Starting problem

ColinM

Lads,
I wonder if anyone could help me with this?
My car has been sitting in the driveway for the last few months. Back in November I tried to start the car, but the starter motor only barely turned and the lights on the dash went very dim. I assumed that because the car had been sitting there for so long that the battery had gone flat or at least didn't have enough charge to start the engine. I didn't worry about it and figured I'd leave it until I needed to move it and jump-start it when the time came. Up until the time I parked it in the drive the car had no problems at all, so I assumed the only problem I had was a flat battery.
Now I think there must be another problem. I have just tried to jump-start it with jump leads attached to another car with a healthy battery. Before I attached the jump leads I tried turning the key, and it seemed that there was no charge whatsoever in the battery. Opening the door with the key only turned the lock for the driver door. The car has central locking and the other locks did not move. The interior light did not come on, and turning the key in the ignition did absolutely nothing. No lights on the dash, no noise and no movement at all from the starter motor.
When I attached the jump leads, the situation was like I described when I tried to start it without jump leads back in November. There was power as the interior light came on, and the central locking worked. Turning the key made the lights on the dash very dim, and the starter motor barely turned. It literally turned one and a half revolutions and then stopped - as if it was trying to turn something that just wasn't budging. I tried turning the key several times with the same slight movement from the starter motor, but nothing else.
I assume that jump-starting the car from a healthy battery eliminated mine from the equation, so that I should hear the starter motor turning continuously, even if the engine won't start. Seeing as I'm not, I'm assuming there's another problem. Can anyone suggest what the problem might be?
Incidentally, the jump leads I bought say that the positive of the healthy battery connects to the positive of the dead battery, but that the negative of the healthy battery connects to the engine block of the car to be jump started, as far away from the dead battery as possible. I tried it this way at first, but seeing as the car wasn't starting, I connected the negative to the negative on the dead battery with exactly the same results. However, when removing the positive cable, I noticed that the wire was very hot, and the plastic around the wire at the point where it meets the crocodile clip had melted. Is this because I connected the negative terminals of the batteries directly? I think I remember that there are two types of jump leads - one type where you can connect the terminals directly, and the other where you must connect to the engine block. I wondered why seeing as they were both just bits of wire with no electronic components. Now I am guessing that the type that must be connected to the engine is rated for a lower amperage. Is this the case?
Anyway, I'd be very grateful if anyone can help me out with the starting problem.
Thanks in advance,
Colin.

seamus

There's a few things you're supposed to do when storing/parking for more than a couple of weeks. Most importantly, as you know, removing the battery and disengaging the handbrake.

Have a look at your manual and see what else it says needs to be done when storing the vehicle, you may find something in there that you've overlooked.

Is there also not supposed to be some sequence when removing/attaching the jumpleads? Like attach the positive first and remove it last, or vice-versa? Just to make sure you've done this And make sure the car you're using to jump-start yours has its engine turned on

ColinM

I did attach the positive of the good battery to the dead battery, and negative of the good battery to the engine block (and then later to the negative of the dead battery) and removed in the reverse order. The engine of the other car was running.

I didn't know that the battery must be disconnected when not using the car for a long period of time, or that the handbrake must not be engaged. Why is this?

mike65

hmmmmm as said above make sure the other car has its engine running indeed get the revs up a bit. Another thing to consider is the quality of the jump leads, which sound rather insubstantial.
Are the battery terminals clean? If they are covered in corrosion the charge wont make it through properly.Have you tried hitting the starter motor with something big and heavy? It might be partially seized by lack of use.

Mike.

mike65

Originally posted by ColinM

I didn't know that the battery must be disconnected when not using the car for a long period of time, or that the handbrake must not be engaged. Why is this?

The battery might corrode or be drained by the clock, alarm or radio, while the handbrake can cause the rear brakes to bind so you end up will stuck wheels or
damaged brakes (if very bad).

Mike.

ColinM

Thanks guys - very helpful replies there. I 've seen a car where the rear brakes wouldn't release. I haven't actually tried the handbrake yet, and it has been engaged for the last few months as it's parked on an incline. I really hope I haven't got another problem in that. In any case it's good information, I won't ever forget that.
Ok, well I'll have a look at the terminals and give them a scrape with some wire wool. Maybe the starter motor is seized. I'll try giving that a belt so too!
What about my theory about the differences in jump leads? I chose the cheaper set cos I figured a cable is a cable. Maybe they're not eh?

mike65

Glad to be of help (if any of the suggestions works!)

Mike.

ColinM

Right lads,
I've cleaned the terminals and connecting clamps on the battery and repaired the jump leads. I checked the fluid in the battery and it looks ok. I tried jump-starting it again with the same results.
I consulted a Haynes manual and checked the section for troubleshooting starting problems and it suggests a few things. (I know I should have RTFM first, but sure only girls read instructions first, eh?!)

In case it's of use to anyone else:
If the starter motor fails to operate when the switch is operated, the following may be the cause:
(a) The battery is faulty
(b) The electrical connections between the ignition switch, solenoid, battery and starter motor are somewhere failing to pass the necessary current from the battery through the starter to earth.
(c) The solenoid is faulty.
(d) The starter relay is faulty.
(e) The starter motor is mechanically or electrically defective.


I don't think the battery is faulty, just discharged, and I reckon jump-starting eliminates (a).
As for (b), I can't really get at the starter motor as it's quite low down in the engine bay and the gearbox and engine are in the way of it. It's just too awkward to check all the connections from solenoid to battery to starter motor, and to be honest I don't think I'm up to the job.
As for (e) well there's no room to get a good swing at it to cure any mechanical problems!

There's a section which reads: "If the starter turns slowly when switched on, but the battery is in good condition, then either the starter must be faulty or there is considerable resistance in the circuit."
I reckon the heat generated in the cable would tie in with resistance in the circuit, so I'm guessing the answer is either going to lie in corroded connections or a defective starter motor.
I'm going to leave it for now though and have somone look at it when I can afford it. I'll try to let you know the outcome.
Cheers for now,
Colin.

milltown

If your battery is dead as the proverbial Dodo you will need to get some sort of charge into it before you do anything else. When you attach the jump leads what is happening is your battery is soaking up the available juice from the leads.
Ideally, disconnect your battery and connect the good one. If you don't want to remove the good battery connect the jump leads to your battery leads, leaving your dead battery out of the circuit.
If your battery is totally flat there's a good chance that, if it's a petrol car, once you disconnect the jump leads it will cut out any way as there won't be enough power to provide a spark.
As was said before, get good heavy duty jump leads or borrow a trickle charger and leave it on charge for at least 12 hours.

Chimaera

There's one or two other things to consider here - the internals of the battery may well have plated over when it went dead, in which case you'll have to buy a new one before you'll have any chance of starting the car. A new battery is about €50.

Also, when jump starting, the engine of the booster car should be kept revving at about 2000-2500 rpm to provide sufficient energy to start the car with the dead battery.

The connection of the leads doesn't make too much difference afaik - the main reason for not connecting the batteries directly together is to prevent heat build up (not 100% sure here though). A decent set of leads shouldn't melt regardless of how they're connected anyway.

As an aside, if you're storing a car for a while another useful thing to do is jack it off the ground so that the tyres aren't damaged by sitting on the ground for ages. It's worthwhile going out and starting the engine at least once a month, and letting it run for a while to keep charge in the battery, and reduce the chance of stuff binding/seizing.

The classic car organisations will probably have lots more info on storing cars for long periods.

ColinM

Thanks Milltown, I was making the (I guess false) assumption that jump-starting by attaching the jump leads from the good battery to the corresponding terminals on the dead battery was eliminating the dead battery from the equation. I suppose my way of thinking on it was that the current flow would bypass the dead battery and go straight from the connecting terminals through the battery leads and on to the starter motor. Thinking back to what (I think) I remember from physics class, wiring batteries together matching same pole to same pole is wiring in parallel, and wiring opposite poles is wiring in series. Now I'm not for a second suggesting that I am about to start wiring car batteries together in series, but I would have assumed that (totally hypothetically) if I wired the positive of the good battery to the negative of the dead battery and the negative of the good battery to the negative lead in the car to be started, and left the positive lead in the car to be started to the positive of the dead battery that this would indeed charge the battery and prevent the car from starting until sufficient charge had been reached.
(You know, it's getting late now, and I'm actually confusing myself, so I drew a diagram in case this makes a confusing read! - See attached jpeg)
To put it another way, I supposed that in jump-starting when "wiring in parallel" the path of least resistance to current flow is to start the motor rather than charge the dead battery.
Anyway, sorry for meandering off on a long tangent with this. It certainly makes sense to disconnect the dead battery completely and wire the good battery directly. I'll try that as soon as I get a chance and I'll let you know what happens.
Oh, and yeah, it is a petrol car by the way.

Sorry to make this post any longer than it already is, but Chimaera, you said a couple of things which raises another question which I have always wanted answered definitively. You say to keep the engine of the other car revving in order to provide sufficient charge, and also about when storing a car to start it and let the engine run for a while every so often in order to keep the battery charged. I've been told in the past from some people that the car needs to be in motion for the battery to be charged by the alternator. What you say obviously means that as long as the engine is running, the battery is being charged by the alternator. Which is correct? Maybe it depends on the car? Maybe some models charge the battery only when in motion and some do indeed charge as long as the engine is running. In my car I can see the alternator rotate when the starter motor tries to turn anyway. Can someone clarify this for me? I don't mean to be getting away from the original problem too much here, but I'm learning some good information for the future and also, in general, I don't like just knowing the answer, I like knowing why it's the answer! Thanks for all your input so far anyway guys.
Colin.

Borzoi

In the 'old days' when cars had dynamos, the car needed to run, with any modern car the engine running is sufficient as the battery is (re)charged using the alternator, a current generator running directly off the engine.


As others have said staring a car with a dead-as-dodo battery using a jumpers set is very difficult. If you can, borrow a battery charger - take out car battery, connect to charger for a few hours, and replace bettery in car - hey presto should be working again.

All the above knowledge is brough to you today by bitter experience.

Hellrazer

Ok the problem is definately your battery.Its next to impossible to jump start a car thats been lying up for a few months.Reason being that the battery is so flat that it needs a massive boost to get it going again.If you happened to have a 24v battery lying around this would probably start it.

There are 2 ways of sorting this out.
1.As someone suggested get a charger and leave the battery charging for a few days and then try it.

or

2.start the car on a push.put it into first(most people say second but being so dead first is probably better)then push the car up to speed and let the clutch out quickly.It may taka a few attempts nbut you should get it going like this.Then when you get it going leave the engine running for about an hour which will charge the battery back up to full.

Hope this helps
Richie

Spunj

You could also do what I have done in the same situations in the past and thats to take the good battery out of the other car and install it temporarily into the car thats been sitting. Once you get it started, leave it run a while to warm up. Then change the battery back to the flat one and try to jump start or push start.

Since you have had the engine running it should start a lot more easily. Only problem is if it won't start and you flatten the good battery and have to push start the other car

JabbaTheHut

Ok.Whatever you do,if you don't have ignition lights ,don't attempt to push start the bugger.You need a decent amount of current to power the ignition coil,and without that,you'll push all day,and never get a spark to fire her up.

What's your biggest problem with jump starting,in this case,is that your jump leads are crap.You mentioned them getting hot.A sure sign of too much resistance.Leads not heavy enough to carry the current needed.It's also possible that if it's a pretty big cc car,that it'll need a pretty current hungry starter,and therefore plenty of grunt from another battrey.Like,it's not going to make your life easier if your trying to start a 525 bmw,with a micra.The Micra's battrey,and alternator,probably wouldn't have what it takes.

As for keeping the engine running while you jump start the "dead" car,is because that when the car ticks over(800-1000 rpm),the alternator is not putting out very much power.(ever notice when you have your lights on,and you rev up the car,and the lights get brighter?)When you keep the revs up over anywhere around 1500 rpm,the alternator is going to work it's max,no matter how much more you rev it.It'll supply what demand is on it,within reason.So keep the rev's up.Especially in this case,when the one alternator is trying to run two battreys(one dead one).

So you can:

1 Get better heavy duty jumpleads
2 Swap the battery over while you start it(messy)
3 Charge the battrey in the car

Hope this help you

Turner

Just buy a new battery.

ColinM

Well lads, hopefully this will be the last update on the starting problem. Sorry it has taken me until now to follow up on this, but sometimes it takes me a while to get the arse in gear.

Anyway, I bought another set of jump-leads, this time they seemed to be better quality and the wire was about three times as thick as in the previous set that melted. I connected the jump leads (positive to positive and negative to engine block), waited about two minutes, turned the key and it started on first attempt and within about two or three revolutions of the starter motor. Happy days! I disconnected the cables (as the instructions on the box suggested) after three minutes and the engine continued to idle nicely. Nearly two hours driving later, the car starts fine under its own battery power so everything seems to be hunkydory now! I'm absolutely delighted that there's nothing else wrong with it and that it was only a discharged battery. So, in the end it seems that the lesson here is that all jump leads are not the same, and sometimes cheap does indeed mean poor quality.

I really appreciate all your input on this guys, and I'm really chuffed now that I don't have any problems with the car.
Cheers for now,
Colin.

ozpass

I'm delighted that your car works but:

ANYONE READING THIS- FFS DO NOT CONNECT CAR BATTERIES IN SERIES (NEGATIVE TO POSITIVE), ALWAYS CONNECT THEM IN PARALLEL (NEGATIVE TO NEGATIVE).

Even crapped-out car batteries will create currents of 100A plus when shorted out in this way. You'd be amazed what will melt with that kind of current running through it (heat+source of petrol+oily rags etc=bad idea). The car battery will also most likely explode due to heat and furious H2 production by the cells. Please don't do it!