Prime Time Special last night on RTE1

Lucutus

Anyone else see this programme?

Here is the link from RTE Online, if you haven't seen the programme, I recommend you watch it before posting.


RTE News piece from this morning on the subject...here
...and also of interest...here.

Thoughts, comments and opinions?

Luc

Xterminator

I watched it with a feeling of great disgust.

The position of the cardinal is untenable at this point.

Can you imagine if this happened in say the education system?

A teacher in 1 school is accused of abusing children.
The headmaster then gets the teacher transferred to different school etc, and assures the parents its being dealt with and says 'leave it to me'.
The teacher then goes on to abuse in the next school and the 'buck' or pedeophile (spelling ?) is then transfered another school.
All the time the Guards were being kept in the dark, and if they do get involved, the headmasters refuse to co-operate with the guards or only coperate as much as they deem nessacary.

There would be hundreds of guards staging dawn raids and not only would the offenders be put away, but there accomplies too.

I know the metaphor only goes so far, but i cant undersatand why the priests are not being charged, and those who obstructed justice are not being charged etc etc.

I guess to some extent we are still being ruled from Rome.

X

Typedef

That program was one of the most stunning pieces of television I have seen in quite some time.

The Cardinal was complicit in the abuse of children, the hirearchy of the Catholic Church knew full well about the rampant abuse of hundredes of children and kept it secret.

That is a crime and in Irish society no one is above the law. Clearly what the Catholic Hirearchy has done amounts to a crime, by keeping this paedophilia secret the same hirearchy has allowed many, many people to be abused when said abuse could have been prevented.

It is a travesty that the same law Joe Soap Paddy has to live under can be fobbed off with 'internal enquiries' within the Catholic Church.

The State in my opinion should interviene now, and require the Catholic Church to hand over any and all pertinent material pertaining to these allegations and from there charges should be brought against the priests in question and the Bishops who knowingly moved priests from one parish to another time after time and in case after case, the same Bishops who knowingly covered up the acts of the errant clerics and the same Bishops who lied to the Garda about it.

Again why should the clergy be above the law? What the bloody hell is wrong with this country?

mike65

The All-Priests Show was creepy enough a concept in a neutral
environment but juxtaposted with the victims recollections, the footage just became sickening.

Broadly there were no shocks revelations though, I think must of us have long since realised the depth of the scandal, a scandal that was inevitable simply because the Catholic Church is a very
(self)important club, if one of the members is "attacked" others come to defend the member and almost no-one will break ranks, as they are either scared or complicit or are seeking to protect thier own power and ambitions.

The Catholic Church is an empire within a state. The state has to take back power. I see no grounds for not arresting all those named in the programme as witnesses have spoken publicly. While others can be questioned on being accsessories after the fact.

One chap the father of Mervyn Rundel summed it when he wondered why nothing was done about the abuser Fr Naughton,
"did they take us for fools....are we not part of the same society?"

There is no reason to belive such abuse is'nt on-going and won't end. The very basis on which the priesthood is constituted has to change.

I'm not a Catholic or any sort of beliver, so I'm a cynic about
such institutions ability to reform. This internal audit by Gillian Hussey is meaningless They will have to be reformed.

Mike.

pro_gnostic_8

The most shocking television I've seen in a long time.....................like everyone else I'm so angry.

Obviously, the bishops are as culpable as the abusing priests for the cover-up. Seems to me the Hierarchy were more concerned with protecting the paedophiles within their ranks than protecting children.

What I'm wondering, tho', is can Connel be prosecuted for his "I knew nothing" charade? Proof of malicious intent will be hard to substantiate. Great, the church is facing subsatntial civil compensation awards but I would also like to see some criminal (jail-time) convictions arising out of this .

Xterminator

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8


What I'm wondering, tho', is can Connel be prosecuted for his "I knew nothing" charade? Proof of malicious intent will be hard to substantiate. Great, the church is facing subsatntial civil compensation awards but I would also like to see some criminal (jail-time) convictions arising out of this .

Surely something like Reckless Endangerment, or similar concept in irish law would be very easy to prove, if the will was there on behalf of the establishment?

X

Typedef

What worries me is that people in Irish society are more then quite prepaired to look the other way on this one.

Take this thread for example, not too many respondants, why? Perhaps because people would just rather this whole business was swept under the carpet. The Minister for Justice is a great example of this attitude in Iirish society that somehow the clerics deserve special treatment, Mr McDowell has stated he wants to 'reflect' before making any kind of decision on what effectively amounts to doing his job. 'Reflect'? I'm sorry did I miss a meeting, what the hell does he need to reflect on, the legions of devout Catholics who jump as they are told to by the Bishops when it comes time to elect pulpit politicians perhaps?

Why should the Church be allowed to carry out 'internal investigation', what about the authority of the State? Would SIPTU or ASTI be allowed to carry out 'internal investigation' and if not then why in the hell should the clergy be above civil law?

Maybe the Minister for Justice would like to explain that one.

mike65

Take this thread for example, not too many respondants, why? Perhaps because people would just rather this whole business was swept under the carpet.

I was expecting this to take off, my explanation is that if this were moved to politics it would, humanities is only just ticking over.

Just a thought.

Mike.

seamus

Originally posted by Typedef
What worries me is that people in Irish society are more then quite prepaired to look the other way on this one.

I completely disagree. Maybe 20/30 years ago, but not anymore. People are calling for blood on this one, all the papers are reporting on it, every day, and because of where I work, I can tell you that many devout Catholics are also calling for the Cardinal's head.

Catholicism is dying in Ireland. Most young people nowadays, especially men, don't go to mass, and have absolutely no interest in the chruch. Even in the older generations, it's mostly the women who are going to mass, and even many of them are becoming disillusioned. It's the old paradox - Women keep the church going, but the church keeps them down. Weren't results produced that showed Catholicism in Ireland was down to 60-odd percent? And how many of them are practising.

No, the Cardinal has no protection on this one. He will be brought to book quite soon, or there will be revolt.

neuro-praxis

I wouldn't say there are too many replies to this thread because there isn't really anything we can say, except to have a church bashing session.

The Catholic church is not a "secret club" with old loyalties or anything like it; the problem lies with their canon law which the church states to be above the law of the land. A canon law expert (a priest) was on the radio the other morning attempting to claim that the bible states that canon law is above the national law, but I know that this is not the case. The bible specifically says that we should obey the laws of the land at all times, unless we feel as individuals (not as institutions, mind) that the laws of the land are morally wrong or grossly unreasonable. So the bible does not give them any authority in this issue. You cannot say that if the law states that paedophiles (regardless of their affiliations with institutions of any kind) should be convicted, that this is an immoral law. It is absolutely necessary that this be the case.

However, there was another chap on the radio (also a priest) who stated quite frankly that the church and Cardinal O'Connell have brought all of this upon themselves and that they need to fully co-operate with the national authorities and have the perpetrators of these crimes taken to trial. They need to own up, give up their positions if necessary, give over all relevant information, apologise and attempt to make amends.

I feel sorry for the truly honest, good and believing Catholics who have to watch the deterioration of their church. It must be awful to lose faith in your leaders like this.

Typedef

Well I have Typedef law, that says I'm the most important person in the world, fortunately for everyone else that is just my problem.
So why in the hell should this State just throw up it's hands and say, "oh well that's ok everyone in this State is governed by Irish law, except for the clerics..... the clerics can make up their own law... cannon law.... sure why not?".

Forgive me if I don't give a rats about cannon law, the Church may regard Cannon law a sacrosanct (no pun) however in reality that doesn't matter a damn, because the Church is not the supreme exponent of law in Ireland, the State is and if the Church or any other person or group doesn't like it and moreover flouts the State's law, those groups/people get sanctioned by the State.

That is what we tertly call the judicial system.

However, there was another chap on the radio (also a priest) who stated quite frankly that the church and Cardinal O'Connell have brought all of this upon themselves and that they need to fully co-operate with the national authorities and have the perpetrators of these crimes taken to trial.

No sorry there is no 'option' where the Church gets to flout the authority of the State, the Cardinal has no choice but to cooperate with the coming Garda investigation, because if he doesn't he should be imprisoned. Just because he is a Cardinal does not put him above the law I, have to abide by. The Cardinal has claimed he is a man like any other, I agree, and therefore just like any other man, he should be persued expiditously.

But wait I forgot this is Catholic Ireland, didn't you know the law only applied to the prolateriate, the politicians and priests don't have to abide by the law I do, no, not in Catholic Ireland. Where do people think the phrase "Home rule is Rome rule" comes from? Hmm perhaps it comes from the fact that the clerics think themselves, act as if they were and get treated as if they were above the law of the land.

Someone prove me wrong though, from where I sit, it looks like tens of paedophiles in this country have been given preferential treatment by viture of the fact they are clerics. I'm still waiting for the State's law to be enforced, because if it was me, or some other 'regular' person who had broken the law in this way, I or they would already be in MountJoy prision.

seamus

Originally posted by Typedef
................, the Cardinal has no choice but to cooperate with the coming Garda investigation, because if he doesn't he should be imprisoned. Just because he is a Cardinal does not put him above the law I, have to abide by. The Cardinal has claimed he is a man like any other, I agree, and therefore just like any other man, he should be persued expiditously.

But wait I forgot this is Catholic Ireland, don't you know the law only applied to the prolateriate, the politicians and priests don't have to abide by the law I do, no, not in Catholic Ireland. Where do people think the phrase "Home rule is Rome rule" comes from? Hmm perhaps it comes from the fact that the clerics think themselves, act as if they were and get treated as if they were above the law of the land.

Someone prove me wrong though, from where I sit, it looks like tens of paedophiles in this country have been given preferential treatment by viture of the fact they are clerics. I'm still waiting for the State's law to be enforced, because if it was me, or some other 'regular' person who had broken the law in this way, I'd already be in MountJoy prision.

This time I completely agree. Canon law is about as binding as the rules of the playground. I declare seamus law, where all national laws are immoral, and I can kill anyone who gets in my way. Oh no, I could probably be jailed just for saying that (tantamount to rebellion). The main problem is the the Vatican has nothing to do with religion. It is a state, and the Pope is the head of that state. It's all politics. If countries ignore canon law, the vatican is up in arms. But why shouldn't they? I can't choose to obey Ireland's laws while I'm the Vatican, so why can clerics choose the Vatican's laws while in Ireland? It makes no sense. As I said , it's all politics. The last abortion referendum....WTF was that about? People in the Greater Dublin area blatantly didn't want it, and it was only the major Catholic areas which voted heavily in favour of it. Yet Bertie acted as if it was a 'loss'. Probably only because the politicians were losing favour with the clerics........

But now the politicians would too afraid to ignore the people IMO. If the Cardinal isn't imprisoned/severely punished, most of today's government won't see the inside of Leinster House again, and they know it. While I still beleive that the Church's supreme protection in this state is all but gone, I do agree with your statement that clerics are being given preferential treatment by the delays in their conviction/investigation.

neuro-praxis

Nobody disagrees with you Typedef. It's not good for you to be so emotive!

Typedef

It is honest though.

nick_riviera

I don't think people are looking the other way on this,quite the opposite in fact.People seem to be ringing in all the radio shows every day with new stories.A woman who had been abused was on Liveline today,another shocking tale.This story isn't going away any time soon.Catholics are up in arms over this and there is no place to hide for the bishops,certainly not behind clericalism.

The only hope now is for the Catholic Church to surrender all relevant documents,or else have them seized by the Gardai.Justice must be done for every single victim,regardless of who ends up behind bars.Then Catholic priests and lay people must unite to rid this country of the curse of clericalism,over the heads of the bishops if needs be.I'm a Catholic by the way,and certainly no church basher,I feel we must put our faith in God solely and not the hierarchy.Sink or swim time for the Catholic Church in Ireland

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Typedef
everyone in this State is governed by Irish law, except for the clerics..... the clerics can make up their own law... cannon law.... sure why not?".

Forgive me if I don't give a rats about cannon law, the Church may regard Cannon law a sacrosanct

I agree, Canon Law should be an irrelevance in the modern Irish State.

Can someone tell me -- I honestly don't know -- does Canon Law supersede Irish Civil and Criminal Law in the courtroom? Like, does Canon Law excuse or exhonerate some bishop from disclosing or reporting a crime to the Gardai or to the courts? Can a cleric refuse (under Canon Law) to give evidence to a civil court?

mike65

The law of the land overules "canon law" (Leinster House rules okay!), the reason that canon law gets invoked as if it were relevant is because the state has traditionally run scared of the Catholic Church so it seems like its stronger than state laws we all live under. The church uses it a blocking device.

Another good reason for the civil government to start getting tough with the heirachy.

Mike.

Typedef

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Can a cleric refuse (under Canon Law) to give evidence to a civil court?

Constitutionally and legally no. Look at the facts though, the Minister for Justice is 'reflecting' on whether or not to enforce the law of the land, simply because the criminals in question are clerics. That speaks volumes.

To my mind there are three tiers of law in Ireland.
Prolateriate law - for Joe Soap.
Politician law - Meaning you might have to sit in a tribunal when you should be playing golf and taking backhanders.
Cannon law - Meaning not only do you not have to cooperate with civil law, but the public has to swallow 'internal church investigation' in loco parentis for civil law, which everyone else has to abide by.

If some random farmer, or fella from Tallaght was caught concealing hundreds of cases of abuse in a school for example, would an internal school investigation be acceptable to the public? Of course not, so why should the citizens of Ireland have to live with a different set of rules for clerics, then for ordinary citizens?

The investigation with former Justice Hussey is a farce and a full criminal investigation must happen now or else the authority of the State and civil law mean nothing.
I won't hold my breath.

neuro-praxis

I feel the need to make this point. It's aimed specifically at Typedef.

The government are not afraid of the Catholic church clerics. They have no reason to be. The church have got neither wealth nor power in this country. Our own Bertie has been living in sin for years (decidedly un-Catholic). However, they still have a fair few supporters, which means, influence.

The government are stalling because they are aware that the Catholics in this country are worth a vote each. The government may be trying to be sensitive to those believers (in a warped kind of way).

However, there should be little or no "reflecting" involved if you ask me; the time for being sensitive to the feelings of believers is not right now. It is time for the church and state to unite in having these crimes dealt with, all of them, once and for all.

But remember; it wasn't only the church that kept stchum. The church are scapegoats for every Irish parent that was aware of what was happening to their child.

Do you realise that children went to parents and relatives about the abuse and were told by the relatives to not speak of it again?

It isn't just the church that is to blame; as a society as a whole there are many many lay people that need to take responsibility for their silence through the years. Fear may be a reason for not saying anything, but it sure as hell isn't an excuse.

sceptre

Originally posted by Typedef
The investigation with former Justice Hussey is a farce and a full criminal investigation must happen now or else the authority of the State and civil law mean nothing.

I agree 100% with that.

The Minister for Justice has firm grounds for believing that the laws of the land were substantially broken by a large number of people.

Based on that, the correct course of action would be to call in the Special Branch, sub poena every record the church has in parishes/dioceses believed to be the scenes of these crimes and go through the records manually in order that justice be done.

What has been done is that the church can choose to send whomever it wants to the Hussey investigation, answering the questions they wish to answer and supplying the records they wish to supply.

It's a farce plain and simple.

Biffa Bacon

Apparently now legal experts are saying that Cardinal Connell and the rest did not break the law in not disclosing the abuse to the police as there was no legal requirement for them to do so. Therefore I don’t see the need for the State to set up a tribunal of investigation into the actions of the Hierarchy in this matter, nor is there a need for the gardaí to get involved. It’s up to the church authorities to voluntarily answer any questions that have arisen from the latest revelations.

In my opinion, the central question that Cardinal Connell needs to answer is why did he take the actions he did when confronted with allegations of child abuse? Was it because he was a bit innocent and naïve about the reality of child abuse, or was it because he didn’t want to bring scandal on the Church? If Canon Law required him to act as he did, then does Canon Law need to be changed?

Shinji

Apparently now legal experts are saying that Cardinal Connell and the rest did not break the law in not disclosing the abuse to the police as there was no legal requirement for them to do so.

It is not illegal not to come forward with evidence about a crime.

However, to deliberately and knowingly cover up the evidence of a crime is perverting the course of justice, and makes you an accessory after the fact; and to allow that crime (in this instance, paedophilia) to continue in a new setting counts as reckless endangerment of the children in the care of the man you KNOW to be a paedophile, and probably makes you an accessory before the fact.

There is no need for time to reflect. Either the church hands over every document they have relating to this right now and offers its full co-operation to the state on this matter - or they get treated like any other organisation would, with subpoenas and raids by the Gardai.

The catholic church hierarchy is very good at making itself look like a victim of all this - most of the people involved are very old, and they play the naievety card exceptionally well. Bollocks to that. They knew what they were doing, and they had the arrogance to think that they could get away with it forever. It's time for them to be punished, and for the institutions which they thought could protect them to be pulled down so that this may never happen again.

Like Neuro_Praxis, I do feel for truly devout Catholics in this situation - but then again, if they must lose their leaders over this, is that such a bad thing given that their leadership was rotten to the core in the first place?

mike65

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Apparently now legal experts are saying that Cardinal Connell and the rest did not break the law in not disclosing the abuse to the police as there was no legal requirement for them to do so. Therefore I don’t see the need for the State to set up a tribunal of investigation into the actions of the Hierarchy in this matter, nor is there a need for the gardaí to get involved. It’s up to the church authorities to voluntarily answer any questions that have arisen from the latest revelations.

If Canon Law required him to act as he did, then does Canon Law need to be changed?

Cough!

Biffa what planet are you on?, Canon law means nothing in the real world so it should'nt even get a mention here or anywhere. The idea of the Catholic Church volunteering information is laughable, its going to have to be dragged out of the heirachy and others under threat of legal action or by legal action even if that requires a change in the law.

Mike.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Shinji
However, to deliberately and knowingly cover up the evidence of a crime is perverting the course of justice, and makes you an accessory after the fact...

But that's not what happened here.

...and to allow that crime (in this instance, paedophilia) to continue in a new setting counts as reckless endangerment of the children in the care of the man you KNOW to be a paedophile, and probably makes you an accessory before the fact.

Not under Irish law AFAIK.

There is no need for time to reflect. Either the church hands over every document they have relating to this right now and offers its full co-operation to the state on this matter - or they get treated like any other organisation would, with subpoenas and raids by the Gardai.

And charge them with what exactly?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by mike65
Biffa what planet are you on?, Canon law means nothing in the real world so it should'nt even get a mention here or anywhere.

It matters to the Catholic hierarchy as it informs their response to allegations of child abuse. Cardinal Connell might well have felt he was simply carrying out his obligations under canon law. Obviously if these entails that allegations of child abuse are to be swept under the carpet, then canon law needs to be changed.

The idea of the Catholic Church volunteering information is laughable, its going to have to be dragged out of the heirachy and others under threat of legal action or by legal action even if that requires a change in the law.

Why should the government force the Catholic Church to hand over its files if it hasn't broken any laws in its handling of these cases?

mike65

Biffa if I'm reading you wrong please say so, but your posts on this issue suggest a rather old-fashioned notion of clergy being beyond the law of the land and its own constituency i.e. its flock. They are not infalible, far from it.

I hope I'm wrong.

Mike.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by mike65
Biffa if I'm reading you wrong please say so, but your posts on this issue suggest a rather old-fashioned notion of clergy being beyond the law of the land and its own constituency i.e. its flock. They are not infalible, far from it.

I hope I'm wrong.

Mike.

Yes you are wrong. If they broke the law then they should be prosecuted. But as far as I can make out they have broken no law.

Shinji

But that's not what happened here.

Yes it is. In fact, in the parlance of the church itself, this is the difference between a sin of omission and a sin of comission - the law doesn't punish for the former (failing to report something), but it does punish for the latter (taking action deliberately designed to protect someone guilty of a crime from prosecution or discovery - for example, moving them to a new parish when the heat is turned up in the old one).

As to the second point, I'm pretty sure reckless endangerment does exist under Irish law. I do confess that since moving to the UK I've occasionally confused UK and Irish law in places, but I'd be very surprised indeed if the concept of reckless endangerment - being a very basic tenet of civil liability law - doesn't exist in Ireland.

You also don't seem to understand the concept of a subpoena - I'm not proposing arrests and charges (YET), I'm proposing that if the catholic church is not seen to be co-operating in the enquiry into this in the fullest manner possible, then they should be made to co-operate by the taking of any documents etc pertaining to this - willingly, or unwillingly.

Biffa Bacon

Yes it is. In fact, in the parlance of the church itself, this is the difference between a sin of omission and a sin of comission - the law doesn't punish for the former (failing to report something), but it does punish for the latter (taking action deliberately designed to protect someone guilty of a crime from prosecution or discovery - for example, moving them to a new parish when the heat is turned up in the old one).

If that’s true I still think it’s highly arguable that what the Church authorities did served either in intent or effect to cover up a crime. Although if your interpretation of the legal situation is correct then they should certainly be prosecuted. I’m only arguing from a legalistic standpoint here.

You also don't seem to understand the concept of a subpoena - I'm not proposing arrests and charges (YET), I'm proposing that if the catholic church is not seen to be co-operating in the enquiry into this in the fullest manner possible, then they should be made to co-operate by the taking of any documents etc pertaining to this - willingly, or unwillingly.

Unless I’m very much mistaken there hasn’t actually been a public enquiry set up yet. Nor should there be, IMO. Either laws were broken, in which case there should be a criminal investigation, or there weren’t, in which case the State has no business prying into Church records.

Shinji

Either laws were broken, in which case there should be a criminal investigation, or there weren’t, in which case the State has no business prying into Church records.

Er, the whole point of a public inquiry, if one were to take place, would be to establish WHETHER any laws were broken.

What do you think such things exist for? Idle curiosity on the part of some underworked barristers?

Typedef

See what I'm not understanding here is why in order to 'evaluate/reflect' on whether a law was broken for the Clerics in Ireland there is 'maybe' going to be a public enquirey, but for Joe Soap Typedef a Garda looks at the case and makes a decision to prosecute me or no.

Again why should the clergy, by virute of the fact they are clerics, be above the law I must respect under threat of sanction and expediant prosecution if I Typedef do not respect that law? Why is that?
I'll tell you why, it's because the pulpit politicians in this country are so petrafied of loosing out on the Catholic vote that at any given opportunity said politicians will give the clergy leeway, where citizen x would normally come under the full wrath and scrutiny of the civil system, and that in my view fundamentally undermines the authority of the State and the notion of one law for all citizens and people within the Irish State.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Shinji
Er, the whole point of a public inquiry, if one were to take place, would be to establish WHETHER any laws were broken.
Isn't that the job of the guards?

What do you think such things exist for? Idle curiosity on the part of some underworked barristers?

They exist so that the truth can be exposed in a public manner. However, I only believe that tribunals are justified when they probe the actions of public institutions, such as the BTSB or the Gardaí, but not a private institution such as the Catholic Church.

pro_gnostic_8

There seems to me to be a profound lack of understanding or appreciation by some of those in positions of influence about the damage caused to the victims of clerical child abuse.

In March the paedophile James Kelly (aka Br. Ambrose) pleaded guilty to 77 charges of sexual assault and was sentenced by Judge Patrick Murphy to 5 years with the last four years suspended. Yesterday, at a sitting of the Court of Criminal Appeal in Cork, the DPP attempted to have this sentence increased. However, Mr Justice Geoghegan disallowed the appeal, ruling that the original sentence (in effect one year) was "not unduly lenient".

In 1999, Kelly was sentenced on separate charges to 18 consecutive two-year sentences but was released after 18 months.

With outcomes such as this, and with such a judiciary mind-set displayed yesterday by Justice Geoghegan the crime of clerical child abuse will never be seriously addressed in this country IMHO.