Advice wanted - mortgage for a gay couple

Stefan

Hi
I wonder does anyone have any advice on this subject?
Me and my partner are buying a house and are wondering how to handle the prejudice issue.
As I understand it - if we admit we are a couple we have to acknowledge that we are gay when applying for mortgage life assurance and this in turn (according to the forms I've looked at so far) means that we will be declared a "high risk category " regarding AIDS so we will be required to have be tested for HIV wheras as straights normally are not.
My questions:
Is this legal? Is it not discriminatory?
Do we have to get insurance in order to get a mortgage?
Are any lenders more sound on this question than others?
Are any insurance companies more decent than others?
Would we be better off to lie on the forms and pretend we are just buying together or would this get us into more difficulties later on?

Any advice appreciated

PS this Board is a great idea
PPS Please don't make this a "you should get tested anyway" debate. That is not the issue. What really annoys us is that we suspect the insurance companies look for excuses to refuse gay men.

You will have to get life assurance and assign it to the bank, if you are to get a mortgage.The bank want that in any case to cover themselves if , you are killed, knocked down by a bus etc.

There is no need in my opinion to complicate matters by informing, either the bank or life insurance company that you are a couple.
Frankly, it is none of their business.
However, if one or either of you were to die(God Forbid) of an aids related illness then the insurance company will refuse to pay out-Thats the worst case scenario, in that your partner would have to take on your half of the mortgage payments or risk losing the house.( In theory though,if your partner had savings these could be willed to the bank as a part settlement of any mortgage on death,thereby reducing, further payments on the house, without, any tax issues applying to the surviving partner on the amount of savings used to offset the mortgage)

There are of course inheritance tax issues, when one of you dies,in that the house would be willed to the other, who is not related.
But you have to take a judgement there as , if you expect to live another 20, 30, or 50 years, the tax treatment in your situation here may have been brought in line with what is proposed in the UK, indeed that could happen sooner, if it's E.U legislation.

Lastly, in relation to the question of discrimination, by lenders or Life assuance companies, you could of course take a test case to court, and possibly win. But in my opinion , you would be far better off and have less hassle , if you worked around the system instead.
mm

Sposs

I dont know if this goes against your beliefs,but would it not be easier then if you just sayed you were friends buying a house together,it would just make life simpler and the process quicker.

BuffyBot

Me and my partner are buying a house and are wondering how to handle the prejudice issue.
As I understand it - if we admit we are a couple we have to acknowledge that we are gay

Yes - I assume by the nature of your post you are anxious to be classed as a couple by the lender? TBH, I can't see why it's important for a mortgage - but thats another topic altogether.

When applying for mortgage life assurance and this in turn (according to the forms I've looked at so far) means that we will be declared a "high risk category " regarding AIDS so we will be required to have be tested for HIV wheras as straights normally are not.

AFAIK that's common across any kind of life insurance deal, which this effectively is. It is true that staight couples are not.

My questions: Is this legal? Is it not discriminatory?

Discriminatory yes, illegal IMHO - doubtful. I'm sure it would have been stopped if it was - no doubt they have some statistics they feel justify it.

Do we have to get insurance in order to get a mortgage?

Again, I think most lenders do require this.

Are any lenders more sound on this question than others?
Are any insurance companies more decent than others?

Not that I know of.

Would we be better off to lie on the forms and pretend we are just buying together or would this get us into more difficulties later on?

Well, it's what I would do. I can't see any difficulties myself, but give us some scenarios and I'm sure people will give some advice.

Victor

You might make general (anonymous) enquiries to your lender to see how they treat the various non-married couples.

Originally posted by Stefan
Me and my partner are buying a house and are wondering how to handle the prejudice issue.

There are models of ownership out there for friends buying together (make sure there are adequate provisions for a break-up, death, etc.) - ask your solicitor - and the banks are starting to accept these set-ups. Using this method of application might avoid what you might feel are awkward questions.

Originally posted by Stefan
As I understand it - if we admit we are a couple we have to acknowledge that we are gay when applying for mortgage life assurance and this in turn (according to the forms I've looked at so far) means that we will be declared a "high risk category " regarding AIDS so we will be required to have be tested for HIV wheras as straights normally are not.

I don't imagine anywhere on the application form for the mortgage or the life assurance where it would ask for you relationship with your friend. However, as insurance is an "uberimae fidea" (utmost good faith) contract, if you lie, you are at risk of invalidating the contracting (even if you have paid thousands for the benefit). DO NOT LIE ON THE INSURANCE APPLICATION FORM. If you wish talk to your solicitor, insurance broker or independent financial adviser (or talk to another one if you don't want to raise the issue with your own advisor).

Originally posted by Stefan
My questions: Is this legal? Is it not discriminatory?

It is discriminatory, but discrimination is legal if it is on a sound acturarial basis. It is possible that for such a policy (potentially worth €200,000 or more), you would have to have medical screening anyway, which may include a AIDS / HIV test.

Originally posted by Stefan
Do we have to get insurance in order to get a mortgage?

It will depend on the lender. You may pay a higher rate if you do not have the insurance, as you (an uninsured person) present a bigger defaulting risk to the bank.

Originally posted by Stefan
Are any lenders more sound on this question than others?
Are any insurance companies more decent than others?

I don't know, but all are primarily interested in the bottom line for them.

Originally posted by Stefan
Would we be better off to lie on the forms and pretend we are just buying together or would this get us into more difficulties later on?

You may not have to lie - only answer the questions they ask. DO NOT LIE ON THE INSURANCE APPLICATION FORM.

jd

what Victor said..
Look into "tenacy in common" rather than joint tenancy. My Gf are doing it as it will protect both our interests...
I know a few people who bought with their SO, and have now broken up...messy. "unromantic" as it may seem, sort it out when you buy the propert, cause all logic and reason can go out the window if a relationship ends

atgate

Hi

Myself and BF bought our first house 4 years ago and didn't want to bull**** about and lie so we got ourselves a mortgage advisor who reccommended that we preempt the insurance company's requirements and fill out a confidential questionaire - incedentely the same form that str8 single people had to fill out if their cover was to be over x amount. We did have to do a hiv test (mouth swab) but again we were told that everyone was being asked for a hiv test with their medical if the loan was over 150k (at the time). We weren't loaded and got v cheap cover.

Plus side = we don't have to worry about insurance co not paying out.

Down side = we may have been treated "slighty" different.

As far as the Building Society goes they never asked anything about our "status" we just bought the house together and both our names appear on the deeds and mortgage.

BTW as far as I know Irish Permanent only require that you "apply" for life insurance - you don't have to go through with it or can cancel it after you get the loan - although this would be a tad crazy, if something were to happen to you you'd leave your partner in the ****e!

On a related note - if you get your car insurance through Hibernian and you are a couple / partner the you are supposed to get a discount. I rang them up and they said that same sex couples should be no different but when the nice lady tried to process the application her computer wouldn't accept two males as a couple, bloody bigotted computers. I kept meaning to write to them and point out tht they were in breech of the equal status act but never did (lazy bas**rd that I am).

Anyway, good luck with the house, we're on to our second and love it - no more paying someone else for a roof over our head (oh except the building society

a

De Rebel

Stefan

A lot of sound advice above.


There are two separate deals here - the mortgage with the bank/building society - is a straight commercial transaction - the lender’s only concerns are (1) can you repay (2) what happens if there is a change of circumstances (death, ill health, redundancy) - the lender won't be too fussy about your status - please yourself whether its friends/couple or whatever. The second deal is the Insurance side - a different ball game altogether. Some points on this - throw more questions in if you want clarification -

• The Insurance contract can be purchased from any source - provided it meets the requirements of the lender; you are not limited to the lender or anyone the lender recommends
• The Insurance contract will always cover death. It may also cover (1) Critical Illness (2) Redundancy - these options add to the cost. Your (plural) circumstances will dictate whether these options are advisable or not.
• Most insurance forms have improved greatly over the last two years. Gone are the “Do you do any high risk stuff” type questions. The life insurance forms ask the same questions of straights and gays. Answer them truthfully. Remember, you do not need to answer any questions which are not asked. The form will not ask whether or not you are gay. This would be both discriminatory and illegal. I am currently looking at an Irish Life form (not advertising or anything, I just happen to have one to hand) and there are no questions that I could object to on the form. The only question that mentions any related issue is the following: “Have you ever tested positively for HIV or AIDS, Hepatitis B or Hepatitis C or are you waiting for the results of this kind of test?” For underwriting reasons an Insurer would be nuts not to ask such a question, and it applies equally to gays & straights.
• Remember that when signing these forms you give the insurer the right to access all records which any doctor holds about you. This right of access is irrevocable and the insurer may avail of it at any time, even after your death. An Insurer will almost certainly avail of the right in the event of a claim.
• In contrast to the above remember that STD clinics are totally confidential, and the records they hold about you will not be disclosed, nor will the results of any tests, nor will the fact that the test took place.
• With regard to the friends vs gay couple approach, unless you feel the need to crusade, it will probably smooth the path if you take the former approach. In london there are a number of intermediaries who specialise in providing insurance/mortgages/etc for gay couples. I hadn’t heard of any such specialist advice here yet, though it can't be far away.
• Speak to your solicitor and get an agreement drawn up which sets out the inheritance situation in the event of a death, and the handling of the situation in the event of a termination of the partnership.
• You are already ahead of most people in that you are reviewing the forms before proceeding - this is a very wise step. The worst thing you can do is to rush in and have the insurance company trip you up - if the mortgage is refused on these grounds - it goes on the record and all other insurers have access to the information.
• I am not in the business so my advice is that of friendly amateur – however there is nothing to stop you getting professional advice, independent of the mortgage broker you propose dealing with. Most brokers and mortgage centres offer advice free, on the basis that the commission they receive from the insurance company when they place your mortgage compensates them. You could also get advice from an advisor on a fee basis. This will allow you to explore options without commitment, and without compromising the advisor/broker. You can do that on a strictly confidential basis, and pay the agreed fee and then place your business elsewhere.

This is a topic which could do with a solidly researched paper, setting out all the considerations. I have seen it previously debated in a number of other fora.

Good luck mate. Don't get stressed about this, there are many people that have gone before you. And anyway there will be enough time for stress when it comes to choosing the curtains.

hedgetrimmer

Have you tried contacting the Eqaulity Authority? It's their job to offer advice that ensures non-discrimination on the gorunds of, amongst other things, sexual orientation in the provision of goods and services. It might be a good place to start, and us government folk aren't all that bad to deal with...sometimes

Stefan

You have raised many useful points which probably deserve their onw threads such as tenancy in common, cheaper car insurance (never thought of that) etc...

On our specific issue it is not that we are crusading - or explicitly declaring ourselves to be a couple - but that it is pretty obvious if 2 guys go looking for joint mortgage protection cover and both answer the so-called "lifestyle questionnaire" honestly that we are gay.

The one I'm looking at now (from Hibernian) says:

"5. do you belong to one of the following AIDS high-risk groups established by the health authorities i.e.
(a) homosexual men
(b) bisexual men
(c) intravenous drug users,
(d) haemophiliacs
(e) sexual partners of the preceding groups

Please indicate which. "

So I suppose I should be answering yes to (a) but I don't like it.
Do all insurance companies insist on these lifestyle questionnaires?

hedgetrimmer

Can they really ask that? I mean, can that effect that outcome? I would seem to me that that is in direct conlfict with the spirit, if not the letter, of the eqaulity act...

Victor

Originally posted by hedgetrimmer
Can they really ask that? I mean, can that effect that outcome? I would seem to me that that is in direct conlfict with the spirit, if not the letter, of the eqaulity act...

I think they can ask the question (but only on sound actuarial / statistical grounds), however I suspect there are problems with the questions asked, e.g. it doesn't ask about prostitution (albeit there are relatively good information programmes there) or clients thereof or other high risk behavior or incidents. I don't think the "health authorites" would have come up with **that* list. In that way the questions may be discriminatory.

De Rebel

Originally posted by Stefan
So I suppose I should be answering yes to (a) but I don't like it.
Do all insurance companies insist on these lifestyle questionnaires?

Proceed with caution:

There is a statement on the back of the Hibernian form "If your proposal is declined or if you are offered insurance on special terms then this fact will be noted on a central registry administered by the Irish Insurance Federation, and may be shared with other insurance companies as a protection against non disclosure of material facts" Be sure before proceeding that this is the best available option.

I would urge you to get independent professional advice - practices vary and you might encounter a different approach from a competitor. Or even from Hibernian itself. For example, I have in front of me a Hibernian form issued in similar circumstances entitled "Statement of Health". The question is phrased very differently: "Have you ever received any medical advice, counselling treatment or had a blood test in connection with AIDS or an AIDS related condition, or have you any reason to believe you might, as a consequence of your lifestyle, be exposed to such a disease?" The moral here? Search around.

Atgate’s approach is also very refreshing – and may signal something of a change in the market. Again, it shows the benefits that can accrue from dealing with a professional.

It’s a few years since I obtained my mortgage and the approach I took was very different, one that Victor certainly would not agree with. I ticked No to every bloody box on the form. But being single at the time my circumstances were also different – if I die they can bloody sort it all out and to hell with the life insurance. However I would endorse Victor’s advice, tell the truth.

There was a long discussion on this topic some time ago on the Gay Ireland mailing list. I recorded the following links which may be of interest, they relate to the UK but contain some sound advice.:

www.pinkfinance.com
http://uk.gay.com/article/money/insurance/873/p=0
www.compassifa.co.uk