More GOV responses

BoneCollector

After the circular response to the pettion on eircomtribunal.. which still did not address the real issue, i sent yet several other mails repeating myself and pointing out the obvious, (eircom flat rate broad band etc..)

this is what i have received. (needless to say i will be replying to this again..)


"Mary Hanafin T.D., Minister of State for the Information Society, has asked
me to acknowledge and thank you for your recent e-mails about internet access and related issues.

The Minister has noted your comments and queries and has asked to say that,
while Government policy was set out in the 'New Connections' document in
March of this year, she and her colleagues are aware that the complexity of
the issues involved, coupled with the ongoing developments in technology
and shifts in international economic and market conditions, means that the
situation needs to be constantly reviewed.

In that context, the Minister has asked me to assure you that all of the
issues are being monitored and examined by Government on an on-going basis
so as to ensure that the necessary policy responses are being made."

Anyone else follow up on there circulars?

Canadian

Government Speak:

In that context, the Minister has asked me to assure you that all of the issues are being monitored and examined by Government on an on-going basis so as to ensure that the necessary policy responses are being made

English Conversion

The Minister is not actually doing anything but will occasionally use the words "E Hub" and "Synergy" to impress other people that don't know what they're talking about either.



=====================
Ireland has the best
government on the Island.

crawler

Waffle in it's most waffley & waffled form.

Your letter is currently in the bin - filed under "keep my head in the sand"

BoneCollector

Okay i have sent a heafty reply to this waffle pointing it out as such..
But regardless.. we should all keep sending mails even if in return we keep getting Government Waffles.. as it will aid to highlight the issue as being such and that it wont go away untill we get what we want.. (so keep writing...)

BigEejit

There might be a bit of impetus given to your email if THEY had to collect their mail over a 56kbps ... but I think sending a peon a email about something that they obviously dont give a damn about will only make them ignore all their emails, but, heh, its good to get it off your chest...

Jorinn

Hmm, the issues are it's
1. Too expensive to access the internet for the speed and time offered.
2. er. that's it really.

Dun

Originally posted by BigEejit
There might be a bit of impetus given to your email if THEY had to collect their mail over a 56kbps

Someone should send them a nice piece of HTML mail, complete with nice 100 mb unencoded-wav background music. Anyone with a broadband connection? And send it again, cause 'I didn't know if it went the first time'.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by BoneCollector

After the circular response to the petition on eircomtribunal.. which still did not address the real issue, i sent yet several other mails repeating myself and pointing out the obvious, (eircom flat rate broad band etc..)
...this is what i have received.

Anyone else follow up on there circulars?

We have published two very well informed reply letters to Hanafin's petition response on our Response to the Petition page.
I wonder which answers they've got from our eMinister?

Peter
www.eircomtribunal.com

Canadian

Peter-

I just had another look at your site - Apparently the Government has been looking at it as well given their feedback to your comments on the letter they sent you.

This is great news - and not only for the obvious reason!

As you know, MDR and I have opposing positions on Ireland's government. To recap, he's an advocate of the STUPID theory, I'm an advocate of the CORRUPT theory. (we have mathematically disproven any other theories)

The fact that they have been able to launch a broswer and find www.eircomtribunal.com (presumably while breathing) proves they are not as Stupid as MDR thought.

Keeping Ireland in the dark ages while fully understanding the use & usefullness of the Internet means they therefore must be CORRUPT.

I win. To bad Ireland's future is the loser.

=====================================
At 1.10 EUR, cows in the EU receive more wages
per day than 1/5th of the Human Population on
this planet. And to top it off, English cows are Mad.

OHP

Originally posted by BoneCollector
After the circular response to the pettion on eircomtribunal.. which still did not address the real issue, i sent yet several other mails repeating myself and pointing out the obvious, (eircom flat rate broad band etc..)

this is what i have received. (needless to say i will be replying to this again..)


"Mary Hanafin T.D., Minister of State for the Information Society, has asked
me to acknowledge and thank you for your recent e-mails about internet access and related issues.

The Minister has noted your comments and queries and has asked to say that,
while Government policy was set out in the 'New Connections' document in
March of this year, she and her colleagues are aware that the complexity of
the issues involved, coupled with the ongoing developments in technology
and shifts in international economic and market conditions, means that the
situation needs to be constantly reviewed.

In that context, the Minister has asked me to assure you that all of the
issues are being monitored and examined by Government on an on-going basis
so as to ensure that the necessary policy responses are being made."

Anyone else follow up on there circulars?

Is there not a SINGLE Minister out there that can handle answering a question without a load of waffle? Notice the question you asked was still not answered properly... but sidestepped!

BAH! Who do they think we are anyway?

OHP

BigEejit

posted by canadian
As you know, MDR and I have opposing positions on Ireland's government. To recap, he's an advocate of the STUPID theory, I'm an advocate of the CORRUPT theory. (we have mathematically disproven any other theories)

I think you are both right, they are corrupt AND stupid ... If they were smart they wouldnt have gotten caught (e.g. Ray "Brown Envelope" Burke) and they would have also nipped the tribunals in the bud before they came back and bit them on the a$$...:D

sceptre

Originally posted by BigEejit
I think you are both right, they are corrupt AND stupid ... If they were smart they wouldnt have gotten caught (e.g. Ray "Brown Envelope" Burke) and they would have also nipped the tribunals in the bud before they came back and bit them on the a$$...:D

A fellow Yes Minister watcher I see. I think it's fair comment to state that we've at least had many corrupt and stupid politicians at the highest levels of office in this country. Time, intention and delivery will let us know whether this is still the case.

Incidentally, I got the same response as BC this week.

I too will be making a reply.

I've my doubts on ever getting a relevant, reasonable, informed, useful response but this is my current bone. One answer to a simple question might be something (I have a selection of simple questions, some of which can even be answered with a "yes" or "no").

"New Connections", in case anyone hasn't noticed, is a joke. Less than six pages deal with any policy the government may or may not have in regard to infrastructure and regulation. The rest of the document is nice waffly stuff about how we're going to ba able to file tax returns by 2008 and get government information by 2004. They're behind on almost every aspect of the proposals, which is amazing given that 90% of the document strictly deals with upgrading websites.

I'll be doing a serious critique of the policy our government has for the next ten years for the Internet (as laid out in "New Connections"). It'll take some time as I don't want to pull any punches on it, given that it's the lynchpin of the government's Internet policy. I know it's the government's policy because that's what Alice Kearney informed me on behalf of the Minister (and presumably this was a personal instruction* about which the Minister feels strongly). Interestingly enough I can't seem to reconcile the inconsistencies between the document, the earlier statements by Minister O'Rourke and the later Fianna Fail manifesto (it doesn't seem to be directly linked from the party website any longer but it's still here).


Should anyone else feel that "New Connections" is a whole load of bumpf with no actual plan on implementation, I'm sure Minister Hanafin would be pleased to hear from you.

This may seem like an anti-Fianna Fail rant to some. It's not. The definition of modern Western political leadership these days seems to be a matter of stating a bold direction with no real idea of how to implement it. "New Connections" seems to be a perfect example of this. If this is the lynchpin of this government's Internet policy I hope they don't have to back it up in public.


*Or not. I'll vote for "not"

BoneCollector

Since this was a lot of waffle my resonce was as follows...

"I am now starting to feel that this administration has no interest in taking responsibility for the issues I have outlined, since this response is clearly an attempt at patronism and once again address’s nothing!

Telling me you are AWARE!? of the situation does not address the issue.
Telling me you are MONITORING the situation does not address the issue.
I have asked direct questions and pointed out specific facts and each time I get a response from any of your offices it completely avoids the issues as your previous mail just did, and address’s Nothing just like current policy making in the "new connection document" which is completely interpretive and Mandates Nothing!

Its all an attempt to fool the public into thinking something is being done when infact there is not!

Your responses do not inspire confidence and only goes further to supporting my comments made in my last mail.
So at this point I am still waiting for a proper answer to the issues I have placed in this mail and would be obliged if this office would make a personal response to my mails rather than sending out mails like this one that are completely interpretive (just like Irish policy) and takes responsibility for nothing..

I await your response"


STILL WAITING....

yellum

Originally posted by sceptre

"New Connections", in case anyone hasn't noticed, is a joke. Less than six pages deal with any policy the government may or may not have in regard to infrastructure and regulation. The rest of the document is nice waffly stuff about how we're going to ba able to file tax returns by 2008 and get government information by 2004. They're behind on almost every aspect of the proposals, which is amazing given that 90% of the document strictly deals with upgrading websites.

......

Should anyone else feel that "New Connections" is a whole load of bumpf with no actual plan on implementation, I'm sure Minister Hanafin would be pleased to hear from you.

Its one of the docs I need to get round to reading. First have to finish my reply to the Future Delivery of Broadband doc.

De Rebel

There is little evidence to show that any great number of Irish politicians over the last 80 years have been either stupid or corrupt. Lacking in education, foresight, culture, and vision perhaps. But stupid and/or corrupt is unfair on the great majority who were well intentioned and hard working. Those comments are the sort of sweeping generalisation you'd expect to read in a tabloid headline. There are exceptions of course. And as a society I think we are finally coming to grips with how to deal with those exceptions.

Regarding Sceptre's points about the government’s "New Communications" document, I couldn't agree more. I don't think that documents shortcomings are the result of either stupidity or corruption. I think that these people (who live in a somewhat different world to the rest of us and have different daily experiences) are simply missing the point. Our role is to help them see the light, not insult them for the heck of it.

Lastly, Sceptre, I have posted an observation on that document on the "Broadband Britain 'must follow Korea path'" thread if you are interested. I won't repeat my points here.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by De Rebel
Lacking in education, foresight, culture, and vision perhaps...
I don't think the document's shortcomings are the result of either stupidity or corruption. I think that these people are simply missing the point. Our role is to help them see the light, not insult them for the heck of it.

"Well, John, thank you. I knew you did not wish to be too hard, and I am glad you see it was only ignorance."

John's voice almost startled me as he answered:

"Only ignorance! only ignorance! how can you talk about only ignorance? Don't you know that it is the worst thing in the world, next to wickedness? -- and which does the most mischief heaven only knows. If people can say, `Oh! I did not know, I did not mean any harm,' they think it is all right.

From Black Beauty

dahamsta

De Rebel, your faith is inspiring. Now could someone hand De Rebel a pair of spectacles? Anyone "missing the point" at this stage is either dumb as a brush or taking brown envelopes by the skipload. In the Irish Government, that type is in the majority, and a very simple demonstration of that is the fact that the only thing they regularly agree on is raises for themselves, even when the rest of the country is taking it on the chin. The majority of them don't respect us, don't care about anyone only themselves, and their images, and their shareholdings. Don't insult me by asking me to respect them as a group. I'll respect them on an individual basis, thank you.

adam

BigEejit

Posted by De Rebel
There is little evidence to show that any great number of Irish politicians over the last 80 years have been either stupid or corrupt

Unfortunately, you are wrong... there is 50 million Euros worth of evidence (or possibly more, how much did those tribunals cost?)

I firmly believe that this is the tip of the iceberg...

And as posted by dahamsta, I'll respect them on an individual basis, thank you i.e. they have to earn my respect the same as anyone else has to and to date there has been no reason to do give them my respect...

De Rebel

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
"Well, John, thank you. I knew you did not wish to be too hard, and I am glad you see it was only ignorance."

John's voice almost startled me as he answered:

"Only ignorance! only ignorance! how can you talk about only ignorance? Don't you know that it is the worst thing in the world, next to wickedness? -- and which does the most mischief heaven only knows. If people can say, `Oh! I did not know, I did not mean any harm,' they think it is all right.

From Black Beauty

(Off topic)

Ordinarily, I’d be slow to respond to philosophy taken directly from a horse’s mouth, but the style of your response demands a reply.

I’m not sure quite what point you were attempting to make by throwing that quotation in my face; if you are trying to attribute to me an accusation that out politicians are ignorant then you are mistaken. I didn’t use the word “ignorant”, not would I. Sewell’s book is preachy, sentimental and melodramatic in a fairly classic Victorian style but as it is apparently of help to you let me quote from it in response 'there are a great many kinds of men; there are good, thoughtful men like our master, that any horse may be proud to serve; but there are bad, cruel men, who never ought to have a horse or dog to call their own. Beside, there are a great many foolish men, vain, ignorant, and careless, who never trouble themselves to think…’ and so there are many kinds of politician. We elect them and we put them in power. If they have faults, failings, and deficiencies then it is our responsibility also.

(Wandering back on topic)

Many of our politicians are from a generation and from backgrounds and from careers that give them little appreciation of commerce at large and the internet in particular. They simply do not have the mindset to easily assimilate the importance of an infrastructure such as broadband.

I contend that the challenge to those of us who care is to educate out politicians. In mature democracies the importance, worth and validity of lobbying politicians is accepted and is the way people do business every day. Lampoon them, insult them and belittle them if you will. I believe that to be at best pointless and quite probably self-defeating.

If indeed ignorance it is, then surely education is the best solution. I believe that that is the task facing IOFFL

If we recieve a response from a Minister or a Government Department that we are dissatisfied with, then we must try and try again until we succeed. At least we are being heard.

De Rebel

Originally posted by BigEejit
Unfortunately, you are wrong... there is 50 million Euros worth of evidence (or possibly more, how much did those tribunals cost?)

I firmly believe that this is the tip of the iceberg...

And as posted by dahamsta, I'll respect them on an individual basis, thank you i.e. they have to earn my respect the same as anyone else has to and to date there has been no reason to do give them my respect...

(Off topic)

Regarding stupidity: Whether or not Irish politicians and Irish Governments are stupid is a matter of opinion, little point in arguing.

Regarding corruption: So far the tribunals have found one politician (Burke) to be corrupt (Flood tribunal). Two others have been found to have cases to answer (McCracken tribunal). One other has been found guilty of obstruction, nothing else to date. (also Flood tribunal). Even if we assume all four to be guilty, then double their number, then double it again, 16 out of the hundreds who have held ministries and thousands who have held Dail seats constitutes but a drop in the ocean. I do not believe that the numbers support Canadian’s theory that the Irish Government is corrupt.

This is off topic, so I will only answer what I regard as the more serious of your points. Regarding the costs associated with the tribunals and the respect due to elected representatives those topics belong on the politics board.

(On topic)

As I said in my previous post, I believe that the challenge for IOFFL is to lobby, with its concomitant tasks of raising awareness, educating and influencing our policy makers. A response that lacks depth and accuracy and commitment should be seen as a challenge to us and we should deal with it like adults.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by De Rebel

I'm not sure quite what point you were attempting to make by throwing that quotation in my face;..

Sorry, if you felt that to be an unfriendly act. I was just trying to make the point that ignorance (noun: The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed) will often have consequences just as undesirable as stupidity or corruptness.

I contend that the challenge to those of us who care is to educate our politicians...
If indeed ignorance it is, then surely education is the best solution.

Fully agree with you. My background tells me that provocation can be one very helpful tool in this regard.

Peter

BigEejit

Offtopic, ... last time I promise!

Regarding corruption: So far the tribunals have found one politician (Burke) to be corrupt (Flood tribunal). Two others have been found to have cases to answer (McCracken tribunal). One other has been found guilty of obstruction, nothing else to date. (also Flood tribunal). Even if we assume all four to be guilty, then double their number, then double it again, 16 out of the hundreds who have held ministries and thousands who have held Dail seats constitutes but a drop in the ocean. I do not believe that the numbers support Canadian’s theory that the Irish Government is corrupt.

I actually thought that the number was larger, the only reason being that the group as a whole kept their mouths shut and so foiled the tribunal...
Speaking of numbers, some of the individuals that had to leave office have held ministries several times in the past, in fact I thought that nearly all of the people who were caught (not only by tribunals) were very high in Government ... that kind of throws your "rule of thumb" about numbers out the window....

Back onto the topic -

Many of our politicians are from a generation and from backgrounds and from careers that give them little appreciation of commerce at large and the internet in particular. They simply do not have the mindset to easily assimilate the importance of an infrastructure such as broadband.

I contend that the challenge to those of us who care is to educate out politicians

I do not know the figures but the last time I heard was that a large proportion of our elected officials were farmers (most of the rest are teachers and solicitors)... Trying to get them to see that "broadband is good, dialup is bad" is going to be fun ... first of all they have to be convinced that it will not affect their subsidies, then they have to be convinced that it will do them some good ..
An example: Our elected official from South Kerry (who is a solicitor) managed to get funding for a marina (with hotel, and other supporting stuff) in Caherciveen, which will benefit the local community, which will get him into the good books of the electorate, which will get him re-elected...

But could the same be true if I or even a group submitted a proposal to get a wireless network (or getting the exchanges in the area DSL enabled) all over the area, will it bring enterprise and start ups and general goodness? ... the answer is NO because this is South Kerry and all the larger established companies and start ups dont want to go near it .. The elected offical will get his boys to investigate the proposal and will see that some people will enjoy the bandwidth but that most people (this is a rural area, penetration of D'Internet is not very high)wont get the gear to use it or dont care ... the upshot? the minuses outweigh the pluses ... the elected official will placate the proposer(s) with "but look at the lovely (empty) marina!" .. life goes on ...