Esats 256 DSL offer

Dustaz

Can someone explain to me what is the difference in cost to the ISP between 256k customers and 512 customers assuming both customers have identical surfing habits?

Let me ask you another question. Would you accept FRIACO if it was 28k only?


*Edit*

I split this out from the bashers thread and was going to integrate it with the existing one, but imo that has strayed into the whens and wheres. Lets keep this thread for discussing the idea of 256k broadband.

CivilServant

Let me ask you another question. Would you accept FRIACO if it was 28k only?

Abso****inglutely!! 28k left on all bloody day, I would take that in a heartbeat. For those with a sat connection that would be fantastic. You could stay on all day and not pay any extra for peak hours. I think a lot of people here are sick of paying extra just to log on during the daytime.

Just today I left the comp on all night and the shutdown application didn't shutdown at all. I woke up and found I spent an extra €4 on net time. I'm not a cheapskate but all these €4 mornings will catch my bank account unawares. I will thank the telecoms gatekeepers when friaco is available to the masses!

PiE

He said 28k only. What about people without Sat conns? Downloads would be a joke. Pages would take twice as long as they already do to load and just generally using the internet would be a trial.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by PiE
Correct me if I'm wrong but... what's to stop Esat offering 512k at €50? Once they buy the stuff in the exchange, it costs the same for a 256k line and a 512k line, just a slight adjustment to raise it to the latter... right?

I doubt if there is much difference between the two. The main purpose, I would think, is to provide a tiered package and maximise revenue. One would hope that competition would eventually iron out this sort of thing.

MagicBusDriver

Originally posted by Dustaz
Can someone explain to me what is the difference in cost to the ISP between 256k customers and 512 customers assuming both customers have identical surfing habits?

Let me ask you another question. Would you accept FRIACO if it was 28k only?

The cost is higher because if you need more bandwidth at the if the user decided to use the connection to its potential, to keep to realistic contention ratios

ESATBT cannot assume you will use the same bandwidth. On ISDN I downloaded 1GB per month, on ADSL ~4GB. It I had a uncapped connection I would imagine I would dl ~20GB per month.

PiE

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I doubt if there is much difference between the two. The main purpose, I would think, is to provide a tiered package and maximise revenue. One would hope that competition would eventually iron out this sort of thing.

Yea but surely eircom are charging them the same amount per month as they would if Esat were offering 512k right? So Esat are making a loss on this?

BoneCollector

Let me ask you another question. Would you accept FRIACO if it was 28k only?

YES! if it was about €10 pm and 24/7
(the important thing here is ACCESS!)
speed is not a Consideration especialy if your only browsing or runing email

(i seem to remember someone saying the same thing about ACCESS at the telco meeting a few months ago too)

Dustaz

Thread split (see edited post at top).

A few things.

1. I asked a rhetorical question above. In a non-bitstream envoiroment, it really makes no difference to esat if they give the customer 256k or 512k. They have lots of bandwith and as skeptic said, they are simply creating a two tiered system to maximize profits.

One would hope that competition would eventually iron out this sort of thing
This is my problem. We cannot hope anymore. We know from bitter experience in the last ten years that competition is a little thin on the ground here.


2. Yes, i meant 28k FRIACO on copper wires only.
Frankly bonecollector, You expect me to believe that if a company offered 28k flat rate only, you wouldnt be here complaining to anyone whod listen that it was a disgrace? Quite rightly too, it WOULD be a disgrace. 56k is an accepted standard.

You took a figure of €10 out of nowhere. Well, lets compare that to the broadband situation. Would you pay €10 for 28k if 56k flate rate was availible for €20? Thats what esat are offering.

If flat rate is introduced next year (which is becoming less of a dream). Where will it leave this offer?

An ISDN line with FRIACO would make much more sense than paying €50 for 256k dsl.

Id love to think that rather than reduce the price on this offer, esat would up the bandwith for the same price, but can we be sure thats what they will do?

I might be mistaken (as usual folks, please correct me if im wrong) but 256k is not a widely used standard anywhere, except for remote areas where IDSL must be used. Personally, id have problems calling this Broadband at all and put it in the same narrowband bracket as ISDN.

DC

I've seen 384 mentioned quite a few times, but never 256. However, when faced with, as I am, paying 90 euro per month, saving 40 euro by downgrading will be very tempting - unfortunately.....

I agree with the sentiment that its lowering the bar and profiteering. But, anything that helps demand for broadband, i.e. affordability is a good thing. When we have Irish people connecting at 256 and wondering why all this broadband content out there is aimed at ppl with 512+ connections, demand for higher speeds at the same price will grow.

Remember there is a certain price point that the masses will accept. IF they need higher speeds, they won't pay more.

Dustaz

Originally posted by DC
When we have Irish people connecting at 256 and wondering why all this broadband content out there is aimed at ppl with 512+ connections, demand for higher speeds at the same price will grow.

The only precedent for this is the jump from 28k -> 33k -> 56k. I however dont share the view that this will automatically happen.

Remember there is a certain price point that the masses will accept. IF they need higher speeds, they won't pay more. [

This price point has been reached with 512k in almost every other broaband market around. Why should we be different yet again?

DC

BTW, I have a supposed 56K modem in my Thinkpad that only ever seems to connect at 26.4K. Damn winmodems.....

Believe me, 28K always on is no good. You might as well revert to your local library for getting information.

And if like me you have shared access to a 2MB line at work, then it is painful to go back to a modem at home. Painful!

segadreamcast

"BTW, I have a supposed 56K modem in my Thinkpad that only ever seems to connect at 26.4K. Damn winmodems....."

Right. That is in relation to the quality of your phone line, ever considered plugging your thinkpad in somewhere else (after all, it is a laptop) and see the 56k actually get used to decent potential? I use my laptop in several locations and the connections vary from a 48-54k max to a 16-24k low. It is just to do with where you are it seems - quality of line etc.



Now then, would I accept 28k flatrate? Yes :rolleyes: but I'd even take the current UTV off-peak offering over it.

Perhaps I'm wrong - but don't Esat pay for the bandwidth, hence it would make sense for them to cut down on it?

Bard

Just because someone would accept a 256Kbps DSL based product and pay half what the rate is for a 512Kbps DSL based product for it doesn't mean that they'd do the same for a 28.8Kbps flat rate product.

256Kbps is a vast improvement over what most people here are used to. It's an acceptably fast speed for Internet access.

28.8Kbps, by contrast, is not.

--

Yes, I'd accept the 256Kbps product (at €49.50 + VAT)

Why? It's nice and fast and it's more within my budget than Eircom's offering.

No, I wouldn't accept a 28.8Kbps flat-rate product (at ANY price)

Why? It's a step backwards to an un-acceptably poor standard of speed.

De Rebel

Without turning this into something that belongs in net/comms, could someone with a deep technical knowledge explain to me in english whether the speed (i.e.256K) is the only issue or does contention and the overall number of concurrent users play a big part in the quality of service as well?

vAWOL

Just today I left the comp on all night and the shutdown application didn't shutdown at all. I woke up and found I spent an extra €4 on net time

Get one of those timers for your plug, ie when certain time comes, power goes.

Matt Simis

Originally posted by Dustaz


An ISDN line with FRIACO would make much more sense than paying €50 for 256k dsl.

Id love to think that rather than reduce the price on this offer, esat would up the bandwith for the same price, but can we be sure thats what they will do?

I might be mistaken (as usual folks, please correct me if im wrong) but 256k is not a widely used standard anywhere, except for remote areas where IDSL must be used. Personally, id have problems calling this Broadband at all and put it in the same narrowband bracket as ISDN.

Why would you pay for FRIACO ISDN over €50 ADSL? Presumably the ADSL connection is always on and you dont have a cap, then youre laughing. €50 a month to download stuff at upto 32Kps would be great. The price is right and the speed is twice as fast as similary (well, rental alone if €30) priced ISDN with the benifit of being always on.

To me, it looks like the perfect start to a service, start out at low price and low (for BB) speed, which could be increased to remain competitive in the future.



Matt

Canadian

256 kb/s is a great 'part' of the solution....They call it market segmentation where I come from.

The 256 kb/s product was introduced in Canada at a price point to put all the dial-up ISPs out of business. (I think $20/month unlimited). I don't know anyone who uses dialup anymore.

The regular ADSL and Cable access is still at 3 MB/sec and costs about $40/month. (There is some higher speed stuff available from the phone company for $60/month)

All products have their own markets - for those who need the bandwidth for downloads and gaming, and those who just like sending emails and reading the paper online.

My mom was thrilled when she downgraded and was able to save $20/month.

Its just a sign of a maturing market (not here, of course).


** All prices in Canadian Dollars.

spongebob

Service Levels

Originally posted by De Rebel
Without turning this into something that belongs in net/comms, could someone with a deep technical knowledge explain to me in english whether the speed (i.e.256K) is the only issue or does contention and the overall number of concurrent users play a big part in the quality of service as well?

You are correct in saying that this is an issue.

A DSL exchange may have ....say.... 100 x 256k users out the back into a fibre. So if they are all hammering the line they could suck 25.6Mb concurrently.

The back end may only have a 10Mbit connection based on the generally safe assumption that

10 users will hammer the line 10 x 256k = 2.5Mbit

15 will be steady 15 x 128k = 1.8Mbit

50 users will lightly use it ..gammers surfers 50 x 64k = 3.2Mbit

25 will be inactive at any given time = 0Mbit

Assume normal usage of 7.5Mbit based on those assumptions.

So you only need 10Mbit or so to keep them ALL happy.

Now......what happens if you get 20 Hogs?

This is where the stuff like contention ratios comes in. If you have a load of gamers and browsers its usually OK but if you have a Linux distro Pig or an anything ending in 'z' hog or a Kazaa muppet they could well decide that 6-12PM daily is the best time to do their thing and feck it up for all the rest on that exchange.

M

Mork

Worth a read:

http://www.esatbt.com/esatcom/pr20022410-2.htm

DSL @ €59 can be too bad.

Anybody have any more details about the pro's and more importantly the cons about this service?

Mork

oscarBravo

Originally posted by vAWOL
Get one of those timers for your plug, ie when certain time comes, power goes.

Hmm.

It's not for everyone, but: I have an old PC (it's a K6-2 450, but a 486 would probably do just as well) running Debian, with the modem attached to it. It's set up as a masquerading firewall so that the other 3 PCs can use it for shared Internet access. When I want to get online I ssh into it and pon. When I'm finished I poff. In case I forget (or leave a big download running) I have a crontab set up to run poff at 7am weekday mornings. Obviously I'm on UTVip.

Back on topic: I definitely wouldn't accept a flatrate 28k connection -- once you open a second browser window, 28k becomes useless. Even at the moment, 56k (45k realistically) is a challenge.

Supercell

Would you accept FRIACO if it was 28k only?

NO, not even if it was free, i'd use 56k even if i had to pay more, 28.8 maybe was super fast in the bulliton board days, now, its complete and utter tosh.

Offering 28.8 to todays computer user is like offering Michael Schumacher a donkey and cart to drive, while a caveman might think its a good deal, he sure as hell wouldnt.

Problem is that most users in Ireland are used to the caveman treatment and will put up with such offerings, whilst the rest of the civilised world speeds away, sad thing is that most of them have no concept of what they are missing.

Fallschirmjager

i agree with longfield..


to be honest at the rate software is going the only thing you will buy is a code to activate everything else will be download

and since the average game/software/system/applet is going to get huge 256 is just the start...


but 28k is a backward step...and to be honest since i live in the middle of ****ing nowhere the chance of adsl is limited -- it is still what we need...or something faster...spped is where it is at

Hannibal_12

Originally posted by Longfield
NO, not even if it was free, i'd use 56k even if i had to pay more, 28.8 maybe was super fast in the bulliton board days, now, its complete and utter tosh.

Offering 28.8 to todays computer user is like offering Michael Schumacher a donkey and cart to drive, while a caveman might think its a good deal, he sure as hell wouldnt.

Problem is that most users in Ireland are used to the caveman treatment and will put up with such offerings, whilst the rest of the civilised world speeds away, sad thing is that most of them have no concept of what they are missing.

Agreed, 100%, wholeheartedly,every word. I actually get frightened when I see people expressing their acceptance of 28k flatrate (even if its only theoretical). Longfield is right, I often think Ireland is in some sort of time worp where 4 months here is 2 years everywhere else. The only benefit of that is longer life not a better internet experience. I have been waiting patiently for broadband for almost 5 years now and with each passing year the internet becomes more "broadband friendly" i.e larger files etc. I went to update a few drivers the other day and the graphics alone were about 10-12 mb, sound was 24 mb!!!!. Needless to say I didn't bother and I am getting sick of "not bothering" because I live in a country where progress is frowned upon and more so even criticised by certain politicians (you know who you are).
If ESAT launch a 256k service then I will jump all over it simply because I have been deprived of anything better than 56k for so long. It does not however mean I will be happy paying more than other Europeans/Americans for a service of half the speed. If you're starving you'll eat anything.

vAWOL

quote:

---

Originally posted by vAWOL
Get one of those timers for your plug, ie when certain time comes, power goes.

---

posted by oscarBravo

Hmm.

It's not for everyone, but: I have an old PC (it's a K6-2 450, but a 486 would probably do just as well) running Debian, with the modem attached to it. It's set up as a masquerading firewall so that the other 3 PCs can use it for shared Internet access.

I'd go with the plug timer, will not need driver updates, everything built in. no software conflicts. Small compact. Fits in a large pocket.

phaxx

Sorry for dragging this even further off topic, but just get a better disconnect application, no need for fancy timer plugs and whatnot.

quozl

timer plugs will trash your file systems eventually. Multi-tasking OS's dont like the power cord being removed suddenly.
quozl

oscarBravo

Originally posted by vAWOL
I'd go with the plug timer, will not need driver updates, everything built in. no software conflicts. Small compact. Fits in a large pocket.

's funny, that's why I went for Debian on an old PC: will not need driver updates, everything built in, no software conflicts. Small, compact, fits in the attic.