Immunise or not

Nevyn

Should we immunsie our children for everything ?
Yes the meningitis vacine
but is these anyone else that knew whether or not to give thier child the hooping cough jab or that has let thier children have the MMR.

The Hooping cough should not be adminstered if there is epilsy in the family and as my dad has it , that was out of the question.

As for the MMR, well i am the eldest of 5 children and we didnt get the MMR (ok the rubella when i was 12 ) but we all got measles and the mumps and had no lasting sideeffects.

My Aunt and Uncle unfortunatly had a very very bad esperince with the MMR. They are one of the cases where their youngest child developed the signs of behavioural problems not long after the injections and has be diagnosed with autsism.

I dont want to risk that happening, and as of yet there is in my opsion not enough evidence to prove the MMR safe.

What is your views as a parent are we told enough ?

sceptre

I'm not a parent but I think children should be immunised against measles, mumps and the auld german measles too. Risks associated with actually catching them are just far too high to be ignored.

I caught all three as a child (never chicken pox though) (still occasionally have to explain to people that "yes, boys can get rubella/german measles you idiot"

Being slightly paranoid/careful though, I'll be getting my children the three separate vaccinations rather than the 3 in one.

And in answer to the last question: no, parents aren't told enough. The jury may be out on whether there's a connection between autism and the MMR vaccine but there's still a lack of information coming from established sources on the research that has been conducted so far on the question. I suppose part of the problem is that many parents like a simple answer on whether it's safe or not - given that the answer doesn't exist they're confused.

Nevyn

Currently as in as far as my Gp and local health nurse can tell me the singluar injections are not advailible here.

Parents in the UK have had to go and personally buy the single injections in france and then get thier doc to adminster them at home. This then raised the isuue about the parents buying it for firneds and that they did not have a lisense to bring the vacines into the country.

My Gp said that if i were to do this they could not for insurance reasons adminster the vacines.

Also I had my two year old back at play group after our fun time of having chicken pox and there were 2 children missing for the same time my daugther was. Both of them had caught Measles despite getting the MMR , one in June and the other in August .

sceptre

Oh that's interesting (and disappointing). I'd expect there to be a greater charge but didn't realise the separate injections weren't available here.

I'd probably still get it done - I was fairly sickly for a long time after getting all three and I got off lightly. Of course it would be fine if everyone else did it - under those circumstances you wouldn't have to (but I see the obvious fault in that logic)

MrPudding

Originally posted by Thaed

I dont want to risk that happening, and as of yet there is in my opsion not enough evidence to prove the MMR safe.

What is your views as a parent are we told enough ?

I have the opposite opinion. I do not feel that there is enough evidence of the danger. I feel that the danger of not immunising for MMR far outweigh the possible dangers of administering the comdined jag. I have a 4 year old who has received her MMR and I have a new baby on the way, he will receive the MMR.

I personnally think that not immunising children is socially irresponsible. I know that there will be strong feeling about this, especially given your personal experience Thaed, but for every piece of research you give showing a tiny but possible link between MMR and Autism your will find one showing no link.

Nevyn

I dont think I am being irresposible in fact the oppsite.

I dont send my child to school if he is ill indeed i make sure everyone i know knows if they have even a bad cold before coming to visit that way there is less a chance of thier children or children they come into contact with getting it.

I have 4 siblings and none of us ever got the MMR.
We all went throuigh the measles and the mumps together and none of us has had any side effects as a result.

My parents both come from large families and i have oodles and oodles of cousins and not one of them have any side effects of having measles or mumps.

Yes their can be side effects if you do not care proprerly for your children and strickly adhere to the guidelines when they are sick. If your child has measle and you are stupid enough not to keep your child in a dark room you will damage thier eyesight.

As for research there has not been any condcuted with the sole porpuse to prove or disporve a link between MMR and Autism.

Meh

Originally posted by Thaed
I dont think I am being irresposible in fact the oppsite.

You are exposing your child to the serious risk of contracting measles (which can be fatal) to avoid the small, unknown (and possibly even nonexistent) risk of autism.

Irresponsible is exactly the word I'd use here.

MrPudding

I was under the impression that some research had been carried out and this is where this "scare" came from. I don't have time to check but I will. I remember hear that several groups had linked MMR to Autism in children but that the likelyhood of a link was very very small.

I do not mean to belittle this problem or offend people who have had this problem but I'm sure if I had the resources I could prove a link between what kind of car you carry your baby in and cases of Autism with a similar level of statistical likelyhood.

Nevyn

Originally posted by Meh
You are exposing your child to the serious risk of contracting measles (which can be fatal) to avoid the small, unknown (and possibly even nonexistent) risk of autism.

Irresponsible is exactly the word I'd use here.

Well I did not make this decision with out confering with my doctor and checking with my mother and all the family I could.
I do not know 1 not 1 person that was nursed through measles that has died or has suffered any bad effects.

But i do know that my cousin is one of the cases where he was fine and passed all his developemental check ups but with in 6 weeks of getting the MMR started displaying Autisic behaviour.


IF i could get the seperate injections for my children i would,
but as i expain in a early post that is not advailible.

There has been no research done so far, but there are children presenting with Autisic tendicies with in a few weeks of getting the 3 in 1 MMR. There has been a lil research in the us that states that children that are Autisic have a higher level of Measle
antibodies .

So until it is researched and given the all clear I will not have my children injected with the MMR vacine.

MrPudding

Here are a couple of points for you Thaed, these are the main reason why I think not immunising is socially irrisponsible. that

1)Rubella is contagious from 7 days before to 5-7 days after the rash appears.

2)In most cases of rubella, symptoms appear within 12-23 days, and 20% to 50% of cases may be asymptomatic.

3)If a pregnant woman gets rubella during the first 3 months of pregnancy, her baby has a good chance of having serious birth defects such as deafness, cataracts, heart defects, liver and spleen damage, and mental retardation.


So what we have here is an infection which a person can carry AND pass on for up to a week before symptoms may appear, 20 to 50% of cases will not show any symptoms at all.

Here is a possible scenario: Someone get rubella, probably because they have not been immunised, they do not know they have it and they come into contact with a woman who is pregnant in her first trimester. This woman may not even know she is pregnant. What if she gets rubella? The risk of rubella in early pregnancy is fact. The risk of MMR being a contributing factor in childhood autism is tiny and possibly non-existent. What we have are some studies carried out in very small sample groups and giving a very weak correllation which the media has jumped on 'cos scare stories sell print and make people tune in.

If you want to put your own kids at risk that is your choice, what I find socially irresponsible about your action, or lack of it, is that you put people who you don't even know at risk.

Nevyn

I dont have a problem with imuusation for Rubella.
Currently they are still giving the Rubella jab to all girls at the age of 12 to 13 in the first year of secondrary school so there is little chance of a women catching german measles /rubella while pregant .

Originally posted by MrPudding



The risk of MMR being a contributing factor in childhood autism is tiny and possibly non-existent. What we have are some studies carried out in very small sample groups and giving a very weak correllation which the media has jumped on 'cos scare stories sell print and make people tune in.

I am not over reacting to a Media scare, this has effected my very own family. My first cousin infact. Which you would have seen if you had read
my earlier posts

MrPudding

I was aware that your cousin has autism. I have read all of your post with interest and I fact mentioned your personal experience. Again I want to point out that I do not mean to belittle your familys experience but because you cousin presented symptoms of autism after receiving his MMR does not prove a link. I can appreciate what it must look like to you but you have to look at the figures. How many children do you personally know who have received the MMR and how many of them now have autism? The answer here, from you posts so far, is one. It is my opinion that this is one too many but there is no evidence that the MMR is responsible. There is, howerver, evidence to show that not giving the MMR increses the risk to children and even giving the 3 injections one at a time increses the likelyhood of the child contracting one or more of the infections. I know it is hard to ignore personal experience but you have to look at the facts. The fact is your child is considerably more likely to suffer ill effects from not receiving the MMR jag than they are from receiving it.

MrPudding

Just heard a doctor on the radio yesterday. She is worried about the drop off in the numbers of children getting their MMR. Last year there were 1200 cases of measles in Ireland and three children died as a result. They are expecting even worse figures this year. It seems a terrible risk to me.

Talliesin

I see your doctor on the radio and raise you a doctor on the web.

The experts disagree. There is no completely convincing evidence on either side. This leaves us with two choices as to the manner in which we decide whether or not to immunise our kids.

1. Read as much as we can, trying to arrive at a the best decision, although unfortunately this may come down to intuition and instinct in the end.
2. Much like the same, but calling those who disagree with us "irresponsible" because insulting them makes us feel more confident in the validity of our choice.

MrPudding

Originally posted by Talliesin
The experts disagree. There is no completely convincing evidence on either side. This leaves us with two choices as to the manner in which we decide whether or not to immunise our kids.

One thing that the experts do agree on is that if you are not vaccinated against a disease you can catch that disease. Measles kills kids, simple, this cannot be denied. 3 kids last year in Ireland alone.

From The Vernon Coleman Web Page

This article is taken from Dr Vernon Coleman’s Health Letter. It gives general material and opinions for information only and is not to be considered an alternative to professional medical advice. Readers should consult their family doctors or other qualified medical advisers on any matter relating to their health and wellbeing.

[/B]

Seeing this at the top of a article of someone giving medical opinion does not fill me with confidence.

I take your doctor(MD or PHD?) on the web and raise you most doctors in all the Irish Health Boards and most Doctors in the UK and Northern Ireland health boards. You will see them on tv, hear them on the radio and read them in the papers. You are statistically more likely to harm your child by not vaccinating them.

I do not mean to insult anyone but if someone asks me for my opinion I will give it. My opinion, in this case, happens to be that given the weight of evidence it is socially irresponsible not to vaccinate children.

I have no lack of confidence with the validity of my choice. When it come to the life of my child I will not make a decision unless I am as sure as I can be of the possible effects.

Talliesin

Seeing this at the top of a article of someone giving medical opinion does not fill me with confidence.

Yes, obviously since he says that you shouldn't just blindly follow the opinion of a single doctor who hasn't actually met or examined you he's some sort of quack.

MrPudding

Originally posted by Talliesin
Yes, obviously since he says that you shouldn't just blindly follow the opinion of a single doctor who hasn't actually met or examined you he's some sort of quack.

Have you met or been examined by this man? Do you know what his qualifications are? If not then you are being a little hypocritical here. Perhaps you have perhaps you do but pardon me if I do not put much stock in the word of a person who, by his own admission, should NOT be taken "as an alternative to professional medical advice."

I have met and been examined by my doctor, my daughter has been met and examined by her doctor. I have no doubts as to the qualifications of my doctor, there is no sign on his door saying....

"
This doctor gives general material and opinions for information only and is not to be considered an alternative to professional medical advice. Readers should consult their family doctors or other qualified medical advisers on any matter relating to their health and wellbeing. "

I will admit that I have some missgiving about how health boards are run both here and in the UK, but in general I am very confident in the abilities of the medical pracitioners. If a Doctor manages to get to a senior position in such an organisation I will listen to what they say.

Talliesin

Actually I happen to know that he is a M.D. and experienced G.P.

At no point does he say that his opinion "should not be taken as an alternative to professional medical advice." What he says is that his website should not be used as an alternative to professional medical advice. That is also true of any website, medical dictionary, and so on. Only a cretin would suggest otherwise, not matter how well-qualified the author.

Nevyn

I did consult with both the gps in my practice and the 2 pratice nursess, the local health clinc and the gp of the family member i mentioned. As none of them could answer our questions and leave us with out a doubt we took the time to think long and hard about the choice We made for both our children.

Children may still get measles after bing vacnincted I wonder if any of those 3 cases had been.

foxinsocks

Try to keep responses as objective as possible, and remember just because someone else's attitude to parenting is different to yours, doesnt mean that they are wrong, and you are right, or that they are irresponsible.

Please, all, take out the personal attacks, I for one have found a lot of this discussion enlightening, not being aware of any issues with the MMR, or even if im honest, what the MMR was (i had an independent measles vaccine when i was 10, and rubella vaccine in school when i was 12, and suffered the real life mumps when i was 4). Seeing the discussion disintegrate into what it has is neither constructive nor informative.

In the meantime here's A Society formed to provide information on ASD in Ireland

Fox_in_Socks
Keepin it cool, or something...

MrPudding

First of all let me say that if any of my comments came across as a personal attack that that was not the intention and I apologise.

Now, Firstly the medical disclaimer that I quoted refers specifically to the article which follows it. It does not mention the website, just the article which follows. Given this I will put no stock in his words and I do not think this is unreasonable.

Thaed, between what you have posted here and in other threads it is obvious that you care deeply for you children. The problem we have as parents when dealing with the medical profession is that there are no guarantees. No doctor will tell you that the MMR vaccine is safe, the reason, however small the likelihood it might not be. Here are a few questions for you doctor. Can you guarantee that if I take aspirin nothing bad will happen? No. Can you guarantee that if I give my daughter Venos for her sore throat that she will not have any ill effects? No. The unfortunate thing here is that even in such an important field as medicine, there can be no guarantees. You can never prove a negative. You can never prove with 100% accuracy that x will not lead to y.

I do not know if the 3 children who died had been vaccinated. What is clear though is that there is an inverse link between vaccinations levels and cases of measles and deaths. This cannot be disputed. When vaccination levels fall off cases of measles and deaths from measles rise.

Nevyn

I didnt get upset by any of the comments
this is a rather emotive issue to say the least and that makes for a heated debate.

I'm still pursuing the possiblity of getting the singular vacines hoping there is way arround the red tape.


I know that there are no Guarantees for a lot of things in this life and the MMR is not the only medical pratice i have questioned . The 1st meeting between me and my midwife was a lot of fun

Thanks for your Concern MrPudding and for your candour.

And Thanks to Foxy

MrPudding

FYI Thaed I saw a thing on TV about some medical practice in Dublin that was offering the individual jags. It was €255 or something like that. I'm afraid I don't remember any details but they are available.

MrP

Talliesin

Now, Firstly the medical disclaimer that I quoted refers specifically to the article which follows it. It does not mention the website, just the article which follows. Given this I will put no stock in his words and I do not think this is unreasonable.

It is unreasonable because it lacks reason.
None of your posts are suitable to be used as a replacement to a consultation with a doctor, does that make your statements equally untenable?

What is clear though is that there is an inverse link between vaccinations levels and cases of measles and deaths.

Indeed. That is not the only matter for consideration however.
I agree that there the vaccines work (as far as I know). It's hard to measure just how much they work, especially since vaccination programs don't operate in a vacuum and it is hard, if not impossible, to separate the effects of the vaccine from the effects of other preventative measures, but I don't doubt that they do indeed work and hence there is a good case for the pro-vaccine side.
The question is whether the risk of side-effects is small enough to justify the vaccination. These side-effects are both on the individual level (i.e. side-effects that may affect an individual recipient) and at the societal level (i.e. if a vaccine only affects some strains of a disease it's use could increase the occurance of the other strains).
Further, the risks vary from vaccine to vaccine. Small-pox vaccine is known to carry some risk. That is not disputed, though the degree of risk is. Other vaccines have been used for a long time with little or no evidence of any risk.

I am not arguing against vaccination. What I am arguing against is firstly an attitude of blind trust in technology, and secondly an attitude of hostility towards those who after examining the facts and expert opinions decide to forego or postpone vaccination.