" experts. This is one case where you all are wrong - flat out.

iwb

Yes it is true that a government has to go through a public procurement process to allocate funds like this but there are weightings that can be used to make sure that they get the most bang for their buck. If these are decided upon beforehand and possibly published, the selection process is still fair.
One weighting factor really should be the future potential for broadband penetration based on the application. There are probably several others also.
The plain truth which you can disagree with all you like is that putting money into the existing operators has done very little to help the access situation in the country. Without an alternative, our duopoly will suppress the country in favour of profit forever more.

spongebob

Originally posted by yankinlk
I totally disagree with you. As a person that lined up with the rest of the "chancers" and submitted an application for this money, I know how much work it took to make a legitamate try for this money. I also know that the list of people that applied was gone through with a fine tooth comb using "independent" experts. This is one case where you all are wrong - flat out.

If you were trying a community based approach, rather than retrofitting 4 and 5 star hotels in the conference and events marketswith LANs (which is where ALL the money HAS gone BTW) then I would not consider you a chancer ......

Corkwan are long established by the standards of the technology involved. It is a disgrace that they got nothing.

The funding disbursement is a kick in the teeth for community self provisioning everywhere and appears to be a sop to the tourist industry who were too shortsighted to fit LANs or any pipe larger than 128k into their premises.

Yet the department of Communications bails them out.

I understand that the Radisson in Galway, built in 2000, is one of these retrofittings. Why these muppets wouldn't run some cat 5 and a cisco 16nn is beyond me :mad:

M

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Xian
Internet trials get go-ahead

The trials will use wireless LAN technology, an innovative radio technology that can deliver short range connection to the internet at extremely high speeds.

[...]

"The Department wanted to investigate to what extent WLAN could be used as an alternative access medium and were willing to offer funding on that basis."

It's a shame really that the Hotel based WLANS are really just that, wireless LANS. It is no different than what you might do at home once you already have a decent internet connection except in scale. It does not appear to solve any existing problem, and companies have been doing this sort of thing without public funding for some time now.

What are they hoping to find out from this trial?

I mean, aren't there loads of companies already in Dublin using wireless LANS many of which will have internet access?

Perhaps I have missed something that is not explained in the report.

Dustaz

Jesus, the saga continues

Wireless is the one hope for an open competitive envoiroment in broadband and the government are doing their best to create a similar situation to the one we have with fixed lines.

What really pisses me off about this is the amount of money they gave to 02. This company is developing this tech for themselves, for thier own profit. The government is basically giving a multinational company public funds to help develop a service that they are doing anyway instead of helping out people like CorkWan who could help a HUGE number of people that will not be getting broadband any other way in the near future.

Normally i might moan about the inference of political comments, but i feel they are totally justified in this case. This does read like the governent are doing thier level best to sell out the future once again.

d0gb0y

Giving O2 & east money just shows how dum are goverment are...next they will help fund tesco to buy superquinn & other irish stores

raindog

Yankinlk wrote: I totally disagree with you. As a person that lined up with the rest of the "chancers" and submitted an application for this money, I know how much work it took to make a legitamate try for this money. I also know that the list of people that applied was gone through with a fine tooth comb using "independent" experts. This is one case where you all are wrong - flat out.

Well I too went the grant route for funding and was told that as there was allready a Gov backed one in place ( yes this was the one announced last August ) then I couldn`t get any other funding. So what has effectively happened here is that access to funding for new competitors has effectively been blocked by giving the funding to those who either control the current market or who because they are engaged in research or educational activites will not be impinging on the aforementioned operators. By doing this the Gov is stifling any hope of competition in the market ( which they keep telling us they are all in favour of ) and protecting the interests of the mopolies that they helped create. As long as this is the case there will be no broadband in Ireland especially for smaller rural towns and certainly not for anyone living in an area with a low pop density. If the supply of running water were treated in the same manner only those living in the larger cities could take a daily shower, the rest of us would be left to take a **** on the side of the roads. Unlike you I don`t consider myself a "chancer" in the generally accepted term but I am going to thake a chance and put my own money into this, with or without the Gov`s help, and no I am not going to join some party just to get access to these gimps who control funding and who don't know the difference between a mobile phone and a tin-can with a string through it.

yellum

Will there be an official response to this by IrelandOffline ? Its shameful that a highly profitable mobile company got so much money when there were so many poor groups out there crying out for money.

[ Full Disclosure: I'm a member of CorkWAN. We didn't get any funding from this source but we did apply. We was robbed I tells ye robbed ]

Dangger

I have some interesting news for community wireless groups:

There is a group of wireless operators currently operating in the UK visiting Ireland over the next few weeks hoping to do a country wide tour. They are intersted in meeting community wireless groups to discuss future plans

I'll be in touch with CorkWan and DublinWan shortly regarding a meeting.

yankinlk

why were you robbed? you had every chance if you applied - simply put your model was rejected by a panel of independent advisors - it must not be good enough.

as far as giving the money to esat for esats gains...anyone that applied could use the money ultimately for their gain (i think its a stretch to call it profitable as only time will tell if esat makes any money from it) - but what did the governemt gain from giving the money out? the information that the group reports back, and there were strick rules on that as well.

why should they through money at bad ideas?

raindog

Originally posted by yankinlk


as far as giving the money to esat for esats gains...anyone that applied could use the money ultimately for their gain (i think its a stretch to call it profitable as only time will tell if esat makes any money from it) - but what did the governemt gain from giving the money out? the information that the group reports back, and there were strick rules on that as well.

why should they through money at bad ideas?

I agree with you that whatever proposal that Esat or O2 came up with probably sounded and looked impressive. Especially considering they probably spent at least an average workman's yearly salary putting it together. How much did you spend? Do you think that we are now going to see some serious broadband rollouts because these bumbling behemots have had their capital increased by .05%. Either you work for one or other of the involved companies/groups or with all due respect you are taking drugs.

Dustaz

Originally posted by yankinlk

why should they through money at bad ideas?

If you think trying to encourage broadband in regions where it would otherwise be impossible/unlikely rather than giving more broadband to sectors that should already have it but dont due to sheer incompetence, then i think your probably browsing the wrong forum.

yankinlk

the facts are, anyone had a real chance to get money, thats all im saying. The decision wasnt brown envelopes - it was based on technical merits. Any of these WANS are vapourware with no real future - and if they submitted to this call like many of us did, that was proved. Lets face it, the WANS are not even following legal power guidelines/restricitions and they will never be controllable.

Chaos-Engine

If these companies accept the grants (which they will). THen they are unde obligation to develop the WLAN networks... hehe...

You take teh pay... You do the Job

iwb

Originally posted by yankinlk
the facts are, anyone had a real chance to get money, thats all im saying. The decision wasnt brown envelopes - it was based on technical merits. Any of these WANS are vapourware with no real future - and if they submitted to this call like many of us did, that was proved. Lets face it, the WANS are not even following legal power guidelines/restricitions and they will never be controllable.

What are you talking about? You are all over the place. What WANs are vapourware?
Yes, part of the decision was probably based on technical merits but some of it should've been also based on actually helping the country to move away from a duopoly. That is the real problem here. Instead, the good old department did what good old departments do. They went for the easy way out. The safe bet. Even if these guys do squat with the money in real terms, the dept. can say they gave the money to the proven groups.
Well done guys.

dahamsta

Sorry yankinlk, but without seeing the applications and technical and business plans of the WANs that applied, you're not qualified to make judgements on their viability or technical merit. Your rhetoric on this matter is not "proof" at all, as any mathematician will tell you. Admittedly, neither is mine, but I have the higher moral ground.

On a technical point, CorkWAN's technical plan has been developed carefully around the RF limits set out by ComReg, and our network will be in full compliance when it rolls out -- representatives from ComReg have very kindly visited us in Cork to advise us on our approach.

Also, although we have had little discussion on the matter since meeting with ComReg, we did ask at the time that ComReg consider the limits and consult with their colleagues at European level as to whether there were technical or other reasons why they couldn't be raised, with a view to helping operators in the unlicenced bands cut costs.

And finally, it should be noted that CorkWAN can't be vapourware, since we have two-way committments with both our County Council and several development boards in the South of Ireland. It's hard work, but we will roll out.

Thanks,
adam

dahamsta

If these companies accept the grants (which they will). THen they are unde obligation to develop the WLAN networks... hehe...

Most, if not all, of the applications that were accepted are for wireless hotspots Chaos Engine, which will do very little to help develop Internet access in Ireland. This is the problem I have with the grants, they're not leveraging wireless as the replacement for cable it has to become. It's effectively another sop to Eircom's monopoly.

adam

BigEejit

I know this is offtopic .. but is CorkWAN extending out from the city centre at any time (in particular out to Ballincollig) ...

De Rebel

It seems to me that the fundamental problem is the overall size of the grant, €216k. In terms of what needs to be done this is a pittance. It is recognised that this is at pilot stage. Therefore what is needed is adequate seed capital to start a diversity of initiatives. For now, there is room for both the established operators and for innovators.

IOFFL's job in this is to lobby/campaign to have the importance and potential benefits of WLL recognised, and to convince the key decision maker that adequate funding be made available for pilot testing and if necessary for seed capital.

We have alternative backbones (New Connections/ESB). We need an alternative last mile. Cable is a dead duck and will never happen. And as we have seen attempts at competition using the voice network are artificial, laborious and non-productive.

The other other concern would be that Eircom/ESAT do not get a controlling interest in WLL. If that happens we are back to square one.

CorkWAN are to be commended on organising alternative funding. But this is a National Interest issue. Ireland needs a bold and imaginative approach to WLL. It will solve a number of problems and introduce balance into the market.