Passports / Illegal immigration etc

dathi1

It was the best worst case scenario for Mc Dowel considering that he would have ended up redrafting a referendum on Irish Citizenship. The outcome of that would have upset Brussels as our Illegal immigrant quota would have hit rock bottom.

There also seems to be a confusion agenda by Radio media etc to mix both Illegal Immigration and Lawful immigrants..i.e.: David Mc Williams on Newstalk this morning stating that without immigrants we wouldn't have frontline services like shops and garages working 24hrs etc. The two are totally separate issues

daveirl

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Cork

I think the judgement was fair. We are now in a situation the same same as the US.

Our politicians were hinting at altering our constitution or even re- opening the good Friday agreement.

At least this is now avoided.

rien_du_tout

Originally posted by Cork
I think the judgement was fair. We are now in a situation the same same as the US..

So if the US does it, it must be right! I think it's far from over and I hope that they dont apply the new judgement to previous cases where citizenship was already granted. I feel that every case should be looked at on its merits and not simply gone through the motions that child was born here, deport parents.

Our politicians were hinting at altering our constitution or even re- opening the good Friday agreement

When did they hint at the second thing?? and was it in relation to this topic??

seán

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

a bientot

SCHENGEN SCHENGEN SCHENGEN

Whatever about illegal immigration and all that goes with it.... what about legitimate legal travel from non Schengen countries to Schengen countries..... freedom of movement, how are you?

It drives me MAD to have to go through a formal harassment ordeal every time I go to France and return to Ireland and I have been doing this for just over forty years.
Nothing has changed since 1962 when I paid my first visit as a child clutching my shiny new green document...
Today, I still have to ensure that my passport is valid to go to another Union country because Ireland and the U.K. refuse to sign the Schengen Agreement and Ireland insists that everyone arriving in Ireland has a valid UP TO DATE state identity document.....passport in our case. The U.K. authorities are more flexible and do allow E.U. citizens (only) to enter without this obsessive insistence on the document being up to date. The attitude would seem to be that a simple date does not invalidate a person's identity.
Our Schengen member country friends travel from country to country carrying their identity documents and show them for airline security reasons (and I totally agree and support this) but do not meet any formal immigration officers.
Berlin - Paris passengers are treated exactly the same as Lyon-Paris commuters.

As many who travel to Beauvais will testify it takes at least forty minutes for the customs officer* to check all passports from Irish arrivals.....there is less tension with arrivals from Scotland and it takes half the time. The officers here and immigration officers at Roissy-CDG explained that this hassle (thorough check) is a tit for tat measure because Dublin regularly sends French citizens back for having out of date papers...

My suggestion is that Mssrs McDowell and Cowen ease off and consider, perhaps now that our driving licences have become formal identity documents when we are driving, that we should be allowed to use these to travel to Schengen countries and the the two other E.U. countries that are not members of this happy club.

Of course, the Irish driving licence is also regarded as weird by other countries' police forces because it can go out of date..... When the state gives a French person permission to drive (having passed the test) then the licence is for life unless withdrawn by the same authority or the courts. Normal medical restrictions kick in at 65 or earlier where applicable. I recall two French policemen in 1976 debating how I could have a driving licence and not have one at the same time because my licence was out of date ....Irish style!

a bientot

* In France customs officers who are normally on roadway vehicle checks also check passports where required at airports within their patch.

seamus

Originally posted by a bientot
Today, I still have to ensure that my passport is valid to go to another Union country because Ireland and the U.K. refuse to sign the Schengen Agreement and Ireland insists that everyone arriving in Ireland has a valid UP TO DATE state identity document.....passport in our case. The U.K. authorities are more flexible and do allow E.U. citizens (only) to enter without this obsessive insistence on the document being up to date. The attitude would seem to be that a simple date does not invalidate a person's identity.

I'm not familiar with the Schengen Agreement and who it's affects/is between, but I would consider it common sense that your ID papers should be up to date when you leave your country. If I left Ireland with an expired passport I wouldn't expect to get very far.

Maybe you're referring to something else?

My suggestion is that Mssrs McDowell and Cowen ease off and consider, perhaps now that our driving licences have become formal identity documents when we are driving, that we should be allowed to use these to travel to Schengen countries and the the two other E.U. countries that are not members of this happy club.
Of course, the Irish driving licence is also regarded as weird by other countries' police forces because it can go out of date..... When the state gives a French person permission to drive (having passed the test) then the licence is for life unless withdrawn by the same authority or the courts. Normal medical restrictions kick in at 65 or earlier where applicable. I recall two French policemen in 1976 debating how I could have a driving licence and not have one at the same time because my licence was out of date ....Irish style!

The passport is regarded as the highest form of ID in the Irish State. It only makes sense that it be used for travelling to other countries. Atm, the Irish Driving licence is 1. Too easy to spoof and 2. Not carried by everyone, so I wouldn't call it valid ID for leaving the country. When the new, credit-card style one comes out though, I may deem it fit for use to travel inter-EU (like it's my choice )
<pure speculation>I think there's two reasons why the Irish licences go out of date - One is the obvious: Every time someone has to renew their licence, it creates revenue for the Government. The other I think is a throwback to older times when Irish traffic was on the honour system. If your licence goes out of date, and you don't drive then you probably shouldn't renew it because you don't need it. If you haven't held a licence in 5 years, you are required to retake the test - a very valid assumption that you may be rusty. Of course, this doesn't work, because everyone will renew their licence, whether they're driving or not.

a bientot

passports.......Schengen.........driving licence identity

Thank you Seamus for your intervention and it seems clear that your background is legal... thus you are regimented in your views.

The Schengen agreement was signed by most E.U. countries some years ago but the U.K. said no to it and because Ireland did not wish to see the customs posts of years ago reimposed but this time with a mission to check passports / legal identity documents Ireland declined also.
As outlined in the previous post once a person arrives in one Schengen country from outside he or she is free to go to other countries without further immigration checks or visa requirements. We have a sort of Schengen arrangement between the U.K. and Ireland but a person arriving in the U.K. from outside the E.U. and coming to this republic may also require a separate visa.

re the driving licence issue I await my visit to court when a garda eventually stops me and prosecutes me for not carrying my licence. It will be worth the 8000 euro to voice my opinion on this daft Irish situation and hopefully I will be given time to pay (I will not be in a position to go to jail for another nine years).
I will accept this nonsense when I am forced to pay a fee to renew my qualifications Inter Cert, Leaving Cert etc on a regular basis on a par with my licence. Does it not seem daft that my driving licence when it goes out of date will still be valid in every other country except Ireland?

seamus

Heh, my background definitely isn't legal. Law makes my head hurt

From what you've outlined there, it seems fairly safe and straighforward. Strikes me as a situation where we tagged along with the UK (as usual) and haven't considered it since. It may also be a case where someone may qualify for a visa in one EU country but not in Ireland or the UK - which is a fair argument. Of course, knowing nothing about it, this is as far as I can comment.

The driving licence thing I've never considered, it's just something that's always been there

There's me going OT......:)

pro_gnostic_8

A sensible and justified decision by the Supreme Court in my opinion. A victory for sanity. After all we were the only member of EU which granted automatic right of residency to the asylum-seeking parents of an Irish born child. (Or to a child born in Irish waters or airspace for that matter). This situation had developed to the stage where almost half of all births in recent months were to non-nationals, and costs had ratcheted up to an estimated 1 million euro per day. Ireland was seen as a soft touch by the economic migrant both abroad and those awaiting a decision on their asylum applications while resident in this country.

Contrary to sensationalist newspaper headlines this morning (Thousands of Children face Deportation, etc.) there is not going to be any mass repatriation. Each case will have to be judged on it's individual merit. I honestly cannot see children (say) 5 or 6 years old attending school and probably unable to speak their parent's native tongue being expelled from the country.But I do sincerely hope that this Supreme Court determination will be energetically enforced by the authorities with regard to any future births to EU non-nationals.

Originally posted by Cork

Our politicians were hinting at altering our constitution or even re- opening the good Friday agreement.

This would indeed be necessary if we were to legislate that Irish born children of asylum seekers should NOT be granted Citizenship. This Supreme Court appeal case has only revoked Right of Residence.

rien_du_tout

Originally posted by seamus
The passport is regarded as the highest form of ID in the Irish State.

OT: I agree that the passport is the highest form of ID here. But why then could it not buy me drink (on certain occasions) when it has a date clearly marked. I mean, it must be difficult to forge, being the mainn form of ID. It just strikes me as silly. Of course I've got my garda ID now so all those lazy people dont have to bother looking at the date. That's really all the age card is for, and it is helpful in a big queue, but it's just annoying to be denied alchol with a passport ID.

seán

--- Ireland was seen as a soft touch by the economic migrant both abroad and those awaiting a decision on their asylum applications while resident in this country.

I agree. ireland needs to have more stringent guidelines for those who want citizenship here. I'm not saying we shouldn't allow foreigners to set up their homes here, but i do believe that unless they're capable of fending for themselves (not looking for grants, the dole, housing permits etc) they shouldn't be here.

sry, one other point to make. Having children in order to gain residency in this country is an old practice. Its a loop-hole that needs to be stopped.