Got my new phone line today..

stormkeeper

However, due to unfortunate circumstances (not enough capacity at where I live), I had to have a line splitter, and I now connect at 26400bps, as opposed to my normal 52000bps+

Asides from the loss of bandwidth, is there anything else I need to know about line splitters?

*I'm right next to the exchange practically, so I thought splitting the line wouldn't affect me that much.

tuxy

well it will affect u alot afaik lines on a spliter work over a differnt frequency then normals ones so v.90(56k) wont work and your modem has to revert back to an older slower standard(33.6k at best)
u also wont be able to get isdn or adsl unless the spliter is removed

stormkeeper

I was afraid of that..

I also talked to the engineer about it, and he said the only way he'd gaurantee speed is with ISDN, my mum doesn't want that, since the line would be in her name... It also seems as though Eircom won't be adding in a cable. So basically it seems, unless I move.. I guess I'll have no chance of ADSL

Thanks for the info, btw

tuxy

Originally posted by Kennett

I also talked to the engineer about it, and he said the only way he'd gaurantee speed is with ISDN, Thanks for the info, btw

yup if u get isdn a spare line from the exchange which they couldnt spare before will magically appear isnt that nice :rolleyes:

stormkeeper

what fun....

I'm just after looking at this tread, and it has me concerned...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.phps=&threadid=64594&highlight=Line+Splitter

Would this mean I can't switch to UTV (Which I was planning on doing?)

stormkeeper

Originally posted by tuxx
yup if u get isdn a spare line from the exchange which they couldnt spare before will magically appear isnt that nice :rolleyes:

It is odd how the Area Manager phoned me up and said that their capacity was maxed out in the estate i live in (Lakelands) (he talked to my mum about getting ISDN, but she didn't want it)... And the engineer telling me that ISDN is the only way to get good rates...

What really puzzles me is wouldn't splitting a line and ISDN be basically the same thing?

tuxy

well its differnt
isdn needs a full line from the exchange
a splitter shares one line with 2 or more ppl
could u get back onto them and ask them if the capacity is maxed out in your estate and thats why they cant remover your spliter why are they able to offer u isdn which requies the removal of that spliter
id be interested in hearing their answer

stormkeeper

As would I... I'll probably phone them later on this week, or the beginning of next week... I hope my mum doesn't give out about this, but it is my (err half) line, I'm paying for it, and it is a perfectly valid question.

I'll be sure to write down their response and post it up here when I have a chance.

phaxx

You had a full physical line before - get the new line removed, then get ADSL, which will split into data and voice, as far as I know...

stormkeeper

my mum doesn't want that happening... she wants 2 separate lines... i don't see her going into ISDN or ADSL unless half the line rental goes in my name... Which I doubt would happen... Guess UTV is my only hope now... (Funny how I had a full linein my last house, but not here...)

De Rebel

I thought that there was to be NO MORE LINE SPLITTING after 1st April 2002 ???

Also - I seem to remember that if you move to another carrier there is a requirement that Eircom hand the line over without splitters and other such C*AP??

Finally - I seem to remember an number of people posting earlier this year about line splitting and reporting successful out-comes of the following variety:

Split line - Hello Eircom please remove the DACS
Eircom - NO
Split line - Please
Eircom - NO
Split line - If I move to ESAT you must remove the DACS because you must hand over a clutter free line. Would you like me to move to ESAT
Eircom - NO
Split line - Hello Eircom please remove the DACS
Eircom - OK if you promise to stay.

And so far as I know you can subsequently move anyway, to UTV or wherever.

Not saying that it will work for you, but worth looking into a bit more.

Muck is the resident expert on such matters - if you see him about you might ask his advice.

stormkeeper

Hmm.. Odd...

Anyhow, I'll be sure to ask Muck for advice, thanks for all the help guys, I apreciate it a lot.

viking

Checkout this doc http://www.eircom.ie/bveircom/pdf/clfmp.pdf (technical)

The thread you are probably looking for ... Eiroms Pairgain aka DACS aka splitters are illegal!

viking

ednwireland

didn't know it was illegal i suppose it's not retrospective?
the only way i know to get service is to find your local engineer pub and buy him drink. mind when you're at the end of 16 shared lines then its pretty difficult fro them to do anything anyway.I dream of getting 26400bps
Mind you up the country it's fairly standard

LFCFan

so are you saying that €ircon have to clear your line of crap if you move to another operator? If this is the case and if everyone knew about it it would drive even more people away from €ircon. They really are the most useless company on the face of the planet.

spongebob

/me resident expert, I think not.

In plain English there is a difference between a WIRE PAIR and a LINE ....which were once the same.

A splitter ( DACS or PAIRGAIN) will allow 2 ANALOG lines over one WIRE.

You cannot run ADSL or ISDN over a split wire. If you tried to upgrade your second LINE to ISDN then a second WIRE would be needed.

Other posters said that these can magically disappear if requested....because you either ordered ISDN or a neighbour did which involved the removal of a splitter....especially on housing estates.

The previously posted link to Eircom shows that EIRCOM AGREED to STOP doing this in April 2002. Your were split post April 2002

You should complain to the ODTR based on the following.

1. YOU had a second line installed in order that you could have ESAT ADSL or similar. You informed the Eircom sales droid of this when ordering the second line by saying

"I want a second line in me house for ESAT ADSL"

2. Therefore EIRCOM may not split your line according to the copper loop management plan in the linked PDF.

3. Therefore EIRCOM have broken the agreement in that document. This is actionable anti-competitive (monopolistic) behaviour through an ODTR complaint on their website.

It is probably thrue in addition that!

4. The EIRCOM staff probably admitted (with the benefit of mature reflection) that they would not have split your line if you hadn't mentioned ESAT when ordering it.

That is VERY VERY naughty of them.

M

Dustaz

Kennet, on behalf of EVERYONE on this forum, i urge you to follow this up. Eircon have really fcuked with you on this one. Contact the ODTR and Contact Eircom witht the suggestions listed above. It cant hurt, and you never know where it might lead (connect at 56k rates at the least)

De Rebel

DO IT KENNETT

Dustaz is right (as always, him being a mod and all)

I am glad that Viking and Muck were able to fill in the gaps. Yours is a clear cut case. They should not have split the line. The should fix it. The only way Eircom will ever treat their customers like CUSTOMERS is if we answer back. You have right on your side and you have everything to gain.

GO FOR IT MAN.

sutty

Just on a note of ISDN. From what I remember when I got mine. when you ask them to upgrade your line (PSDN) They then run a test to see if you are the only person on the line. If so then they change what port your on. On the exchange they change it to a IDSN port. This is what they mean by being able to give you a ISDN line (that there are ports) and in fairness, you would be paying just as much to have ISDN as you would two PSDN lines. The ISDN would be a higer quilty and give you 64K connects on one line or 128 on the two... this is an absolute as the lines are digital.

bricks

Its cheaper than 2 seperate lines anyway.
Then you will get the full 64Kbits and you can go halfs on the line rental with your mother, she will end up paying less than before in rent. half the rent on 1 ISDN line is less than 1 Analog line.

flamegrill

Originally posted by bricks
Its cheaper than 2 seperate lines anyway.
Then you will get the full 64Kbits and you can go halfs on the line rental with your mother, she will end up paying less than before in rent. half the rent on 1 ISDN line is less than 1 Analog line.

It is indeed actually cheaper to have ISDN than to have two PSTN(not PSDN sutty *) lines. Ok its not huge but there is a margin.

As said previously they have to give you a fresh copper pair if you wish to move to another provider. i recently had a new line installed here and eircom were going to split but i iterated that I'm moving to a new telephony carrier so they had to bring in a new line with a fresh copper pair in it.


* Public Services Telephone Network (or commonly called POTS, plain old telephone system)

Paul

spongebob

see This thread on the April 200 2 regulations

stormkeeper

Once again, thanks for all your help guys, and believe me I will be following this up.

I just visited the otdr site just now, and i can't load it up at the moment. I'll try again later.

Edit: Erm... wrong way to spell odtr heh...

crazyasafox

Does anyone know off hand can you ring up and just ask eircom to do a test to see if your line has a dac's on it.

stormkeeper

You can actually look at the connection when you have dialed up (the 2 green computer screens that flash). double-click on those and it gives you info. if you're connected at 28,000 bps, or less, it's nearly almost certain you have a splitter, unless you happen to be in a crappy area.

or, just trace the phone line to see if you get this box:

http://www.emulation-storm.com/other/splitter.jpg

That's the netsplitter that was installed here.

crazyasafox

Hi Kennett
Not using dial-up at the moment as I have use of adsl but as regard looking for the box we are in a new housing estate and everything is under ground.Could you repost the pics anyhow as they did not work first time
Cheers

stormkeeper

I actually posted the link before the picture

The picture should work now, but if it doesn't, I'll look into it.

Btw, if you have ADSL in your house, you can't have a line splitter, for reasons listed elsewhere in this thread.

Btw, what county are you in, may I ask?

crazyasafox

Thats a hell of a box,you would think in this day and age it could be a lot smaller.As regards the adsl it is actually in the mothers place.I am over in Ashbourne Co.Meath and as of yet the exchange has not been up-graded,with any luck maybe the first quarter of next year.IT is a bit scary regarding how long the whole role out of adsl is taking as I got the mothers place put on the trials back in Dec 01.
As the lads were saying in earlier post you have a very strong case to appeal having that splitter in the house and even you don't go down that route from a money point of view it makes more sence to get a isdn line in

stormkeeper

Originally posted by crazyasafox
it makes more sence to get a isdn line in

I'm a bit torn about getting one... On the one hand it is better for data, on the other hand it is techically no better than PTSN/56k.

Unfortunately for me, my mum doesn't want ISDN, as it means we're back to sharing a line again, and I want UTV, while she wants to stay with Eircom. So, unless there are 2 different numbers on ISDN, this is a no-go.

And on the subject on living in Meath... Hmm, that's not too far away from where I am, I live in Kildare myself, very near Naas town, which is basically up the road from me.

crazyasafox

Unless I am mistaken the last time I looked into isdn you get to seperate 64k lines.The first one is usually your original number and the second is a number close to it but not guaranteed.While you and your mum would have to split the cost of line rental down the middle I am nearly sure you can tell utv what number(ie:line 1 or 2)you want to select for the "flat rate internet package" which if correct means you are left paying €30 to utv per month and your mum has the other line for herself

stormkeeper

Perhaps if I told my mum that, she might listen... Thanks for the info, btw. Only probblem is, it'll cost me more money to downgrade when ADSL comes in

crazyasafox

As regard costing you more money they have you by the short and curly's because you have already paid to get that crappy second line in and they will probally charge you again to upgrade it to isdn.IF you get any sort of response from the odtr you might get a refund for the second pstn line they put in and only have to pay to get it up-graded and in the long run your isdn line should have a better chance of passing the adsl test if you are with range of your exchange.I found this in the FAQ section of eircom's isdn

"Can I get separate bills for my two phone numbers?"

"No. But you can get a free itemised bill by registering with eircom.ie."

Which would mean that it should clearly show your utv usage and you mums

stormkeeper

Originally posted by crazyasafox
IF you get any sort of response from the odtr you might get a refund for the second pstn line they put in and only have to pay to get it up-graded and in the long run your isdn line should have a better chance of passing the adsl test if you are with range of your exchange.

In relation to this, I'm technically right up the road from the auto exchange (probably explains why I used to have connection rates of 54.6kbps). And on another not, I'm concerned about "IF you get any sort of response from the odtr you might get a refund for the second pstn line they put in" Would this mean I mightn't get a response from them, and if so, where should I take it to next?

"Can I get separate bills for my two phone numbers?"

"No. But you can get a free itemised bill by registering with eircom.ie."

Which would mean that it should clearly show your utv usage and you mums

That's reassuring, I'll have to show her this part. I'm saving the thread locally so she can see, it's too important to leave online.

Thanks again

crazyasafox

I think from what the lads have said in earlier posts you paid for something you did not get(ie:you paid for a second line and from what Muck mention regarding the bill of April 02 making it illegal to put a splitter on any new line)IF they had any sence they would only be to happy to upgraded you and give you back the difference
Second pstn line =€129.99
Upgrade to isdn =€119.99

Anyhows best of luck,I am off to my bed

stormkeeper

Good night, and thanks for your help, it's much appreciated

stormkeeper

Update on the situation:

I had a discussion about this at one of the loacl electonics shops, and the guy I talked to said I should get it fixed. I'll be preparing a few things on sunday, to call up the concerned parties on Monday, and/or Tuesday

crazyasafox

You should be in your rights,so stick it to them
Good luck

stormkeeper

Thanks, I have a feeling I'll be needing it...

Btw, since I'm sure this will probably be an interesting topic, I will most likely take down notes of everything thast goes on, and post them in either this thread, or a new one...

sceptre

Originally posted by Kennett
I will most likely take down notes of everything thast goes on, and post them in either this thread, or a new one...

Oh, please do. Interesting is the word.

stormkeeper

All I need to do now is make a list of what I have to do, and I'm away and a hack...

stormkeeper

As a followup to the new phone line post, I'm going to be phoning up Eircom and the ODTR about this and since I am going to be summurising what both have said, I was wondering if any of you guys had any questions I shouls ask to either Eircom or the ODTR on this issue?

I'll also be looking at the previous thread to see if there are anything that can be adapted to questions, but sometimes the way the question is worded, it might be taken the wrong way, so I want to ensure that I get the right questions across and thus making sure that I can't be fobbed off.

Thanks for your help in advance.

stormkeeper

So far, what I've come up with to register a complaint with the ODTR is:

1. The line isn't what I wanted
2. There is a line splitter installed in the house, which shouldn't be there.
3. This will not let me get Esat DSL when it comes in (not sure if I mentioned Esat DSL, or any DSL at all)


On the Eircom front, I'll be asking them

1. If Eircom can offer me ISDN, why can't they offer me a full phone line, even when they knew the capacity here was maxed out?
2. I will most likely ask them what the difference between ISDN and a line splitter is, to see how they answer it (I'm sure there will be an interesting response)
3. I will also ask them why the installed a line splitter, dispite it being illegal, and if they attempt to dodge the question, I will demand an answer.
4. I will ask them if they can change it to a full line, and if it isn't possible, why not?

*Note: I'm basing the questions on what info I got from this thread.

PS: who should I go to first about this?

De Rebel

go to the odtr

write, dont phone
keep it simple
stick to the facts

stick to the first two points on the first list. the third is conjecture. the second list is better kept in reserve for now.

Basically, your complaint is: you didn't get what you required/ordered. the service delivered is inadequate. it is a cause of grave inconvenience etc etc. you need it remidied as a matter of urgency. post or pm me with a draft if you wish.

Paddy20

Kennett,

Have you considered talking over your problem with your local - Citizens Information Centre [CIC] as listed in all telephone directories.

They are well used too acting as independent arbitrators in "Consumer law issues" and their service is FREE & Confidential too members of the public? - Why have a dog & bark yourself, especially when the CIC is a Government sponsored service that can not be fobbed off by the likes of Eircom!.

Good luck.

Yours,

paddy20;)

stormkeeper

De Rebel: Thanks for the suggestion of writing the complaint to the ODTR. I'll be sure to post up a draft when I start writing up one

Paddy20: I actually never thought of that idea. I'll be sure to to check out more info on this avenue... As far as I know, there is a Citizens Advice Berau (sp?) near where I live, if that's the same thing? Thanks to you for your suggestion as well

I'll be sure to keep everyone here posted on developments to do with the ODTR and what the CAB/CIC say...