Sikh Organisations Target Hitman

Mr E

From: Adrenaline Vault

SikhNet has partnered with 35 Sikh organizations around the globe to demand that video game publisher Eidos Interactive recall Hitman 2 because it believes it incites racism and hatred against Sikhs and Dalits by linking them to terrorism. They believe the game glorifies violence against Sikhs within a Gurdwara that looks like the Harmander Sahib, also known as the Golden Temple, while Dalits are portrayed as followers of an evil cult leader, according to a description that was recently removed by Eidos from its web site. Visit their website for more details.

Do you think it will be withdrawn? Do you think it SHOULD be withdrawn?

- Dave.

tman

its only a game ffs

Dooom

no way! might aswell get the mafias and the russians together aswell seeings as it shows them performing terrost actions aswell. its just dumb. its a game. not real. or is it?........

satchmo

Similarly I was just reading a story about GTA3 and how critics are getting all upset about the new Vice City:

"When you kill a prostitute after having sex with her — that's not something we want boys doing."

I had to laugh really, cause I have done that exact same thing in GTA3

Maybe the 'evil cult' thing wasn't such a great idea, but for the love of god.... [see tman's post above]. And besides, Hitman 2 is so much fun! Of course these games shouldn't be pulled. Do you see anyone complaining about the recent Americas Army? Sure, you can kill someone in it by kneecapping them, shooting them in the groin, and then in the throat - but it's okay because they want you to play that game, developed with the specific intent of encouraging young males to join the army and shoot people for real!

Honestly, these people need to find something more productive to do with their time.

Wook

just wondering what the reaction would be if they made a game with terrorists Irish people , that you need to shoot...

Mr E

Bonus points if you hit the knees?

- Dave.

Clintons Cat

In the wake of Sept 11th a number of Siekhs living in the US were attacked,had their property destroyed and in one instance murdered by cretins who thought they were Pro Taliban supporters of Osama Bin Laden.
Under those circumstances it might be understandable that siekh organisations especially those in the United states might be a little sensitive and wish to distance itself from insinuations of links to Global terrorist organisations.Especially when the makers eidios mix real world events and locations with fantasy.
Alternatively maybe to prevent confusion the US government should make siekhs living in the US wear a billboard with the message "I Am Not A Fu<king Terrorist" or put them in special camps for their own protection.

Clintons Cat

signed the petition

I agree with the sentiments of the letter.

Will a fanatical jewish cult be featured in Hitman 3? or how about a vatican city level? St marks square would make a great sniping location.how about a colombine high school level for that close up and personal feel?

If the answer to the above three questions is no then perhaps you will understand why people are upset that hitman 2 features depictions of real world locations and religious atire.

BTW it didnt take long for US retailers to clear the shelves of the game "Sniper POV" last month,though afaik it is still possible for gun "enthusiasts" to buy Sniper Rifles over the counter.

A law enforcement source told CNN that a Bushmaster .223-caliber rifle was found in suspects' car. The Bushmaster .223 rifle is a civilian version of M-16.

Civillian version?

ObeyGiant

I personally don't feel the Sikhs argument holds much water. While it is understandable that they wish to distance themselves from any possible 'terrorist' links, western entertainment, particularly of this genre, thrives on such 'shallow' racial stereotypes.

This is not something new, this was not introduced with the invention of the PlayStation - Hollywood movies have been doing it for years now, often getting bitten in the ass by it (See: Rambo III - oops!). It's not particularly unfortunate, because these are simple stereotypes that are useful for the sake of simplicity and escapism.

While the 'suggestions' listed may be in poor taste (Washington Sniper, Columbine), because they are still so fresh in peoples' minds, it does not change the fact that these would be simple, easy-to-relate scenarios for games.

You either have problems with ALL stereotypes in entertainment, or you shut up. Being offended by stereotypes just because they are closely related to you is a pointless exercise, and exposes you as being just as shallow as the people you condemn.

Clintons Cat

Realy,so its just escapist fun even if it just conforms to and reinforces peoples predjudices?

Not really very escapist is it then?

Still if you want to defend a shallow pointless game on the grounds that stereotypes are simple to understand,i can see where exactly your sympathies lie.

ObeyGiant

Originally posted by Clintons Cat
Realy,so its just escapist fun even if it just conforms to and reinforces peoples predjudices?

Not really very escapist is it then?

Of course it is escapist. This is a game where you play a hitman (surprisingly enough). To most people, this is pretty far removed from their normal life, wouldn't you agree? This is the form of escapism I am talking about, this was obvious. To make this experience all the more believable, the makers of the game decided to follow the standard blueprint created for these types of games/films/books; that is - everyone that isn't 'white', is the enemy.

Seriously - you're not even trying to understand what I'm saying, you're just looking for something to rail against.

Originally posted by Clintons Cat
Still if you want to defend a shallow pointless game on the grounds that stereotypes are simple to understand,i can see where exactly your sympathies lie.

I am not trying to defend this game on this ground. If you'd read my post, you'd see that my last line explains my opinion exactly - you're either against all stereotypes, or you sit down and shut up. Complaining because these stereotypes affect you, or someone close to you, but saying nothing otherwise is a ridiculous practice.

Remember: read post, understand post, reply to post.

Clintons Cat

i understand exactly your point

when you say Hollywood got bit in the ass for using stereotypes
i think i understand what you mean,

This is not something new, this was not introduced with the invention of the PlayStation - Hollywood movies have been doing it for years now, often getting bitten in the ass by it

You mean minorities have criticised hollywood for stereotyping them...Like the Blacks being portrayed as minials such as porters and cleaners and maids in the forties and fifties.or pimps muggers in the sixties and seventies
or hispanics as gang members and maids in the eighties
or south east asians being vc,gooks or pimps in virtually every movie ever made
or rusians as autonomons and mafiosi
or scicillians as mafiosi
or the fact the hollywood machine has legitimized the ethnic cleansing of north american indigenous peoples from the history books.
or all germans in the thirties and forties as nazis
yeah well theres a message there for us all...

Hollywood sucks.

now that i have championed the rights of every minority ever stereotyped by hollywood,am i allowed to criticise the gamemakers for perpetrating a rascist myth?

Thorbar

Originally posted by Jazz
Do you see anyone complaining about the recent Americas Army? Sure, you can kill someone in it by kneecapping them, shooting them in the groin, and then in the throat - but it's okay because they want you to play that game, developed with the specific intent of encouraging young males to join the army and shoot people for real!

Honestly, these people need to find something more productive to do with their time.

Actually yeah there has been a lot of negative back lash in American over that game and a lot of people are trying to get it pulled. Didn't something like this happen in SOF 1? I can remember someone suing the makers because in the New York mission at the start you got docked marks for shooting civilians and later in the arab missions nothing happened if you wasted a few civilians. Personally I believe in free speech and I think anyone who becomes rasist from playing Hitman 2 is about as likely to become a professional killer because they played the game.

Oh and clinton have you played the game yourself?

ObeyGiant

Originally posted by Clintons Cat
now that i have championed the rights of every minority ever stereotyped by hollywood,am i allowed to criticise the gamemakers for perpetrating a rascist myth?

You're still not "understanding exactly" my point - but you're getting closer, and I appreciate it.

I am not saying "Hollywood sucks". I have absolutely no problem with racial stereotypes, because I understand that fiction is quite seperate from 'fact', no matter how large you project it. I also understand that this does not pass over to video games, fiction is not fact, no matter how high a resolution it is set at. Many great films are based around the very things these people are complaining about (See: Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom).

And you are talking as if this 'racism' in movies is 'over' - as if a brief list of some examples is enough to stop it. Sorry, champ, it doesn't. It's a good start though. Even if one was to go over some of the popular videogames recently, one has plenty of examples of games makers using simple, unburdened stereotypes to enhance their game (GTA3, Mafia, Conflict: Desert Storm). Fight one, fight them all. Picking-and-choosing which stereotypes offend you (or even just giving facetious answers to people explaining this) is much more offensive than the stereotypes themselves.

monument

Originally posted by tman
its only a game ffs

Games are dangerous! You can kill (electronic) people in games

Shinji

Can we stop pussyfooting around political correctness here for one god damned minute?

I wouldn't know a fúcking Sikh if I tripped over one in the street. Until now, I thought a Harmander Sahib was something you got as a side-order in an Indian restaurant. I don't think I'm alone in this.

In Hitman 2, there is a building which has clearly been based on the design of another building that actually exists. Some religious nuts are getting their knickers in a twist over this (assuming Sikhs wear knickers - I neither know nor care). It will blow over and everyone will shut up soon.

This is not about racial bloody stereotypes. They created a fictitious cult for their videogame with a passing resemblance to elements of Sikh belief or culture which nobody on the PLANET would have noticed except that these bloody idiots decided to bounce up and down about it and scream blue murder.

And you know what? Christian churches and cults have been the bad guys in games and movies and books, same as Islamic ones (although that's obviously topical since an Islamic group DID just happen to blow up two of the tallest buildings in the world recently, you may remember this - and entertainment media DO thrive on topicality). Irish terrorists have been the bad guys in movies and books, and if there was a game made in which the IRA or whoever were the bad guys, then fair play - I'd be well up for playing it.

Christ almighty, the world has enough problems with racism without paranoid bloody idiots trying to find it where it wasn't intended....

monument

Shinji, its easy to get you mad about something

But your right political correctness is taking over the fúcking world.

ObeyGiant

Originally posted by Shinji
Irish terrorists have been the bad guys in movies and books, and if there was a game made in which the IRA or whoever were the bad guys, then fair play - I'd be well up for playing it.

There was talk (on here, I think) of creating a mod for counter-strike, set in the north, and also of O Connell Street/GPO in Dublin. Both involved the IRA. Both sounded completely badass.

Anyone know what happened to this idea?

Matt Simis

Originally posted by Wook
just wondering what the reaction would be if they made a game with terrorists Irish people , that you need to shoot...

Well, thats actually featured a couple of times in games now.


Strike Commander Expansion pack- the action Flight Sim by Origin. You have to save Ireland in the last mission from "terrorists" who had launched Cruise Missiles against all the major cities. It never really clarified who the terrorists were exactly afaik. The Irish Government needed to hire you (a merc) to save them as they lacked any decent defenses (how true).


Rainbow 6 Expansion Pack (Eagle Watch?) - Tactical FPS.
In one of the missions an IRA splinter cell took over Big Ben\Westminster, you had to go in and annilihilate them. The IRA splinter cell were described as extremely tough fanatics, or words to that effect.


I dont recall anyone complaining about how the Irish were portrayed in either case.




Matt

Hyzepher

Personally I think those who complain about games of this sort are attacking the wrong end of the stick. In the US you can walk into a store and buy a gun almost as easy as going in and buying Hitman 2. Now coming out of Game and using Hitman 2 as a lethal weapon on someone on Grafton St. pails into insignificance when compared with shooting countless people from the back of a van.

Some people are using the game industry, and also the film industry, to try and point the finger at the world's increased violence. Are these games not available worldwide, yet it seems only the same places suffer from driveby shootings and the like.

Instead of worrying about the content of games, which I might add are rated, so and canvas your local politican to clean up the real cause - poverty and discrimination.

Hyzepher

Shinji

Are these games not available worldwide, yet it seems only the same places suffer from driveby shootings and the like.

The Japanese buy and play more games per head of population than any other race in the world, and their crime rates are utterly tiny.

(Interestingly, they also purchase more pornography per head of population than any other nation. Rape and serious sexual crime figures for Japan are miniscule too. Go figure.)

satchmo

Well given the widespread reputation that the Japanese police force has for severe brutality (beatings, torture, intimidation, forced confessions, threatening suspects' families etc... they can hold suspects for 23 days without charging them), it's not a great surprise their crime rate is so low. A confession rate of 95%? A conviction rate of over 99%?!?!?! Sounds more than a little Stalin-esque. Plus, it's the police force themselves that provide these figures - they intentionally understate them, especially in regards to organised crime.

But I digress....

ondafly

Originally posted by Wook
just wondering what the reaction would be if they made a game with terrorists Irish people , that you need to shoot...

already done a few years back - Rainbow 6 - eagle Watch addon pack . IRA take over house of lords, and all inside are hostage. u control 8 anti terriorist dudes, go in and blow them away. No one had a problem with that game !

pertinax

I remember reading about a game where the developers actually had you playing as the IRA. I think they were canadians and it got canned for being to contentious or similar.
You had to escort prisoners through belfast streets or somesuch stuff cant remmber name of game. if it was made it had the ira dropped.

jaggeh

next you know we will have the NPA or "Nali Protection Agency" complaining about unfair treatment and comments expressed in the unreal games

saik

i play lots of computer games, and im not f*cked up or evil at allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll at all.

Shinji

Well given the widespread reputation that the Japanese police force has for severe brutality (beatings, torture, intimidation, forced confessions, threatening suspects' families etc... they can hold suspects for 23 days without charging them), it's not a great surprise their crime rate is so low.

Sorry, which planet is this on?

It'd probably help if you didn't try and learn all your knowledge of the Asia-Pacific region from Hong Kong movies.

satchmo

Why, what planet are you on? Maybe you should just do a search for 'Japan' on Amnesty International's site. Some examples of what I'm talking about: Ill-treatment in custody, Japan's human rights record must be challenged, Prisoners face cruel and humiliating punishment and Abusive Punishments in Japanese Prisons, among others.

It'd probably help if you didn't try and learn all your knowledge of the Asia-Pacific region from computer games.

ObeyGiant

Originally posted by Shinji
Sorry, which planet is this on?

It'd probably help if you didn't try and learn all your knowledge of the Asia-Pacific region from Hong Kong movies.

"... as much as 80% of the child porn available on commercial sites worldwide originates in Japan." - Time Asia

"..By age 12, primary school age or below, 15.6% of women and 5.7% of men experienced at least one of twelve sexual abuse items. This means that one out of 6.4 women and 17.5 men were victimized sexual assault below 12 years of age.." - The Incidence of Sexual Abuse Among Young Children in Japan (Okuyama M., Kitayama A., Uchiyama A., Takase K., Tsunoda Y., Fukushima F., Shimazaki T., Gough D., & Hirayama M.)

Also, the widely-reported rape statistics for Japan ("Women in the US 20 times more likely to be raped than Japanese") are wildly skewed due to the very low instances of rape being reported in Japan. For a full study of this, see "Decisions not to Report Sexual Assaults in Japan".

Now - I don't know about you, but I'd certainly call rape, and sexual assaults on children "serious sexual crimes". Now - out of fantasyland please, someone else wants a go.

(edit) - we are now wildly off-topic (/edit)

Doodee

The SOF thing was gotten around by saying that if a military unit is in hostile lands then even civilians can be considered Hostile. Or something to that description.

Also, on the Game mod boards. there was an idea to create a game set in 1916 during the uprising inwhich u played the "Freedom Fighters"(IRA).

Also, Japan is a nice place, wheither or not it suffers from malpractise by the police is unknown to me, and really, is so far away from me that i couldnt really care, Its my belief that if u are going to commit a crime then u deserve to be punished, maybe if the irish police took the finger out and acted a little more then half of my friends wouldnt be mugged at 4pm with a syringe held to their neck.

Also, not all asia-pacific cities are as bad as yee are trying to portray,
Signapore is considered one of the most perfect countries in the world.


And what ever happened to poetic justice, Im in a Games design course atm, and whatever we do animation, or creativly is considered art.
Fact is that a kid will go out and shoot some1 regardless of wheither he plays computer games or not.
Fact is that if Computer games where the root of all Evil shouldnt the vast majourity of Games players be going out and Killing, I mean look at the popularity of Counter-strike, u didnt see ppl leaving the net-cafes and just shooting up ppl in Temple Bar, or anywhere else.
I believe that the majourity of these ppl who complain but Games tend to be looking for a scapegoat for their sons who have just beaten up some chink in school.
and yes, I said Chink, Yet I have good friends who are from the region, great friends.
Just cause i say it doesnt mean that i mean it.
I mean FFS, the word Fuck originally came from the german word, and was used in WW2 to announce the arrival of the Faucker planes (afaik thats the right name but not sure).


Its all a load of Bollix, and as Rob said, it will blow over soon. I mean no1 even cares anymore that Clinton was getting it off miss Lewinski.

Can we plz finish with all this political **** and get on with the game discussions. there is a politics board u know!!!!!!

Shinji

Why, what planet are you on? Maybe you should just do a search for 'Japan' on Amnesty International's site.

Have done. I've also noted that the vast majority of reliable research available elsewhere tends to dismiss those stories as rumours and, where they are confirmed, as highly unusual and not typical in the slightest. Japan's police force is generally praised as being firm but fair; this is backed up by the personal experiences of a large number of people, both Japanese and foreign nationals, living in Japan and travelling there as visitors, who have had nothing but praise for the police force there - even in instances where technically they were in breach of the law (expired visas etc).

Your suggestion that Japanese crime rates are low because of some all-prevading terror of an abusive police force is utter rubbish. There are certainly states in the asia-pacific region where this is the case, but Japan is most certainly not one of them.


ObeyGiant - yes, it's accepted that Japan has problems with child pornography. This is down to two factors; firstly, the lack of any law against depiction of nudity in children (allegedly because when porn law was being formulated, children were seen as being inherently non-sexual so including them in the bill wasn't considered necessary; besides which, Japanese culture with regards to nudity is entirely different to our own). Secondly, the very low age of consent. That's a key point - much of the material considered child pornography outside of Japan wouldn't raise an eyebrow there because it depicts people over the age of consent. Whether you agree with that or not is up to you, but at the end of the day you are dealing with a very different culture with an entirely different set of values in this respect.

I'm also aware of the other statistics you've raised; believe me, I'm not under any impression that Japan is some kind of idyllic society. However, what you're failing to do is to compare those with instances of crime elsewhere; you'll find that rates for both violent crime and serious sexual crime still compare favourably with elsewhere in the world. At the end of the day, a young woman walking alone through Tokyo or Nagoya in the middle of the night is a lot safer than she would be in just about any city in the USA or Europe; the point I was trying to make is that simple, and pretty much indisputable.

(You're right, this is way off-topic - although not that much, since it started with an argument over violence/racism etc resulting from videogames, which the Japanese are the largest consumers of in the world.)

ObeyGiant

Originally posted by Shinji
Secondly, the very low age of consent.

The age of consent in Japan is (I believe) 13. The study I quoted states: "This means that one out of 6.4 women and 17.5 men were victimized sexual assault below 12 years of age..".

Originally posted by Shinji
However, what you're failing to do is to compare those with instances of crime elsewhere;

This is not something I have failed to do. As a matter of fact, my post specifically addressed this. "Women in the US 20 times more likely to be raped than Japanese". And as I said - the oft-quoted statistics for 'serious sexual crime' in Japan, particularly rape, cannot be trusted, because so often, these crimes go unreported (and more worryingly - they are dismissed, for no apparent reason). Compare this to America, the 'litigation nation', where every uncovered sneeze goes reported.

If one was to tie all this into one of your comments about this simply being a case of culture clash - wouldn't a lot of, for example, America's sexual crimes 'disappear' when painted with the same brush?

mrblue

Getting back to Hitman 2, I don't think it is the racial stereotypes so much as the blatant poor taste of the game that has upset people. I love the game, personally, but I did find myself questioning wether they had pushed it a little too far on one particular level. You have to eliminate two arabic terrorists. You are given detailed pictures of them in the briefing. One looks IDENTICAL to Bin Laden, the other is a dead spit of Saddam Hussain...

I think games producers need to be a little bit more responsible these days as games are sold accross the globe & to racially diverse groups. I think it's time we drop the "Shoot a towel-head, win a car" mentality championed by early shooters around the time of the gulf war. Although I can't see it making people more prejediced, anymore than Hollywood etc as mentioned earlier, it doesn't paint a good picture of the sort of people that play games. It kina makes us all look like red-necked white trash, which I resent.

monument

Ireland has a fecked up police force some how I dont think we can talk about the Japanese police force

Examples...

(All from Today!!!)

"Gardai spun web of deceit, corruption probe is told
A GARDA 'clobbered' an elderly farmer with a metal weight and a colleague ensured the 'weapon' was then hidden, the Morris Tribunal into alleged garda corruption heard yesterday"- http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/

"Seven gardai to face assault charges over May Day clash"
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/

"Seven gardaí face assault charges"
http://www.examiner.ie/

Matt Simis

Originally posted by ondafly
already done a few years back - Rainbow 6 - eagle Watch addon pack . IRA take over house of lords, and all inside are hostage. u control 8 anti terriorist dudes, go in and blow them away. No one had a problem with that game !

So, like, did you Copy and Paste this from when I said it 5 posts ago or what?

Mr E

From todays Blues News:

The Hitman 2 front page now has a link to a pop-up "corporate statement" following up on the recent uproar concerning the use and treatment of Sikh and Dalit imagery in the hired assassination sequel, and The Sikh Coalition Website has likewise been updated to reflect their satisfaction with this outcome. Here is a portion of the statement from Eidos:

"In recognition of the concerns and sensitivities which have been raised, Eidos and the developers, IO Interactive, have responded in both a socially and commercially responsible manner by:

Removing from the Hitman 2 website all relevant images and content; taking steps to amend the game on all existing platforms; and adapting the next edition of the game due out for the GameCube platform.

Eidos and IO Interactive would like to stress that no offence was intended but would like to apologise to the Sikh community and other persons for any offence taken."

- Dave.