ethnic profiling?

adnans

from http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,802729,00.html

The US yesterday introduced a sweeping new security regime at its airports and borders, photographing and fingerprinting visitors from Arab and Muslim countries.
The regulations, which were denounced by critics as ethnic profiling, went into effect at all American airports and border crossings.

when i read that this morning i actually laughed but it seems to be very true. i only wondered what effect will this have on people that get caught in this new scheme.

and it didnt stop there. the iranian film director abbas kiarostami failed to obtain a visa in time to attend the New York Film Festival in the wake of new security measures. in previous incident with another Iranian film director, Jafar Panah, who was detained in a makeshift cell at the new york airport after refusing to allow himself to be photographed, or to have his fingerprints taken. he has later described conditions in the holding cell, and said that when he left there were people still inside who did not know what would await them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/01/movies/01DIRE.html

if this is happening to famous film directors i can only imagine whats happening to normal people who travel there. even if i had the money and will to visit America now, it wouldnt be possible since my religion is Islam, the country i was born in is Libya and my passport photo looks convincingly terrorist like

adnans

Karl Hungus

Airport security is becoming EXTREMELY riduclous as of late. In my many travels I've had, I've met with many helpfull and nice airport staff, but when coming back from a metal festival in England recently, I had a run-in with some very nasty, and ridiculous security measures.

I was made take my BOOTS off!
I was told that I couldn't have my wallet chain on the flight.
I was searched quite roughly.

Now, this was probably reasonable, if it wasn't for the sheer rudeness of the security, and the fact that I've flown back and forth from Ireland to England on MANY occasions, and had no hassle. I had only just flown into the airport the morning before also.

Grand, you could "Probably" try to strangle someone with a chain. But looking at it from a weapon point of view, a simple belt would be far more usefull, it could be easily made into a noose! But I'm sure nobody would get hassled for wearing a belt, would they? In fact, that was probably the only thing I had on me that they didn't have a problem with.

Boots. Sure, there's the incident with the man who had explosives in his shoes, but COME ON!?!? How many people do you think could hide explosives in their shoes, and how many different kind of shoes/boots could hold them? Want a ****ing list? Yet nobody else was stopped and forced to have their shoes removed and inspected!

Now, there was no need for all this ****e at all, tbh. Why? Firstly, has there ever been any incident with a 'Metalhead' or anyone suchlike trying to hijack/destroy a plane? No. If there was, sure I might have been understanding. Secondly, when was such a short, domestic flight ever been hijacked? The flight lasted 30 minutes, and most likely didn't have enough fuel to feck off and suicide bomb America.

But it just goes to show the ridiculous state airport security is in.
So what good is having a persons photograph and fingerprints taken going to do?

I could probably waffle on about this, but I'm too tired right now.

Beruthiel

so if you are a Muslim, they photograph and fingerprint you

back in the day, if you were a jew, you had to wear the star of david...

this is unbelievably racist


yes, Angelwhore - if you do not look 'normal' (by their definition) you will be searched. Same thing happened to a friend of mine, he almost missed his flight because of it. Conform!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

"The process is not static. The criteria may change as intelligence reports change," said Jorge Martinez, a spokesman for the justice department.

well that's certainly handy.

shotamoose

I wonder will they be searching white visitors from Arab or Muslim countries? Or Arab or Muslim visitors from European countries?

Frank Grimes

I wonder what the reaction would be if this was happening to American visitors to Arab or Muslim countries.

The Gopher

Jafar Panah?Abbas Kiarostami?????Excuse me but unless you are a fan of Iranian arthouse or whatever they are hardly as well known as Steven Spielberg are they?Fame has nothing to do with it-a would be Tunisian terrorist arrested in a plot to destroy US European embassys was a former German foootball player in the first division.Admittedly his career didnt last long but he could still be classed as"famous"under your defination.
Im no racist but there is nothing wrong with these techniques.If i were an Arab I wouldnt care if I was politely given extra attention due to my race-if a gang of Arab terrorists hijack my plane for a suicide mission theyre not going to say"Hey comrade this is a suicide mission but we brought a parachute for any muslim innocents to use.Here you go".Ill be dead with the rest of the passengers.Arabs complaining about this should grow up-they are at as much a risk as any passengers.
Shootamoose-Yes they would check european muslims.Richard Reid,Zacarious Mossaoui are two European muslims who have been held in plots.

Frank Grimes

The Gopher, are you trying to say what the US is doing isn't racist/prejudicial?

Dun

It can be enough of an ordeal coming through security in an airport without being fingerprinted and photographed. The clasp on my belt set off the metal detector in Venice airport and I felt like a criminal.

Couldn't imagine how I'd feel if I was being profiled cause I might be a terrorist.

Originally posted by adnans
and my passport photo looks convincingly terrorist like

Doesn't everyone? I certainly do

pro_gnostic_8

Can we look at this in perspective. This is not an infringement of some basic human right but merely a minor inconvenience for those involved. There are no summary detentions here...... no internal body searches, no hostile interrogations with a bright light shining in your eyes.

These security measures are a reasonable response to an obvious threat to public safety and a response to the demands of an edgy populace. Let's not forget that 12 months ago the lives of 3,000 human beings were snuffed out as a consequence of proper controls and protocols not being in place. Some may see this present procedure as evidence of paranoia or as being xenaphobic, but I consider it a rational reaction to a clear and present danger.

The stopping and searching for weapons of Hi-Ace vans heading to Traveller funerals is now a common occurence ........................ is this another example of "ethnic profiling " or a prudent pre-emptive measure to prevent bloodspilling?

Frank Grimes

This is not an infringement of some basic human right but merely a minor inconvenience for those involved.

It could be called an inconvenience if it was happening to everyone entering the States. It's not however.
As was posted earlier, when the Jews were made wear the star of David, was that just a minor annoyance for them?
How would you feel if it was every Irish person entering the UK getting the same treatment?
Obviously we're all in IRA, just as much as evey Muslim or Arab is a fanatical terrorist.

Sand

when the Jews were made wear the star of David, was that just a minor annoyance for them?

It was a method that the nazis used to deliberately alienate and belittle Jews - for no other reason at all, a step on the path to planning and carrying out the holocaust. The US isnt introducing this measure for kicks, neither is its long term goal the extermination of all arabs - the implied connection between airport security and the nazis treatment of the jews is a little....over the top.

Simple fact is if the US had been specifically checking arab passengers on flights theyd probably have prevented the 9/11 attacks and the deaths of thousands - given the rather surprising arabic makeup of the arabic nationalist/Islamic fundamentalist terrorist team. And thats the intended goal- not humiliation, not alienation, not elimination- but to prevent further terrorist attacks. Makes sense to me.

How would you feel if it was every Irish person entering the UK getting the same treatment? Obviously we're all in IRA, just as much as evey Muslim or Arab is a fanatical terrorist.

Being Irish doesnt mean youre an Irish republican. However Irish Republicans tend to be Irish, so if you have to decide who youre going to search when looking for Irish Republicans youre going to tend to look out more for Irish people than for Kenyans, weirdly enough. Im Irish and I couldnt give a flying feck if security wants to ensure my and other passengers safety. If its not wholly unreasonable and can help to prevent more terrorist attacks like Omagh or Warrington then Im all for it.

dahamsta

I wonder what the reaction would be if this was happening to American visitors to Arab or Muslim countries.

I think the future tense may be more appropriate.

adam

Dun

Originally posted by Sand
It was a method that the nazis used to deliberately alienate and belittle Jews

I'm sure it's not deliberate, but think what it must look like to Americans. Would it not be enough to make them think, 'well there must be something wrong with them'.

And no, I'm not saying they can't think for themselves. It's human nature to be suspicious.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by daveirl
Well would you be happy if everyone from Ireland had been fingerprinted etc, upon entering the UK during the troubles?

I'd like to know that too.
There was allot more behind the September 11th attacks than just them not checking Arab passengers. The American authorities failed in other areas, which ultimately led up to what happened.

Sand

Im Irish and I couldnt give a flying feck if security wants to ensure my and other passengers safety. If its not wholly unreasonable and can help to prevent more terrorist attacks like Omagh or Warrington then Im all for it.

pro_gnostic_8

I see. So while

"It could be called an inconvenience if it was happening to everyone else entering the States" it is a big deal because it applies to Muslims/Arabs

Thing is, I think America has reacted with laudable restraint in the aftermath of Sept 11th. Most other countries, had they been the target of of such an act-of-war attack would have responded in a far more pro-active way.

Like it or not, a not-inconsiderable number of Muslims view the West in general and the U.S. in particular as the Enemy. It is not only justifiable but is incumbent upon the U.S. in my opinion to defend itself and its citizens against the possibility of further attack.

WIth reference to your British analogy, I would understand and accept a similar level of security if that country was under attack by the IRA. Indeed, during the 70's/80's when bombs were exploding in Birminghams Bullring and elsewhere on the U.K. mainland such security measures were in force and I don't think any reasonable person could have complained. If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
I see. So while

"It could be called an inconvenience if it was happening to everyone else entering the States" it is a big deal because it applies to Muslims/Arabs

I think it's discrimination, by saying it's an inconvience you are acting like they're being ask a few questions.

Like it or not, a not-inconsiderable number of Muslims view the West in general and the U.S. in particular as the Enemy.

What are you basing this on? Do you actually know any Muslims? Or are you basing this on the rantings of fanatics that we see in the media?
Any Muslim I know have a problem with certain US foreign policy alright e.g Palestine or the Afghan "campaign".
They do not view the American people as "the enemy".
I would share these views, should I be finger printed if I ever go to the states?


Saying that a great deal of Muslims hold the views of Al Qaeda or the like, is no different than saying we're all in the IRA because we're Irish.

RampagingBadger

I spent 8 weeks of this summer in Oman (which is a very Islamic country). I'd firstly like to say that almost everyone I met was more than capable of making the distinction between the actions of the american government and actual wishes of individual american/westerners. However the regulation of the movement of foreigners in and out of their country was considered perfectly normal. I think the visa requirements and restrictions that applied to westerners entering these countries are considerably more draconian than those proposed for arab citizens entering the US. It also has to be said that while very few people in these countries agree with Al-Quaeda all the members of Al-Quaeda seem to come from that particular ethnic extraction. The intention of these proposals is not to alienate Arabs but meerly to try prevent a repeat of September 11 like actions. Doubtless they'll be lifted once the threat from Islamic terrorism subsides. While I'd agree that it's not a solution, if it goes any way towards preventing similar crimes I'm all in favour of it.

Victor

This type of profiling will find some of the possible terrorists, however profiling doesn't always work and often renders the profile targets hostile to authority and in some cases supportive of the terrorists / criminals.

The typical "terrorist" had been young, male, "often" of Arab extraction, obstensibly travelling alone. Secondary signs were tickets paid for in cash shortly before the flight, nervous or agitated passengers, passengers who are unusually quite or loud, passengers with little luggage, passengers arriving for check-in or boarding last, on long-haul / international flights. This profile would have stopped less than a third of the hi-jackings in the last 2-3 years. All the terrorists need to do is work around the profiling, using older operatives, mingling with families or travelling in larger groups and being "Mr. Average".

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Let's not forget that 12 months ago the lives of 3,000 human beings were snuffed out as a consequence of proper controls and protocols not being in place.

First off the problem was there was virtually no security on internal flights, it was like getting a bus at Bus Aras. Secondly, thsi can not be considered "proper control".

Originally posted by RampagingBadger
all the members of Al-Quaeda seem to come from that particular ethnic extraction.

Like the ones of American, British and French nationality and of Caucasian, Hispanic or North African extraction?

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Victor

Like the ones of American, British and French nationality and of Caucasian, Hispanic or North African extraction?

Aw, c'mon Vic........... Badger was speaking in the context of 9/11, and well you know it!

The world and his wife are aware that nineteen - bar none - of the hijacking crew were Arab muslims.