More BBC Card discussions

zak · 08-10-2002 2:51pm #1

UTV and Ch4 are already available on Sky. I bought a card from www.irishtvdirect.com and I have UTV + Ch4 I also have BBC 1,2+4 and loads more channels that I don't have on my Irish Sky card so much so I am getting rid of my Irish Sky card and sticking to my FTV card. Save's me Euro'ssssss every month. Sorry ICDG this is only Informing user's where to get FTV cards in Eire.

Leesider · 08-10-2002 3:53pm

Their website is a pity.

There is absolutely no information on anything, just an e-mail address. Has anyone heard of (or used) this lot before?

Any sign of West-Sat commencing the FTV card service again?
Also, mid October is only a week away - any new hints of UTV/Ch4 coming onstream?

Mredmond · 08-10-2002 8:07pm

I bought a card from www.irishtvdirect.com

Save's me Euro'ssssss every month. Sorry ICDG this is only Informing user's where to get FTV cards in Eire.

Sounds more like salesmanship to me.

Also agree with Leeside, the website in question has to be the crumbiest yet.

For what its worth it's registreed to a
Mr. Clonkey Long
South Island
Small
Galway
ROI
UK

In case Mr. Long (can I call you Clonk, can I?)is a contributor to this thread, what's the deal with the apostrophe in "put's"?

Also, in the spirit of tying up loose ends, John Denver crashed his plane into the side of a mountain.

robert muldoon · 08-10-2002 9:53pm

Originally posted by Leesider
Their website is a pity.

There is absolutely no information on anything, just an e-mail address. Has anyone heard of (or used) this lot before?

Any sign of West-Sat commencing the FTV card service again?
Also, mid October is only a week away - any new hints of UTV/Ch4 coming onstream?

I did'nt know west-sat had stopped doing FTA cards. I got three from them in the last 6 weeks, and they all worked perfectly, one even went to Spain

Leesider · 09-10-2002 6:11am

The West-Sat website still has the following message on it:

"At the present time we are unable to provide FTA Cards.
We will inform you as soon as we can provide them again.
We apologise for any inconvenience caused"

jez · 09-10-2002 7:50am

This thread covers UTV/Channel 4 coming to Sky. These last points are irrelevant.

Tony · 09-10-2002 9:43am

As sky are about to re issue all cards maybe west sat decided to hold off until the new ones are available.

Tony

carrolls · 09-10-2002 11:10am

As sky are about to re issue all cards maybe west sat decided to hold off until the new ones are available.

Who said they are going to reissue all cards. (There are probably four million FTV cards issued.)
According to the Sky Rag they are gong to reissue over 6 million cards.
there are 6.1 million Sky subscribers. I don't see Sky forking out for 4 million FTV cards. (Although maybe they will.....)
Also They use a different Hard encryption system for their own Family pack and PPV channels. It is the Sky Encryption System that is vulnerable, not the FTV Soft encryption system. (Nobody will bother cracking FTV because its free anyway.)
There are 5 different card categories:
Virgin/FTV,
Married/FTV only,
Married/Deactivated,
Virgin/Sky Only,
Married/Sky Only/Activated.
The first two use soft encryption and the last three use hard.

DMC · 09-10-2002 11:20am

I've split the thread in two, FTA discussion here, UTV and Channel 4, along with John Denver discussion stay over there on the original thread.

Tony · 09-10-2002 5:09pm

Originally posted by carrolls
Who said they are going to reissue all cards. (.

They did (sky), there is no difference between a bbc card and a sky card in so far as the electronics contained therein so if they change the transmission/encryption parameters they must change all the cards unless they have come up with a new way of doing this

Tony

carrolls · 09-10-2002 8:08pm

In Videoguard you can have an unlimited amount of encryption systems running at the same time.
The FTV card uses one encryption system while the Sky system uses another.
If you order a PPV movie you are using yet another.
If your new Sky card comes early, and you activate it, you are using a new encryption system. If you refrain from activating your new card, and keep using the old card, the old encryption system is still being used.
No knowledge of the new Sky encryption system can be obtained by analysing the FTV encryption system.
The new Sky encryption system (Using the new card) is more interlinked with the new Digibox O/S downloaded recently. This concerns improvments in Interactivity as well as PPV security only.

byte · 09-10-2002 8:32pm

I really hope you're right carrolls as I don't want to go to the hassle of getting another FTV card!

carrolls · 09-10-2002 10:06pm

I am not saying they won't issue new FTV cards.
What I'm saying is there is no technical (Security) reason for them to do so. You can run any number of encryption systems in parallel. In fact they could run a different encryption system for every individual card if they wanted.
There may be Political reasons for doing an FTV changeover however.
But replacing 4 million FTV cards to counter a few thousand overseas cards seems a trifle un-economic to me.

Tony · 09-10-2002 11:00pm

I must disagree, they all use the same system just different encryption keys for different purposes. When seca changed to seca 2 that was an encryption system change, old cards still worked for a period as both systems were being used in tandem. The reason sky are doing this is to counteract a perceived piracy threat so maybe they wont mind if the bbc encryption is vunerable.It may not be not be cost effective to use both old and new systems. I was told by sky themselves that all cards are being changed although it would not be the first time they have released false information.

Regards Tony

Originally posted by carrolls
In Videoguard you can have an unlimited amount of encryption systems running at the same time.
The FTV card uses one encryption system while the Sky system uses another.
If you order a PPV movie you are using yet another.
If your new Sky card comes early, and you activate it, you are using a new encryption system. If you refrain from activating your new card, and keep using the old card, the old encryption system is still being used.
No knowledge of the new Sky encryption system can be obtained by analysing the FTV encryption system.
The new Sky encryption system (Using the new card) is more interlinked with the new Digibox O/S downloaded recently. This concerns improvments in Interactivity as well as PPV security only.

carrolls · 10-10-2002 8:40am

The entitlement information (ECM)on each card(Old or New) is controlled by a Philips Integrated Conditional Access Module(ICAM).
An encrypted signature is generated and adjusted by the card and sent to the ICAM for entitlement purposes.
This adjustment is a simple XOR function for FTV cards. For Sky and PPV channels this adjustment is made by an elaborate 64 bit hash algorithm.
So you see they use two very different systems for FTV and Sky.
Thats not to say they won't change the FTV cards. But there is no need to.

Icehouse · 10-10-2002 12:00pm

Be that as it may lads, but I reckon those of us who have expired sub cards used for FTV viewing can at least be sure that our cards will need replacement. And I believe Sky will probably try and replace all cards so as to cut down on the export of cards. The BBC probably asked them to do this.

carrolls · 10-10-2002 12:17pm

Replacing 4 million FTV cards without any monetary return on investment just to stop a few thousand overseas viewers? Maybe they do hate us that much.

lawhec · 10-10-2002 1:56pm

Even if the FTV cards and the Sky subscription cards use seperate encryption codes within Videoguard, what is to say that the *hacking* of a FTV card would not open potential security holes for the Sky Subscription card?

IMHO They'd probably be safe than sorry and re-issue every card. Also I'd find it very hard to believe that 4 million FTV cards have been issued. AFAIK the number of legitimate cards (those that have been sent out as FTV cards, not expired Sky subscription cards) roughly being used in the UK is a 5 figure mark, close to 6 figures (around 80,000 - and this hasn't increased much since Sky now insist that you take out one of their packages to get a free digibox) and then there is the grey market which is perhaps much bigger. 400,000 - 500,000 sounds much more reasonable unless someone can prove otherwise.

Icehouse · 10-10-2002 2:11pm

Sky's own figure of 8 million cards to replace surprised me, as they don't have *that* many satellite subscribers, and many of their viewers are indirect through cable services, so would not need replacement cards. I'd be with our NI correspondant when he says there aren't too many FTV cards either. Generally people that buy a dish pay for Sky, at least for a while, and thus would never have to ask for an 'FTV' card. there is absolutely no way that 4 million FTV cards were issued - I doubt that there are even that many ex-sub cards still in use.

Tony · 10-10-2002 4:16pm

Originally posted by carrolls
Replacing 4 million FTV cards without any monetary return on investment just to stop a few thousand overseas viewers? Maybe they do hate us that much.

Sounds crazy I know. They never wanted to change thier own cards either but this perceived piracy threat has them a little paranoid I think.

Tony

chernobyl · 10-10-2002 7:38pm

Originally posted by carrolls
.
This adjustment is a simple XOR function for FTV cards.

Really.
No, no..seriously.."simple"

Do expand on the simplicity of the FTV system for me versus the complexity of Sky's own channels.
..please.

Originally posted by carrolls
.So you see they use two very different systems for FTV and Sky.

No i dont see the difference considering you dont/i dont/the magority dont, know the 99% the system you omitted.

marclt · 10-10-2002 8:38pm

the reason for sky not changing ftv cards is because the upgrading of cards relates to the amount of date a card can store for box office movies and events.

I dont think a change of the ftv card is required!

chernobyl · 10-10-2002 11:02pm

ooh fuk me, and Elvis is still alive.
Christ i suprised someone from "paranoid times" has not put his suggestion into the ring here....

carrolls · 10-10-2002 11:23pm

Do expand on the simplicity of the FTV system for me versus the complexity of Sky's own channels.

Did I actually use those words?. Wrong again chernobyl.
But anyway this is not the Forum to have an in depth discussion on the merits of XOR masking versus hashing.
Also I didn't need to submit the other 99% for the point I was making.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how the Sky Digital System works if you happen the be an Electronics engineer. Its another story to crack the encryption system but thats another days work.

No i dont see the difference considering you dont/i dont/the magority dont, know the 99% the system you omitted

If you were a programmer you would (Know the difference)!

chernobyl · 11-10-2002 12:36am

Originally posted by carrolls
Did I actually use those words?.

Yeah, you did.

Originally posted by carrolls
But anyway this is not the Forum to have an in depth discussion on the merits of XOR masking versus hashing.

No but to you its a place for copying/pasting (sligtly editing) from you know where.
Instead of regiterating bull$hit that sky busters got wrong maybe you could form your own opinions.

Originally posted by carrolls
Also I didn't need to submit the other 99% for the point I was making.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how the Sky Digital System works if you happen the be an Electronics engineer. Its another story to crack the encryption system but thats another days work..

..............
Absolutely...you dont need to be an engineer, just able to use a "point and hurl" windows system called "copy/[some editing]paste"

We can pretend Carrolls, you are the ****, you know your **** now toddle off for that "other days work" so i can ...ah fuk it.

Originally posted by carrolls
If you were a programmer you would (Know the difference)!

You got it wrong originally, you spewed out bull****.

This adjustment is a simple XOR function for FTV cards

"XOR"..indeed (like is some freak of nature, reserved purely for the purposes of FTV cards)
XOR NAND whatever the fuk you want Carrolls is used in every Sky card during each boot to determine which state the box and card are and which bouqué the users is entitled too.

I am talking encryptions.

jez · 11-10-2002 8:04am

Chaps,

This discussion on FTV cards is getting too technical for an ordinary joe soap like me.

For what its worth this is my opinion.

1. We're all using a Sky Digibox to watch our channels .
2.The current Sky sub card and FTV card are identical in appearance except for a different phone number.
3. I therefore assume the technology is the same.
4. Basically,folks ,face it , the cards are all going to be changed during the same period. Both BBC and Sky have a vested interest in ensuring their channels are not being watched illegally. ie. by non subscribers or outside the jurisdicition in the Beebs case.

5.Scenario will be .

a)Legit Sky subscribers get new card and life goes on.
b)FTV card holders will have to do what they previously did to get new card.
c)Ex Sky sub card holders (like me)are basically in trouble.Money down the drain.Will have to go down the FTV road if we are lucky to have contacts etc...

Icehouse · 11-10-2002 12:05pm

Jez,

Well done for getting back on topic, for stating the facts and not entering into bickering or 'Now, now lads' mediation !

Tony · 11-10-2002 12:38pm

Originally posted by marclt
the reason for sky not changing ftv cards is because the upgrading of cards relates to the amount of date a card can store for box office movies and events.

How did you come up with that idea??

marclt · 11-10-2002 7:53pm

The current cards used by Sky are limited to how much purchasing data it can store. Those who heavily use the Box office service by ordering movies through the remote control have found that they can only purchase a certain amount before the card rejects any more ordering - i dont know the exact amounts - but you might buy 5 movies.. one for every day of the week and then you wouldn't be able to order a premiership+ and a F1 digital event.

So Sky are sending out new cards, that can hold more data... it'll cost 'em money to send new cards but in the end they'll get more money and less grief.

If the FTV cards were being changed, the BBC would have published information about it... they're top on all that kind of thing (www.bbc.co.uk/reception and www.bbc.co.uk/digital) I've not seen anything here about it - so I can't imagine an upgrade for FTV cards is on the cards... you can't purchase box office events or films via these cards in the UK as Sky don't hold customer details or bank information.

Lads... don't panic!

chernobyl · 11-10-2002 8:01pm

Originally posted by marclt

So Sky are sending out new cards, that can hold more data...

Yeah you are right...Sky would do it the wrong way.
Imagine if they asked some clever programmer(s) to develop a better compression scheme so that current cards *can hold* more PPV's or jee wiz, even use the STB as a temporary buffer with its megor 32mb of RAM....nah thats just sensible.

Actually marclt, the PPV purchase restictions are imposed by software by Sky on each individual customer and are not hardware limited but "credit" limited.

There is almost a flaw in the PPV system in that you can order one and never pay for it. Sky have still to develop the balls to make it pay on demand.

...assuming in your world that if you were right, issueing 6M+ viewing cards would be a joke considering the cost versus the money Sky actually get from PPV's.

Maybe im wrong....i dont want to be though.

Tony · 11-10-2002 8:18pm

Interesting theory but no more than that. The guys in sky tell me its an anti piracy issue nothing to do with card memory, as Chernobyl says the expense involved in replacing cards could not justify any increase in ppv ordering. If your theory was true sky could simply increase the call back rate frequency and download the ppv data thereby releasing the memory. The limits imposed now are simply credit control measures which can be changed at sky's behest.

Tony

Originally posted by marclt
The current cards used by Sky are limited to how much purchasing data it can store. Those who heavily use the Box office service by ordering movies through the remote control have found that they can only purchase a certain amount before the card rejects any more ordering - i dont know the exact amounts - but you might buy 5 movies.. one for every day of the week and then you wouldn't be able to order a premiership+ and a F1 digital event.

So Sky are sending out new cards, that can hold more data... it'll cost 'em money to send new cards but in the end they'll get more money and less grief.

If the FTV cards were being changed, the BBC would have published information about it... they're top on all that kind of thing (www.bbc.co.uk/reception and www.bbc.co.uk/digital) I've not seen anything here about it - so I can't imagine an upgrade for FTV cards is on the cards... you can't purchase box office events or films via these cards in the UK as Sky don't hold customer details or bank information.

Lads... don't panic!

carrolls · 11-10-2002 10:12pm

you are the ****, you know your **** now toddle off for that "other days work" so i can ...ah fuk it

Chernobyl, Isn't it an utter drag when you cannot express yourself to your full potential.

chernobyl · 11-10-2002 10:53pm

Originally posted by carrolls
Chernobyl, Isn't it an utter drag when you cannot express yourself to your full potential.

Yes it certainly is and you are the only person who twitches that nerve..thank you.

12-10-2002 11:12am

I got a BBC Scotland card yesterday which i ordered on Oct.3rd and it seems to be like the current Sky card,no new logos on it,so maybe it doesn't apply to FTA cards.They did say that they would be issuing the new cards from October,has anyone else received a card which they ordered this month?

byte · 12-10-2002 11:30am

Originally posted by zorro2566
I got a BBC Scotland card yesterday which i ordered on Oct.3rd and it seems to be like the current Sky card,no new logos on it,so maybe it doesn't apply to FTA cards.They did say that they would be issuing the new cards from October,has anyone else received a card which they ordered this month?

On that note, the Sky sub cards haven't changed yet either so that theory doesn't hold.

I guess it's inevitable that both FTV and sub cards will change which is very unfortunate!

watty · 12-10-2002 11:35pm

I manage a Webserver and a Mail server. I have programmed for over 25 years.

Given rumours about BSkyB allegedly finacing the cracking of a competitors card....

Given number of Hacks done on Videocrypt....

If I was Sky, I couldn't be parinoid enough...

I don't KNOW why they are issuing cards. I heard it is put off till January and no-one has seen one.

They *might* be adding more memory..
Or maybe they are worried that the oldest cards will wear out, I assume its eerom, nvram or something that doesn't handle as much cycles as ordinary RAM, but I would have though they'd be good for a long time yet.

If they reissue ALL cards, it would wipe out people with other folkses old sub cards (max 10% a year) or one time accomodation addresses FTV cards. But neither of those are actually "costing" Sky in lost subscriptions. (BBC1 & BBC2 possible exception in ROI, but not in Gibralter or Greece).

It might be that there is a conceptual hack and it is only time till it is commercial.

We may never know. Obviously if it includes FTV cards we'll know. I'd have thought that the FTV addreses are on file and if so a new card will wing it's way to the address, just as Videocrypt cards did.

chernobyl · 13-10-2002 12:49am

Originally posted by watty
Given number of Hacks done on Videocrypt....

According to person(s) close to that scene [and on this forum] the people capable of cracking Sky are "out of the loop".

Aparently Sky had this card on the shelf for a quite a time.

If Sky are going to re-issue 6 million cards, its not on the basis of a potential hack, or something they are paranoid about, Sky will have witnessed a genuine crack/hack of their system.

If they are re-issueing 6 million Sky cards on this basis then its quite possible the FTV's will be issued a new card.
Even though FTV's are free, those rules only apply to residents of the great kingdom.

Im not close enough to any scene to even have a sniff of a SktD crack but i did not expect it either as i hope hacking groups are being a bit clever about who/how they release info to.

watty · 13-10-2002 8:59am

Given bitternes regarding lackof even a legitimate CAM for non-Digibox for legitimate viewing card.
Given the high profile "It's not been cracked" of Videoguard vs what Sky learnt on Videocrypt, I'd be amazed if a hack could be kept secret. Someone woulds have to boast, after all half the thing of the people doing stuff like that is Ego.

I accept it could be because the existing card is cracked or hacked, but find it hard to believe.

(I joined the Ancient Society of Axion Sceptics a long time ago. I don't take anyone's pronoucements at face value. Especially any operative on a Sky Call centre help line

)

carrolls · 21-10-2002 9:45am

Got a mail from the BBC last night.
As follows.

Thank you for your e-mail regarding Sky Digital.
If you already have a free-to-view card, you should not need a new one.Thank you and best wishes.
BBC Digital Information.

So you can sleep a little sounder.

watty · 21-10-2002 10:50am

Assuming the respondant knows anything about it.
Enthusists seem to know more about what is comming next on Sky than the girls in the Call Centre.

The Beeb is a big place. Maybe your respondent didn't get a memo yet. (When I worked there you were lucky to get a Memo about important things.. more likely about not taking canteen stuff back).

lawhec · 21-10-2002 4:47pm

According to What Satellite, all Videoguard cards will be replaced, not just the Sky ones but all systems that use the encryption which will see about 30 million new cards issued.

So I guess the encryption is being strengthened. Although Sky Digital hasn't been hacked DirecTV in the US supposedly has problems.

watty · 21-10-2002 8:35pm

30M ? There arn't that many TVs in British Isles.
Where Arewe talking? Videoguard in Italy, Brazil, Pakistan.. which other places?

lawhec · 21-10-2002 11:32pm

Certainly Videoguard is used by Sky in the UK & Ireland, and also by DirecTV in the US. AFAIK it's probably used elsewhere in the world where Sky has a digital Pay TV service (so 30 million cards, when you consider that there are 6 million subscribers plus counting the amount of FTV cards either ordered specifically or from expired Sky Cards, it does sound reasonably feasible.

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