Time for a government head to roll

hallelujahjorda

Surely now it's time for a government head to roll . . . . I mean, £5000 worth of cigars and booze might not mean much to Seamus Brennan but it certainly would make my Christmas. If Bertie is to retain any level of confidence he should give Brennan the boot . . . .

Maybe then, he can install a minister for transport who knows what they are talking about !

PH01

It looks to me that there is more to this at first glance. Here's a few guesses...

1. Aer Rianta are probably absolutely correct when they say Tiny Brennan received these goods. And the wee fella will probably, in the end, say that he did indeed receive them, but there was some misunderstanding on someone's part, or
2. Bren may say that he had (wait for it) 'no recollection of these transactions during the 90's, or
3. These goods were received but not by him but by some fella within his (Brennan's) organisation - queue fall-guy, or,
4. Brennan understood that these were 'gifts' from Aer Rianta and that he didn't have to pay for them, or,
5. Bren may say that he never asked for these goods and he never received these goods - it's their word against mine, or
6. This is just Aer Rianta playing 'silly buggers'. They've put out this story to discredit Brennan who is trying to break-up their monopoly.

Only time will tell.

Cork

This is just Aer Rianta playing 'silly buggers'. They've put out this story to discredit Brennan who is trying to break-up their monopoly.

I think the government does need to break up the Aer Rianta monopoly. It is going to take private companies tro build a new terminal at Dublin airport.

Don't be diverted by leaks to the media.

Nothing at this stage has been proven.

Many politicians received personal donations. I think no party can afford to make political capital out of this one.

hallelujahjorda

For goodness sake, this isn't about breaking up the Aer Rianta monopoly and it's nothing to do with the media. It's about standards in public service. We are spending millions of Euro on tribunals to investigate how much crooked politicians have STOLEN from you and me, Joe Taxpayer . . . and whats the point if we continue to sweep the dirt under the carpet . . .

Yes, I agree that any allegations should be proven but once they are heads should roll . . . .

If I behaved in this way with my company, my head would roll ! It's about time we insisted on the same from our public servants !

BuffyBot

Originally posted by hallelujahjorda
For goodness sake, this isn't about breaking up the Aer Rianta monopoly and it's nothing to do with the media. It's about standards in public service. We are spending millions of Euro on tribunals to investigate how much crooked politicians have STOLEN from you and me, Joe Taxpayer . . . and whats the point if we continue to sweep the dirt under the carpet . . .

Yes..because things are always as cut and dry. Newspaper reports are perfectly balanced and 100% factual. No one ever has a motive for a story being released into the wild. They just escape and roam free until picked up.

The world isn't like that I'm afraid.

Shinji

No one ever has a motive for a story being released into the wild. They just escape and roam free until picked up.

Whether there's a motive or not doesn't actually matter greatly. If someone in a position of public power and influence knowingly broke the rules for personal gain, then yes, a head should roll, because that person no longer deserves to represent the people of the nation.

Single trick for politicians wishing to stay in office - keep your hands clean and nobody can point out the dirt on them at inopportune moments.

gandalf

Cork again I have to disagree with you strongly. Aer Rianta as far as I'm concerned are doing a good job. They are one of the few semi-states making a profit and on the whole Dublin Airport is a success.

As regards this £5000 worth of goodies. Firstly if any of us "little people" who didn't pay for goods received nearly 10 years ago would have done time by now. £5000IRL of drink & cigars is not a political donation by anyones reckoning. Who ever the person is/are they should be booted out of office immediately and forced to resign as a TD.

This government and FF in particular are rotten to the core.

Gandalf.

hallelujahjorda

The world isn't like that I'm afraid.

Don't be so bloody patronising. The world will only ever be like that when we start to demand better standards from our politicians . . . .

Yes..because things are always as cut and dry

This is cut and dry . . . Brennan either paid for the gear or he didn't. If he didn't he should go . . . end of story.

Why do we have this ambivalent way about us . . . . if this were in England, Brennan would've been gone by now . . . in fact he probably would have been sacked for the fiasco over the road signs a couple of months ago . . .

bonkey

Originally posted by hallelujahjorda
Yes, I agree that any allegations should be proven but once they are heads should roll . . . .

If I behaved in this way with my company, my head would roll ! It's about time we insisted on the same from our public servants !

Or, changing the wording slightly...lets give him a fair trial, find him guilty and hang him.

You are pre-supposing guilt.

Here's four words which our fine legal system hangs on. Reflect on them, learn what they mean, and then try and explain your above stance.

Ready?

Innocent until proven guilty

Gottit?

You have no proof he did act this way, so stop saying "once" and start saying "if". Alternately supply proof. Interestingly, stories leaked to newspapers are not considered admissable evidence, let alone proof. Furthermore, the only evidence of debt-collection attempts that I've seen are that O'Leary claims to have "raised the issue with the relevant person" a whole 9 years ago. Why did Aer Rianta take 9 years to pursue payment through other avenues? If they did not make attempts to collect the debt, is the receiver actually to blame? Would you insist on contacting your favourite online site if they forgot to bill you for something, for example? Sure, nine years later they could say "of course we tried getting our money", but they also have to prove that they did.

This is far from an open-and-shut case.

Personally, I think Brennan is doing the right thing one way or the other. He is conducting an inquiry. He has 14 days with which to produce his findings. It is not in his, or anyone's interests to start giving the newsies piecemeal information during these 14 days, regardless of whether it is Brennan himself or someone else who is the target of these allegations.

The media, on the other hand, seem to take his reticence to discuss the ongoing investigation and so on as some sign of guilt.

One last thing - has anyone actually confirmed that it is Brennan that O'Leary is making the allegations about? All I can find is that it was "a minister".

jc

tHE vAGGABOND

I dunno about this one, Brennan has been around for ages, and I would think he was not that stupid as to take stuff like that, he was a good chief whip during the last dail from FF POV and has always been 100% behind bertie. So I will be surprised if he does get kicked out.

That said I've met him as is our local minister and he came across as a bit of a twat so I hope he jumps, then someone with a brain, Tom Kitt, will have to get promoted (to keep a Minister in Dublin South) and that can only be a good thing

hallelujahjorda

Ready?

Innocent until proven guilty

Gottit?

I'm sick and tired hearing this BS about proof. The weight of evidence required to prove someone guilty of misbehaviour beyond reasonable doubt is huge, and meanwhile we have to put up with the likes of Lowry, Burke and Lawlor walking around Ireland scott free having systematically screwed the working people of Ireland for the last generation.

I believe in democracy as much as the next person but true democracy is about getting to a point where your politicians are accountable to the peolple. We elect them to represent us . . . . they should do so in an honest and open way and not hide behind the law. When I look at ireland now, I see politicians scampering in every direction to cover up the latest scandal . . . . I see elected councillors and TD's stand up in tribunals (which cost me as a taxpayer a bloody fortune) and lie through their teeth . . . . I see a government bending over backwards to protect a blood board that killed its own citizens andquite frankly . . . . I've had enough !

So maybe your right about Brennan, maybe it wasn't him and maybe there is more to this story, but isn't it time that Bertie either let the country know that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable and that he won't stand for it from his ministers . . . or else stand aside and let someone else run the country.

And please 'Bonkers' . . . don't patronise me with your condoscending tones . . . . . If the weight of your argument is strong enough, they won't be necessary !

bonkey

Originally posted by hallelujahjorda
I'm sick and tired hearing this BS about proof.

....

And please 'Bonkers' . . . don't patronise me with your condoscending tones . . . . . If the weight of your argument is strong enough, they won't be necessary !

Fine...here it is without condescension....

Proof is an integral part of what is considered to be the justice system in this country. This should apply equally to all people in the nation - from the common man in the street to the politicians in the highest positions.

You seem to think otherwise - you are arguing that because of their high positions, we shouldnt need proof, or that the burden of proof is too cumbersome? We shouldnt need to be able to show their crimes/misbehaviours to the same extent that is required for the rest of us? Why not? You argue that they should be as accountable as the rest of us, but also that the burden of proof is nothing but BS. This is contradictory. If Aer Rianta accuse you of a similar action, they must prove it. You want a government official to be "as accountable" as this...then they must prove the allegations to the same degree.

Not only has Brennan not been directly named, but the full facts are not known. You, in your quest for "accountability" are already assuming that it is Brennan, and telling us that Bertie should give him the boot.

Not content with waiting a mere 14 days to find out who this is about and whether or not there even is a case, you want blood now....in the name of "maintaining a level of confidence". Tell me - exactly how much confidence would Bertie maintain if he fired Brennan only for us to find out in 2 weeks time that it was some other minister who was involved, or indeed that O'Leary's claims were entirely made up or deliberately misleading?

If we are not willing to apply our laws consistently, then they become of limited value. While I would agree that we probably do not apply them consistently at the moment, I think it is farcical in the extreme to suggest that a different manner of inconsistency would be a better solution.

Forget what these people do for a living - treat all people equally under the eyes of the law. After all, thats what its supposed to be about. Which brings us back to the fact that these allegations must be proven.

If I behaved in this way with my company, my head would roll !

Yes, and if you were wrongfully accused and fired before a proper check had been made as to the veracity of the allegations in the first place adn that they actually were about you, I'm sure you wouldnt be talking about "this BS about proof".

jc

hallelujahjorda

You're missing the point.

Politicians are using the law to protect themselves . . .

My insistence is not that everything our politicians do should be within the law, (that is a given, and we should expect nothing less).

What I am trying to insist is that we should expect more honesty, more accountability . . . our politicians should represent the people in an honourable way and if they cannot do this, they should resign.

It's not against the law for a county councillor to accept a brown envelope as a "party donation", but it's morally wrong and completely unacceptable.

Your entire argument is about proof and evidence . . . you don't talk about honour . . . . is it OK to do whatever you want, so long as no-one can take you to court and prove without reasonable doubt that you did it. Can we accept crooked politicians as long as they are the type that can cover their tracks well enough ??

Not content with waiting a mere 14 days to find out who this is about and whether or not there even is a case, you want blood now....in the name of "maintaining a level of confidence". Tell me - exactly how much confidence would Bertie maintain if he fired Brennan only for us to find out in 2 weeks time that it was some other minister who was involved, or indeed that O'Leary's claims were entirely made up or deliberately misleading?

You're right, I don't expect Bertie to sack Brennan today without any inquiry . . . the inquiry should happen in Leinster House, around a table . . . . once Bertie satisfies himself what has happened he should then wield the boot. Instead the accused carries out the investigation (mmmm? Interesting, this whole justice thing, I wonder if we should let all accused people investigate themselves) and is given 14 days to cover his ass !

bonkey

Originally posted by hallelujahjorda
Your entire argument is about proof and evidence . . . you don't talk about honour . . . . is it OK to do whatever you want, so long as no-one can take you to court and prove without reasonable doubt that you did it. Can we accept crooked politicians as long as they are the type that can cover their tracks well enough ??

Regardless of how you implement an honour system or a legal system, you will always have to accept those who are capable of covering their tracks well enough, relative to the system in question.

I have no problems saying that our current system needs reform, but the simple fact of the matter is that unless we can prove that someone has done something, then there is no question about guilt.

You talk about honour...but again, the inability to prove beyond reasonable doubt indicates that there is reasonable doubt. What you are arguing, in essence, is that reasonable doubt is sufficient to merit the ending of someone's career as long as they are a politician implying politicians do not merit the same protection under law that the rest of us do.

I agree that Brennan should not be in charge of the investigation, and indeed should have nothing to do with it - providing he is the cabinet member named, which we are assuming. It has not been stated for a fact that I am aware of. In the absence of a name, no cabinet member potentially implicatable should be directly involved in the investigation.

Like you, I agree that politicians are gettng away with far too much and its time for this to stop.

I agree fully with you on those points, but I cannot agree with your initial statements condemning Brennan on nothing more than a newspaper article without an investigation, and I cannot agree with your stance where you are consistently implying that even if he is not proven guilty, he is guilty and should therefore step down / be made step down.

If Brennan is guilty, then he should be made step down - and like you, this is something which I am not entirely sure the government will do.

All I have disagreed with from your original post, and which I continue to disagree with is the "guilty, even if not found to be so" attitude.

jc

Dampsquid

Brennan has just said that to the best of his knowledge it wasn't him who received the £5000 worth of stuff from Aer Rianta.

Cork

Aer Rianta as far as I'm concerned are doing a good job. They are one of the few semi-states making a profit and on the whole Dublin Airport is a success.

When you live outside Dublin & see how few flihhts depart from either Cork or Shannon.

I think Aer Rianta should not have hushed this storry up for 10 years.

I think as a state company - we are the beneficial owners and we deserve more.


Alot of the tribunerals going on at the minute are glorified talking shops. They are a big waste of public money and should be wound up.

What we need is criminal investigation - we need justice & fair play.

Did either Garrett or Charlie get fair play from banks when they got loan write offs?

Would you or I get similar treatment?

bonkey

Originally posted by Dampsquid
Brennan has just said that to the best of his knowledge it wasn't him who received the £5000 worth of stuff from Aer Rianta.

No doubt within minutes of that we had analysts deducing that he must be guilty because of his choice of phrasing....

jc

hallelujahjorda

He used the "I have no recollection" line . . .which leaves open the "On mature reflection" line should he need it . . .

different subject, same old crap !

Cork

But the saddest thing is when you had a Naional Daily Sunday printing the story - What proof had they?
You had RTE - harping on about it. It is so easy to blacken the name of anybody.

But the saddest of all - must be the opposition. By the way they behaved - they'll be in opposition for many more years.

Meh

Originally posted by Cork
Alot of the tribunerals going on at the minute are glorified talking shops. They are a big waste of public money and should be wound up.

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sg24M5EJDm6wk.asp

Mr Justice Flood also said the Revenue Commissioner and Criminal Assets Bureau have received in excess of €34.5 million in connection with tax compliance issues arising from the tribunal.

This means the tribunal, which has cost €21.4 million has already paid for itself and more money is expected to be clawed back.

Cork

I think that this is a sad inditement that you need tribunerals to collect tax or to stop corruption.

I think that they will not achieve much. They are pretty good for lawyers. They are pretty good for the media and history books but overall they are white elephants that we will be stuck with for years.

Cork

The whole Aer Rianta saga has been a lesson in politicians jumping on the nearest band wagon.

Has anybody heard anybody saying sorry to Mr. Brennan. I think that the media really needs to get its act together.

It is crazy that we use hearsay as a foundation to news storys and then we get a media frenzy.