Lets Fight the Fight.

dathi1

Every No-side person should get out to vote No, and vote early, in
tomorrow's referendum, and then spend the rest of the day trying to get
others to do the same.

Every No-side organisation should try to get their No-voters and Undecideds
to turn out.

The Irish people must not show Europe that we really didn't know our own
minds last year in Nice One. We must show them that the Irish people can't
be totally railroaded by an untrustworthy Government, running a misleading
and smear-oriented campaign.

What message would it send to Europe if such a Government as this one
succeeded in overturning the will of the people with such a campaign?
Picture Bertie Ahern, after all his deceptions, going to Copenhagen to a
hero's welcome after overturning last year's Irish democratic decision, to
gift the building of a Federal Europe to the Big Powers!

So keep up the canvassing. Keep up the leafletting. And turn out
tomorrow,along with everyone you can influence among your friends and
neighbours, to vote No - - for Ireland's sake and for Europe's.

Remember that what we are voting on tomorrow is to change the Constitution
to abolish the national veto in 35 different areas, some hugely important -
and hand over decision-making in those areas to the EU.

We are not voting on EU enlargement, which will go ahead anyway,
irrespective of how we vote. We are not voting on jobs and growth. We are
voting on whether or not to give more power to the EU, which is
increasingly under the dominance of the Big States, in particular Germany
and France.

The consequence of doing that would be less democracy and independence in
Ireland,and less control by the Irish people over their own lives and their
own future.

That is why a No vote tomorrow is the best vote for ourselves and our
children's sakes.

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
The Irish people must not show Europe that we really didn't know our own minds last year in Nice One. We must show them that the Irish people can't
be totally railroaded by an untrustworthy Government, running a misleading and smear-oriented campaign.

Ok - which is it to be? We didnt know our own minds, or we were railroaded by our government?

The first would kinda prove that re-running the referendum in such a short timeframe was a correct and valid decision, as the expressed wishes of the people changed.

The second is a foundless accusation - yuet more empty twaddle that has come to proliferate both sides of this topic, as fanatics get more caught up in trying to give people a reason to vote on their side, rather than giving people relevant points of view to help them decide for themselves.

Oh - and complain about "railroading" whilst issuing this side-issue propaganda at the same time.

What message would it send to Europe if such a Government as this one succeeded in overturning the will of the people with such a campaign?

Yet again - you havent offered (and cannot offer) a shred of proof to show that the number of voters who change their vote from no to yes will be the cause of a Yes result, should such a thing happen.

Which means that all you have are empty allegations.

Which would mean that there is SFA message being sent, other than perhaps that the Irish government takes their commitment to the EU seriously enough to risk political suicide by holding a re-run.

And as I've pointed out before, there is nothing preventing anyone from campaigning to have laws introduced to prevent this situation from re-occurring.

Picture Bertie Ahern, after all his deceptions, going to

Remember that what we are voting on tomorrow is to change the Constitution to abolish the national veto in 35 different areas, some hugely important - and hand over decision-making in those areas to the EU.

And also remember that in our entire membership of the EEC/EC/EU, we have had far more agreements/deals/laws that we were in favour of being vetoed by another nation than we have had to use our veto on ourselves.

In fact, when you look at it in that perspective, historical evidence would tend to imply that loss of veto is actually more likely to be to our net benefit.

Which has been pointed out before.....

We are not voting on EU enlargement, which will go ahead anyway, irrespective of how we vote.

By this logic, European Unification will continue as well, regardless of how we vote, so dont vote No if you're against a Federal Europe.

Enlargement of a comipletely different form can happen, for 1/2 of the 10 nations who wish to join. The remaining 5 (however we pick them) will simply have to wait until we ratify other treaties to let them in. Which is not inevitable, because they are treaties which will have to be ratified, which may not happen.

I just love the way that the No camp keep insisting that "Enlargement will happen regardless" but have singularly failed to explain how all 10 applicant nations will get membership, what the modified timeframe will be, and how all this will come about.

Maybe because, after all, that type of enlargement wouldnt be possible without Nice or some replacement treaty, and that would involve losing the empty "enlargement is irrelevant" catchphrase.

We are not voting on jobs and growth. We are voting on whether or not to give more power to the EU, which is increasingly under the dominance of the Big States, in particular Germany and France.

Except that by accepting Nice, and its proposed enlargement of the Union, these nations (France & Germany) would end up with a smaller percentage of overall power that they have at the moment, and would also have lost their vetos, making them more vulnerable.

Again - misconstruing the facts there D1. France and Germany will remain as the most influential nations, and perhaps have more influence relative to any other single nation in the restructure, but in teh overall picture they end up with less power, not more, meaning that it is less likely that they will dominate anyone.

I'm not extolling a Yes or a No vote. I'm suggesting that people look at the issues. Forget who presented them. Forget the misleading drivel. Forget the muppets who have rammed propaganda from both sides down your throats for the last few months.

Take what you have learned from various sources over the past few months, and what you feel is relevant to Nice. Then decide - Yes, No, Still Dont Know, Ambivalent, or whatever.

Then go vote, spoil a vote, or choose not to vote.

Its your choice. You make it.

Dont be railroaded by anyone, and dont feel you have to explain your voting choice to anyone.

jc

dathi1

John,
You're safe in Switzerland...the outcome wont affect you. On a yes we will have to put up with the consequences whilst you and co will be in that "nuetral country" or is thre such a thing

mike65

I should have rasied this last night, any maybe someone has elsewhere, but should'nt boards.ie have put a ban on Nice talk today, give us all a rest before the PM on Sunday. i.e no more being shouted at by Dathi1 and co.

Mike.

pickarooney

Didn't Switzerland forego neutrality and join the UN a couple of months ago?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by dathi1
John,
You're safe in Switzerland...the outcome wont affect you. On a yes we will have to put up with the consequences whilst you and co will be in that "nuetral country" or is thre such a thing

What a stunningly incisive refutation.
:rolleyes:

No wonder the No side is losing.

Cork

The referendum campaign by the Yes-side has been a gigantic con trick. They say Nice is about jobs and growth - when Nice will not create a single job

They say it is about EU enlargement, when the aspects of Nice that are relevant to enlargement will be put into the 10 Accession Treaties anyway, after the conclusion of the negotiations on these are con as they must be put into these Treaties evenb with Nice.

But if Ireland votes Yes to Nice, we will have agreed to all the other things in Nice - especially the two-tier EU provisions and giving the EU Commission and its President much of the character of an EU Government and Prime Minister, something that has hardly been mentioned in this referendum - while thinking all the while that we were voting on something else! It will be too late to have regrets afterwards.

Lets hope that common sense will prevail aganist this shambles of a treaty.

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
John,
You're safe in Switzerland...the outcome wont affect you. On a yes we will have to put up with the consequences whilst you and co will be in that "nuetral country" or is thre such a thing

Well thank you for that completely ignorant remark.

Rather than debate the point, you prefer to cast aspersions on me for where I happening to be living at the moment.

Perhaps you'd care to show the relevance of this by explaining how this wont affect me when I return to live in Ireland in the near future. Or maybe just admit that you're trying to be glib and failing miserably.

Also, next time you post an image rather than quoting the text on this forum, I will delete the post summarily. Stop wasting other people's bandwidth.

jc

p.s. Switzerland was, and is, a neutral nation - at least in the military sense. Once they joined the UN, they had a second referendum about peacekeeping missions, and the result is that they have allowed themselves to partake in the logistics and mission support of UN-sanctioned peace-keeping missions.

p.p.s. Having said that, many Swiss still see joining the UN as the loss of true neutrality.

Cork

Originally posted by Boston


Do the EU even know why we said no? One RTE report shortly after the no vote put the blame on the telling off Charlie received from the EU. Do people swallow this bull?

I think spin does indeed work. People voted on this treaty already. Bertie & Charlie Mc Creevey are not the most popular. But, with a little spin - anything is possible.

Bertie will be Taoiseach years. Who gives a hoot about openion polls.


There is nothing in this treaty for Ireland or the applicant countries.

It will be interesting - If people swallow their democratic vote previosly cast and vote this shambles of a treaty into our constitution.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
If people swallow their democratic vote previosly cast and vote this shambles of a treaty into our constitution.

For the first person who can tell me how many times Cork has used the term "shambles of a treaty" in Politics threads concerning the second Nice referendum, I will buy a pint of their choice, next time I'm in Ireland.

jc - Hey - if these guys dont care about anything relevant to the issue, why should I