time to give the establishment a bloody nose?

Cork

With IBEC stating yesterday that workers wages should rise by less than the rate of inflation next year.

With FF's health cutbacks.

With the economy going down the tubes.

Is it time to give the establishment a bloody nose?

seamus

Wow, that's the last thing I exepcted to hear from you

No, we need a re-election within the year. Or riots. Either way we'll achieve the same

mayhem#

Originally posted by Cork
Is it time to give the establishment a bloody nose?

No, it's time to wake up and smell the ****in' coffee....

DMC

We've been asked to vote on a treaty, and thats what I'm voting on and not because I feel the need to take this vote and protest against the govt.

If I vote yes, I will be for the treaty. If I vote no, its means I'm against the treaty, and not because the govt is looking for a yes vote that I'll vote against it. I'll vote on its merits.

PH01

...And then what?

Das Fuhrer Justin Barrett

Typedef

Two things PH01.

You mean "Der" Fuhrer and it is generally accepted that when one side starts comparing the other side to Nazis in a debate, the side that did so is already deemed to have lost, that is called Goodwin's law

Meh

Originally posted by PH01
...And then what?

Das Fuhrer Justin Barrett

Do you really think you're going to convince people to vote Yes using specious comparisons like that? I think posts like that do more harm than good to the Yes vote...

Anyway, it would be der Führer Justin Barrett...

swiss

Must bookmark that URL, kewl.

Typedef and meh have a point PH01, it is best not to have glib remarks like that, at least not without explaining why you think the No campaign is steeped in Nazism.

As has been stated many times, it is a mistake to think that because some people may agree with Barrett on an issue like Nice, it means that they subscribe to his philosophies.

Verstehen Sie?

PH01

Originally posted by Meh
Do you really think you're going to convince people to vote Yes using specious comparisons like that? I think posts like that do more harm than good to the Yes vote...

Anyway, it would be der Führer Justin Barrett...

I take it all back.

I didn't do German in school so if ye say Der instead of Das then it must be the case. Unles that is there is a German scholar out there?

gandalf

"Der" is the male format
"Das" is the neutral format (which looking at Mr. Barrett may be true )
"Die" is the female format.

Did German many many years ago in my youth (and wasn't that good at it)

Back on-topic. Firstly Cork the reasons to vote no should be because you have read the treaty and arguements for and against and come to the conclusion that it is a bad thing for Ireland. Not oh lets teach Bertie and his mates a lesson.

I have read the treaty, compared it with the areas its replacing in the Treaty of Europe and it is imho a step backwards for Ireland and for Europe.

PH01 please stop with this mindless "Justin Barret is a nazi" crap its getting boring. I could just as easily post "Bertie is a criminal" because he associated with dodgy brown envelope seeking politicans.

Personally I find it quite disturbing that I am on the same side as Youth Defense, & The shinners but I think it shows that there is quite a diverse section of irish society against this treaty.

Gandalf.

DMC

Originally posted by gandalf
Personally I find it quite disturbing that I am on the same side as Youth Defense, & The shinners but I think it shows that there is quite a diverse section of irish society against this treaty.

Its the same for the yes side. IBEC and the unions, FF, Lab and FG all on the same page! That's equally disturbing!

But what ever way the groupings of the campaign on either side are organised, it shouldn't cloud your judgement on the treaty, or give you a case of the shivers. That's why I say the Referendum Commission is doing a top notch job.

PH01

Originally posted by gandalf
"Der" is the male format
"Das" is the neutral format (which looking at Mr. Barrett may be true )
"Die" is the female format.

I'm impressed. So Das Furher isn't entirely incorrect then?

Did German many many years ago in my youth (and wasn't that good at it)

And in what youth organisation was this?

Back on-topic. Firstly Cork the reasons to vote no should be because you have read the treaty and arguements for and against and come to the conclusion that it is a bad thing for Ireland. Not oh lets teach Bertie and his mates a lesson.

I agree - the Treaty should be judged on it's merits

I have read the treaty, compared it with the areas its replacing in the Treaty of Europe and it is imho a step backwards for Ireland and for Europe.

Have to disagree with you there. This Treaty is a very progressive one which will be great for Ireland and Europe. It will, if it is passed, go down in history as one of the biggest positive highlights of the 21st Century.

PH01 please stop with this mindless "Justin Barret is a nazi" crap its getting boring. I could just as easily post "Bertie is a criminal" because he associated with dodgy brown envelope seeking politicans.

OK I will, but I still believe (and the evidence is so far is quite convincing) that he is a nazi be it with a small n.

Personally I find it quite disturbing that I am on the same side as Youth Defense, & The shinners but I think it shows that there is quite a diverse section of irish society against this treaty.

Gandalf.

If it troubles you that much to be lumped in with Youth Defence, why don't you come over to the 'Yes' side

There will is always be a section of Irish society against this treaty, or anything for that matter. This is healthy and long may it last. It would be worse if we behaved like sheep being lead from here to there without us really knowing where we're going - be it to the slaughter house or pastures new. But with this treaty I believe we're going to new pastures and not to the slaughter house like what those in the No2Nice campaign would like you to believe.

gandalf

Originally posted by PH01

And in what youth organisation was this?

Its called secondary school maybe you should have tried it

If it troubles you that much to be lumped in with Youth Defence, why don't you come over to the 'Yes' side

Why do I get visions of Darth Vader saying "join the dark side".

There will is always be a section of Irish society against this treaty, or anything for that matter. This is healthy and long may it last. It would be worse if we behaved like sheep being lead from here to there without us really knowing where we're going - be it to the slaughter house or pastures new. But with this treaty I believe we're going to new pastures and not to the slaughter house like what those in the No2Nice campaign would like you to believe.

Well we disagree on this here. There as aspects that I find qute disturbing on this treaty. It is not really about enlargement as this quote from a conference in Hamburg on EU enlargement by a staff member of Enlargement Commissioners Günter Verheugen, Christine Kirschbaum shows "A No vote in Ireland will not prevent enlargement… It will not be too bad. The closure of negotiations will apparently be delayed a little – in this case you can trust the member states. Plan B is always in the drawer".

Gandalf.

spongebob

it would be correct to say that

Justin would be Mein fuhrer

Cork would be dealt with fairly early on

M

Typedef

Just while we are on the topic of spurious mud slinging, I just happened to notice this on ye olde infamous iol homepage.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=51293724&p=5yz9443x&n=51294484

"It's very regrettable that our Taoiseach still continues to sling the mud in the hope that some of it will stick," Mr Gormley said.

John Gormley accusing the Taoiseach of carrying on a ludicrous slur campaign so he could dodge the issues contained in the Nice Treaty.

PH01

Originally posted by Typedef
John Gormley accusing the Taoiseach of carrying on a ludicrous slur campaign so he could dodge the issues contained in the Nice Treaty.

It take one to know one.

mike65

"me waving arms in the air"

Hello, back on topic?

Now is not the time to give the government a bloody nose, the local elections is time for revenge.

I was listening two labour members, one was Nicky Kelly saying No to Nice equalls no the government, I nearly crashed the van!

Its worrying such people have the vote never mind are in positions of power.

Mike.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Cork

The IFI closure in Cork is the shape of things to come.

Irish wages and production costs are far too high in comparrison to the applicant countries.

More ompanies will follow - IFI.

My second point is why John Bruton and Albert reynolds did not join Bertie at his photo opportunity with Garrett the Good - the other day?

Its all pretty wierd. A bit like the Nice Treaty.

The debate on Prime Time was pretty good last night. I think John Rodgers casme out on top,

The politicians were a load of high enfants.

Shinji

My god, Cork is the new Paddy20...

Cork

Originally posted by Shinji
My god, Cork is the new Paddy20...

I really do not get the above.

I raised a couple of questions about low wage economys in applicant countries etc & I get a pretty ambigious comment like this.

It is ambigious as the Government policy on netrality. Bertie promised us a vote on PfP before the election before last. Why did he not follow thru?

Originally posted by Cork
The IFI closure in Cork is the shape of things to come.

Irish wages and production costs are far too high in comparrison to the applicant countries.

More ompanies will follow - IFI.

Are you saying here that IFI was competing with fertiliser coming in from Eastern Europe, because that is not the case.
It was already a very competitive industry within the E.U, with their incomes declining and especially this year farmers wern't going to pay over the odds for their fertiliser.

In Stating that "Irish wages and production costs are far too high in comparison to the applicant countries" what are you advocating exactly??

Not wishing to give you an exam essay to do or anything, but excluding wages could you compare and contrast production costs in the 10 applicant countries with those in Ireland or the rest of the E.U,giving specefic examples of where the applicant countries are more effecient.
mm

DadaKopf

Originally posted by daveirl
Em hasn't the present government lost two referenda already. What makes ye think that losing this one would change anything?

Vote for the Treaty on its merits [whether you vote Yes Or No], don't vote just to tow the party line or to get FF.

That's the point - rejected referenda just maintain the status quo in most circumstances (eg. the abortion referendum). A rejected referendum just means the government can come back to the public as many times as it wants to get the answer it wants. I don't think it's fair, it's just the way it works.

About getting back at the government by voting 'no', consensus on this thread is that everyone should vote on the merits of the treaty and nothing else. When all the research came in on the last referendum, it became clear to the analysts that the underlying reason for the 'no' vote was dissatisfaction with the government and not the treaty itself. I hope this time around, it's different.

Cork

It was already a very competitive industry within the E.U,

The wage levels in Ireland are higher than those of the applicant countries. The cost of living is also cheaper in these countries.

In business - PROFIT IS EVERYTHING.

When all the research came in on the last referendum, it became clear to the analysts that the underlying reason for the 'no' vote was dissatisfaction with the government and not the treaty itself. I hope this time around, it's different.

When all the research is done on the last
election, it may became clear to the analysts that the underlying reason for the FF vote was the economy.

Every party's views on such were suspect.

gandalf

Err Cork while I am also voting NO I don't think you can blame the IFI closure on Nice.

IFI closed because it has been losing money for years. It got to the stage where it was losing €1000 per employee per week.

Gandalf.

In business - PROFIT IS EVERYTHING.

Well not quite everything, but most of it.
Customers have to be key too , otherwise there would be no profit.
I asked:

In Stating that "Irish wages and production costs are far too high in comparison to the applicant countries" what are you advocating exactly??

mm

Cork

In Stating that "Irish wages and production costs are far too high in comparison to the applicant countries" what are you advocating exactly?? [/B]

I am not advocating anything. I think that Irish Jobs will be lost as our transportation and labour costs are high as say Poland.

I am pointing out an untruth in the Yes campaign.

I am pro enlargement - but I am pro honest debate.

Originally posted by Cork
I am not advocating anything. I think that Irish Jobs will be lost as our transportation and labour costs are high as say Poland.

I am pointing out an untruth in the Yes campaign.

I am pro enlargement - but I am pro honest debate.

But surely , if you think Irish jobs will be lost, then you must be against enlargement.
I don't think Irish jobs would be lost through enlargement.
Obviously the government and most of the opposition don't think so either as they are in favour of enlargement of the E.U
I don't think any government or opposition in their right mind would campaign as strongly for enlargement(albeit with the disagreement of those that think the Nice Treaty is the wrong way to go about it) unless they thought it would be good for jobs and growth in this country as their voters would give them hell if the opposite happened.
mm

Typedef

Enlargement isn't the issue, clearly Plan B means enlargement will continue irrespective of what takes place in Ireland. What is at issue is the kind of EU ourselves and the countries who are joining the EU will end up having to live with. Will it be one where Ireland and other less powerful nations have policy in an increasingly Federated Europe dictated to us by large and influential nations or will it be one where the opinions of small States are taken into account? This I believe is the real issue in this campaign.

Clearly Ireland's opinion on Nice hasn't been taken into account by the EU, no instead Ireland has been asked to change it's opinion on the Nice Treaty, rather then Ireland's opinon on the same being reflected throughout the EU, and it is precisely this lack of respect for the opinions of Ireland and it's people as well as other smaller or less powerful nations both within and outside of the EU (but hoping to join) that the Nice Treaty and the direction of the European Union must be re-evaluated to coincide more with the needs, desires and aspirations of States like Ireland, not imposed upon Ireland.

The people have already spoken on Nice and that opinon should be acted upon. Who do the other member States think they are, trying to dictate to this country, what it's opinons on Nice should be, moreover, who the hell does this government think it is trying to dictate to the public what their opinons on Nice should be? To my mind the re-run is an attempt to do just that, to dictate European policy to Ireland, when really Ireland should be changing European policy conducive with the soverign decision of the Irish people, basically in my book Irish soveringty supercedes European Federalist aspirations and dictats.

Basically I would like to see this Treaty defeated again and a better one negotiated in it's place, rather then having the already rejected Treaty forced down the throats of Irish people and smaller nations throughout the Union at large. View this as bloodying the nose of the establishment if you like, I'm not sure that is the real issue, Irish soveringty, respect for the Irish people and the already stated position of the Irish people on this Treaty is.

Again the right of the Irish people to make decisions via the ballot box, without being told "sorry wrong answer" is in my opinon vitally important, without question, and I believe this Treaty has too many ammendums regarding Militarism, Federal Integration, EU control over Commercial areas and so on to make it beneficial to Ireland, coupled with the fact, the re-run itself is in my opinion (as a voter and a citizen) wrong for Ireland and wrong for Irish democracy, I call for this Treaty to be defeated in perpetuity, until Irish opinon is respected and acted upon, not sullied and cast aside by politicains who have the arrogance to tell Irish voters they don't understand Europe, clearly if re-running a defeated Treaty is the European way, we Irish understand this Treaty all too well, it is an ultimatum, a line drawn in the sand that says, "You Irish don't you dare reject this". Well excuse me if I don't care that the Europeans will get their hair mussed on another rejection of this Treaty, Ireland is an equal partner in Europe, not it's colony and I think the Europeans would do well to remember that. Clearly Europe regards this country as a nuisance and Europe thinks it can snap it's fingers and have democracy reverse itself in Ireland to suit Europe, I sincerely hope in this regard Europe is wrong.

Respect the wub.
Typedef.

Well this is only the second referendum on Nice.
Back to the drawing board if it's rejected and plan B, which undoubtedly there is , will have to be put in action.

The E.U must have contemplated what would have to happen if the Nice Treaty is rejected.There are probably several plan B's, which will come together as a new enlargement treaty if necessary.
Whether it would be better or worse for those that do not like the Nice Treaty is open to question.

Regarding the issue of re running referendums.
People are entitled to change their mind on any issue, if they weren't things would be very difficult.
We would be left with our first job, house, girl/boyfriend etc
The fact that the last government were going to hold a new referendum on the Nice Treaty after the general election was well flagged and that was the time to give out about it.I do not agree that it is a case of "sorry wrong answer".

All the areas of the Nice Treaty that the various no to Nice campaigners complain about are Very much out in the open and are being very well debated both here and on TV and Radio.
The literature is very clear and concise.

So actually if the no case is good enough , it will hold and this Treaty will be rejected on Saturday.
mm

Cork

All the areas of the Nice Treaty that the various no to Nice campaigners complain about are Very much out in the open and are being very well debated both here and on TV and Radio.
The literature is very clear and concise.


mm [/B]

The YES crowd are spending about 5 times the amount that the No people are.

Originally posted by Cork
The YES crowd are spending about 5 times the amount that the No people are.

Well they must be spending it very badly then as most of the literature supporing one side or the other thats been through my door has been on the no side.
mm

bertiebowl

By voting no we won't punish the goverment......they've already got their majority, Mercs and pay rises - they don't care.

The only people we will be punishing will be ourselves as our influence in the EU is frittered away and of course the applicant countries as the enlargment process will be thrown into chaos.

Our most senior civil servant in the EU says he's not sure if enlargement can go ahead at all without Nice.

As for the unknown plan "b" Typedef keeps talking about - remember some say the plan "b" could involve another 10 REFERENDUMS (one for each applicant countries) in Ireland.

VOTE YES ON SATURDAY.

gandalf

Bertie enlargement will happen if the Nice Treaty is rejected.

Heres are some quotes from Europe to support this

"A No vote in Ireland will not prevent enlargement… It will not be too bad. The closure of negotiations will apparently be delayed a little – in this case you can trust the member states. Plan B is always in the drawer". - Christine Kirschbaum, staff member of Enlargement Commissioners Günter Verheugen at a conference on EU enlargement in Hamburg

"Legally, ratification of the Nice Treaty is not necessary for enlargement. It's without any problem up to 20 members, and those beyond 20 members have only to put in the accession agreement some notes of change, some clause. But legally, it's not necessary from this specific point of view, enlargement is possible without Nice." - Roman Prodi soon after the first rejection of the Nice Treaty by Ireland.

"The solution will not be to ignore the vote, but to handle the situation. Probably it requires taking what is needed from the Nice Treaty necessary to carry through the enlargement," - Valery Giscard d'Estaing President of the Convention on the Future of Europe in Denmark July 2002.

I think we can lose that smokescreen now.

Gandalf.

ButcherOfNog

Originally posted by Cork
Is it time to give the establishment a bloody nose?

Is it time to get yourself tickled so you can't erm something? I'd vote Yes for that

Cork

Pensonal attacks - thats great.

The establishment must be worried.

ButcherOfNog

Originally posted by Cork
Pensonal attacks - thats great.

The establishment must be worried.

1. I've nothing against your pension
2. I'm the establishment now?

I'm pointing out that you and your ilk are not even slightly interested in the issue that you are supposed to be voting on, and are turning it into a different issue that you think you can whip up support for.

bonkey

Originally posted by ButcherOfNog
I'm pointing out that you and your ilk are not even slightly interested in the issue that you are supposed to be voting on, and are turning it into a different issue that you think you can whip up support for.

And you're being blatantly insulting. Please edit your post 3 back from here.

jc

ButcherOfNog

fair enough, i was

Cork

you and your ilk

For your information - I am on the Left to Centre wing of FF.

I think that this treaty is not needed for enlargement and that it will not create one extra job in this country.

When Germany, france and the UK get extra influence - they will be looking out for their meutual self interests.

Ireland - A Leader of small nations?

What a joke?